DA Vs. Aggressor Merits (Math/logic Heavy and long)

[Tokitoki]

Re: DA Vs. Aggressor Merits (Math/logic Heavy and long)

When you are trying to speed kill an HNM, though, your goal is to be able to keep your Haste gear on with your normal food (mine in this case is meat). But using a Haste Setup with meat you will naturally have a lower accuracy rate, no argument in that, but this is where Agressor merits help.
Some people may say "Oh, if you're trying to do a speed kill it should be dead in xx amount of time," but that is not always the case. This is where the Aggressor merits start to kick in more, where ideally you are still using a Haste Setup with meat, have Madrigal from a BRD, and have Bregressor up for (hopefully) the majority of the fight.
Madrigal is not going to get you to capped acc, as you can see on merit mobs as an example. Even on merit mobs, which admittedly have varying AGI and Evasion, you can use Haste + Meat and have Madrigal but not always hit the acc cap. Taking that same basis and putting it to HNMs that have higher base AGI and Evasion you are even less likely to hit the acc cap.

EDIT: Also about Swords, even offhanding a Joy or Ridill to an Axe will make your accuracy suffer slightly. In this case the lower base damage, lower base accuracy, and lower base attack will all benefit from having Bergressor up as much as possible while still increasing DoT from the Mainhand Axe.

[Amele]

Re: DA Vs. Aggressor Merits (Math/logic Heavy and long)

again though, it's not like warrior doesn't have aggressor without meriting it.

the question is whether +5% double attack is better or worse than 5 merits worth of recast reduction on aggressor.

quite frankly, Hank's numbers have me convinced that if you're going to go 'all the way' in one of the two, that DA is the way to go (esp. if you use axe/axe or gaxe)

[Sevv]

Re: DA Vs. Aggressor Merits (Math/logic Heavy and long)

again though, it's not like warrior doesn't have aggressor without meriting it.

Same goes with Double Attack.

the question is whether +5% double attack is better or worse than 5 merits worth of recast reduction on aggressor.
quite frankly, Hank's numbers have me convinced that if you're going to go 'all the way' in one of the two, that DA is the way to go (esp. if you use axe/axe or gaxe)

We can all agree on the fact that, this will not be decided here at all.

[Amele]

Re: DA Vs. Aggressor Merits (Math/logic Heavy and long)

Same goes with Double Attack.

not that anyone has been implying otherwise throughout this thread (it being almost entirely about hitting the accuracy cap and not actually about dot comparisons.)

[Sevv]

Re: DA Vs. Aggressor Merits (Math/logic Heavy and long)

My view is axe/sword berserk/aggressor axe/axe berserk/double attack.

About as simple as it goes I'm sticking with my view still.


Merit Pt For Man-Eater/ Joyeuse (ridill)

Berserk and Aggressor will provide a better parse.


Merit Pt for Wood/Man or Man/Jug

Berserk and Double Attack will do better.

Merits are situational, per person and per what you use. I will only /slap someone who merits defender.

[Tokitoki]

Re: DA Vs. Aggressor Merits (Math/logic Heavy and long)

And with Brutal Earring you already have a 15% DA rate, which is enough for me to warrant using Full Bergressor merits.

[Sevv]

Re: DA Vs. Aggressor Merits (Math/logic Heavy and long)

my gear set looks like this

Main: Man-Eater
Off: Joyeuse
Ammo: Bomb Core
Head: Walhra Turban ---> Adaman Celeta (ws)
L.Ear: Brutal ----> Triumph Earring (ws)
R.Ear: Suppa ----> Triumph Earring (ws)
Neck: Pcc
Body: Hauberk
Back: Amemet Mantle +1
Hands: War Af2 ----> Hecatomb Mittens (ws)
L.Ring: Rajas
R.Ring: Sniper
Waist: Swift Belt ----> Potent Belt (ws)
Legs: Byakko's Haidate
Feet: Unicorn Leggings


good amount of double attack, 271 sword skill and 285 axe skill. Kind of why I'm going ber/agg more for the hnm side of things and that i off hand sword.

[Tokitoki]

Re: DA Vs. Aggressor Merits (Math/logic Heavy and long)

My setups atm are in my sig. I have 3 Bergresoor Merits, capped crit capped axe. After I cap bergressor I'm capping sword and using my Joyeuse for merits. For HNM I'll be keeping my Woodville's or possibly buy a Juggy.

[Hankthetank]

Re: DA Vs. Aggressor Merits (Math/logic Heavy and long)

When you are trying to speed kill an HNM, though, your goal is to be able to keep your Haste gear on with your normal food (mine in this case is meat). But using a Haste Setup with meat you will naturally have a lower accuracy rate, no argument in that, but this is where Agressor merits help.

If you use the same setup on HNM and merits you fail. You dress for the situation, you can't honestly tell me than having Agressor merits is all you need to TP HMNs. You need a different setup for HNM than you for merits, really and seriously. Learn to dress youerself for the occasion, you'll be a better War for it.

Some people may say "Oh, if you're trying to do a speed kill it should be dead in xx amount of time," but that is not always the case. This is where the Aggressor merits start to kick in more, where ideally you are still using a Haste Setup with meat, have Madrigal from a BRD, and have Bregressor up for (hopefully) the majority of the fight.

Isn't the defenition of a speed kill to kill it fast? Kinda of a gimpy Speed kill if it takes you 40 minutes no? If you aren't killing it faster than you could with a SC burst setup why are you TP burning it? Once again you are getting 7 miuntes an HOUR. Nothing people TP burn takes an HOUR so you aren't even getting the full extra 7 MINUTES.

Madrigal is not going to get you to capped acc, as you can see on merit mobs as an example. Even on merit mobs, which admittedly have varying AGI and Evasion, you can use Haste + Meat and have Madrigal but not always hit the acc cap. Taking that same basis and putting it to HNMs that have higher base AGI and Evasion you are even less likely to hit the acc cap.

First if Madrigal isn't gettting you to cap on MERIT mobs how do you expect me to believe your EXTRA 7 MINUTES AN HOUR are making the differance (Compare Mad to Agressor not that big a differance)? Second who says hitting the ACC cap is the best thing for DoT? Now in regards to HNMs, here is some easy math for ya:
Whats the added Atk from Dual Min campared to the added Attack from Hedgehog Pie (which is my meat of choice).
Whats the added ACC from dual Mad compared to Sushi?
Are you still really trying to say that aggressor merits allow you to eat meat on HNMs where you can't without it? Do you really think you don't need a different gear setup for HNMs? HNMs are not Merit party mobs, you CANNOT wear the same gear and say "Well I got aggressor merits so its all good".

EDIT: Also about Swords, even offhanding a Joy or Ridill to an Axe will make your accuracy suffer slightly. In this case the lower base damage, lower base accuracy, and lower base attack will all benefit from having Bergressor up as much as possible while still increasing DoT from the Mainhand Axe.

If you need more acc in merit parties once again you need to suck less or eat sushi. Sushi os not automatically gimp, there are camps where even with my gear and merits I still eat sushi. Meats the goal but just by virtue of eatting meat you aren't going to automactically not suck. And they benfit HOW? I got a page of math of real numbers showing the opposite. Joyeuse offhand benefits MORE from DA merits than agressor merits.

About as simple as it goes I'm sticking with my view still.
Merit Pt For Man-Eater/ Joyeuse (ridill)
Berserk and Aggressor will provide a better parse.

WRONG. Joyeuse benefits more from DA/Zerk merits. I did the numbers. I'll worry about a ridill when I gt one. But you are more than intitled to stick to an incorrect view you can't even support.
"I'm still sticking to my view" = I can't possibly support my opinion anymore or come up with a decent counterpoint so I am just going to repeat myself.

Merit Pt for Wood/Man or Man/Jug
Berserk and Double Attack will do better.

It's not even close with dual axe, not by a long shot.

And with Brutal Earring you already have a 15% DA rate, which is enough for me to warrant using Full Bergressor merits.

And since I actually know how to dress myself for different situations, I don't need to rely on aggressor to not suck which is more than enough to merit Double Attack and actually make myself better.

L.Ear: Brutal ----> Triumph Earring (ws)

You are kidding me right? Who swaps out Brutal for 2 str? You just all credibility in my book.

good amount of double attack, 271 sword skill and 285 axe skill. Kind of why I'm going ber/agg more for the hnm side of things and that i off hand sword.

Define good? You are opting for a subpar merit catagory that has little to no effect on your overall preformance with the justification that you think you are good now? Why bother meriting at all then?

My setups atm are in my sig. I have 3 Bergressor Merits, capped crit capped axe. After I cap bergressor I'm capping sword and using my Joyeuse for merits. For HNM I'll be keeping my Woodville's or possibly buy a Juggy

So you don't have capped Berserk or Aggressor merits. You have 0 sword merits and decided yet feel you can say:

EDIT: Also about Swords, even offhanding a Joy or Ridill to an Axe will make your accuracy suffer slightly. In this case the lower base damage, lower base accuracy, and lower base attack will all benefit from having Bergressor up as much as possible while still increasing DoT from the Mainhand Axe.

How could you possibly know? You are just spouting back what you hear without any experiance in the matter.
I have a full page of math, and endless parses of myself against other fully merited warriors that have 5/5 Bergressor merits. How much weight would you give a person who wants to comment on the effectiveness of merits they don't have on weapons they don't use.

If you have an actual point or something to support your claims that Bergressor is better then please by all means post, I want to hear it. Make a good point and I'll acknowledge it. If there is a flaw in my math or logic once again by all means post, I'll take my hat off to you and admit I was wrong. But if you can't counter any points or support your arguements, why bother posting? You are merely parroting what the bandwagon Warrior community thinks without giving it any thought what so ever.
Sincerely,
Hankthetank

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: DA Vs. Aggressor Merits (Math/logic Heavy and long)

=/ This thread is a borderline flame fest now.

[Tokitoki]

Re: DA Vs. Aggressor Merits (Math/logic Heavy and long)

I'm not going to lie... I typed out a whole long post for you which included correcting your spelling as I read through it, countering said "facts" you know about me, and otehr such things, but in the process I seemed to have been logged out and my entire post was lost.

SO! Here's what we're gonna do. You're gonig to calm down and stop being so defensive and stop flaming people and assuming things about others. I'm going to ask to see these parses with some of the following questions in mind:

What was the outcome of each parse?
What merits did each person have?
Did you also have these merits?
What food did each person use?
Did anyone go AFK during a few fights during these parties?
Did everyone start attacking at the same time?
Were all participants similarly equipped or equipped the same exact way?
Did anyone use their 2hr which could skew results of the parses?
Did anyone die leaving them out of the parse for 5 minutes?
-----Did anyone die and continue to melee keeping them on the DoT cycle, but lowering it significantly?
Did everyone receive Haste?
Was anyone ever missed in the Haste cycle?

And as for your calculations:

What does the % DoT really translate to? If it is a percent more of the damage then the numbers over a normal merit party time frame could nearly be considered "meaningless."

For example:

In a normal merit party you fight well over a hundred mobs (in a good one at least). This could be equal to something like 25,000 damage? Can we agree on this? 2% of this 25,000 is 500 (25000*.02). 500 damage over the frame of over a hundred mobs could be less than 5 extra damage per mob.

So you really need to explain what your %DoT is better than just throwing it up on the post and saying it's the end-all, be-all calculation that proves DA is better than Bergressor.

[Lmnop]

Re: DA Vs. Aggressor Merits (Math/logic Heavy and long)

Calm down, fellas. Toki, you know what kind of suggestion you're making. You're basically saying "I want 10 parses that aren't actually exp as much as they are controlled science experiments" Which isn't feasible and you know it; thus you're really saying "Your parses will mean nothing" which really says "I will not be proven wrong." In Addition to the fact that by invalidating parses, you also invalidate Sev's claim.

I don't think this is really as much of a definite matter of right and wrong.

There's one factor that both sides of the argument are still missing: Not everyone has everything.

I, for instance, don't even have sea access -- let alone a Brutal Earring. This affects just how effective certain merits will be vs others for me. While I can say that if I do a lot of limbus and assaults and I never camped charby, that I'll be at my best building for axe/axe or... whatever; well that's dandy. But if I'm hardcore HNMist and I've been camping ground NMs for the last 2 years, then it's about expected that I have a Ridill by now.

Hank, stop tossing around the word "suck" and "fail."

I like you guys, let's not make this end regrettable.

[Tokitoki]

Re: DA Vs. Aggressor Merits (Math/logic Heavy and long)

I'm not asking for new parses, I'm asking to see the parses he is talking about and make him think about the questions I asked.

Little Edit(which turned into a large edit): I want to know the outcomes of the parses and see how his merits are really affecting his performance. While he knocks my setup and my merits, I have actually been able to outparse a Ridill WAR or two, but since I didn't know how to save or upload parses on that particular parser I can't show it. SO I guess you will just have to flame me and say I'm a liar about that too.

And for the record DVS Parse is better than that parser with the unhappy computer as an icon. <.< That unhappy computer parser is the one I used to use and not know how to save/upload from.