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  • #16
    Re: leveling a Two Handed weapon using warrior

    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten
    Hasso is 25 and Seigan is 35, I'm just amazed that days after that SAM update and months later I've never seen one WAR/SAM out there and very little information about how it stacks up.
    Yeah, I know. It's pretty sad >.> But hey, most peoples are stupid D:
    Originally posted by Vyuru
    /rng has always intrigued me, especially since I like to spam bolts, but what does it have to offer besides Sharp Shot? I haven't researched it that much.
    Mainly Accuracy Bonus (Accuracy/Ranged Accuracy +10), Widescan for pulling, Camouflage (lawl), and access to ranged WS.
    Originally posted by Vyuru
    I was also wondering, if I SA+Shield Break for example, or another Break WS, will that make it land for it's full potential? Or can it still get resisted?

    Shield Break looks good, but it is capped at -40 evasion. As you get higher in levels, the mobs that con IT will be even higher than before, is there a point where taking off 40 evasion from the mob just isn't as useful as it once was?
    Nah, it can still get resisted, but you can put out some pretty decent numbers (150-200) and it won't miss. It can also close a pretty decent Fusion. Anyways, wether or not -40 evasion is worth less the higher you go is a pretty tough question to answer, as nobody even knows of the Acc/Eva comparison is percentage or difference-based (the /check system would suggest that it's difference-based...) But, in any case, I doubt there ever comes a point where -40 Evasion stops being very useful, unless you're killing mobs in 30-45 seconds or something.
    Don't the stun spells from blu stand a decent chance of still being effective as well? You might be able to stun some of the mob's tp moves if so letting you avoid even more damage, for a time since even while stunned the mob retains it's tp.
    Their proc rate isn't too hot on ITs, and the only thing you can actually stun is Bomb Toss and Smite/Whirl of Rage anyways
    It is, part of the problem I'm having is trying to figure out which would be better at about level 60, and through the 50 range as well. War/thf offers good WS damage, but if my primary WS is Shield Break, that may not be as much of an issue. War/sam offers faster tp gain, and is more helpful to your DoT, which I think would be better if your primary WS is Shield Break.
    Yeah, I'd consider WAR/SAM to be better than /THF at 50 unless they're relying on you to close a skillchain for big damage.

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    • #17
      Re: leveling a Two Handed weapon using warrior

      As for Shield Break after level 60+ from my experience, I get better acc. from sushi then the evasion down from Shield Break. I don't have parser to prove it, but I actively switch between Axe + G.Axe, sushi and attack food when I level up WAR to level 60+, and that is the result I got.

      For WAR/SAM, I am wondering how would Axe + Shield hold up. Before I retired my WAR, I take the pride that I had cap both my G.Axe and Axe. Because both Axe and G.Axe can have different Skillchain option, and Break WS from G.Axe, I think it is good to have both weapons capped.

      Not only war/nin has DW to reduce weapon delay, but when they use WS with 2 axes, the off-hand weapon adds an extra hit to the WS too.

      For damage migration, war/nin has shadows since level 24, while war/sam has Third Eye until level 70 Seigan. Without Seigan, the usefulness of Third Eye is very limited.

      To be honest, how many WAR out there have SAM sub leveled? In the old days the war community encouraged players to have /mnk, /thf, /nin ready, cap both G.Axe + Axe. Subjob like /sam, /rng, /rng were consider situational or optional. With the bandwagon with "war/nin and dual axe only, tanking no thx, too lazy to level subjobs and not bother to cap G.Axe," I doubt current WAR population is ready for WAR/SAM.

      If the WAR population does not promote WAR/SAM, I don't think the non-WAR players in the party would even bother with WAR/SAM.
      Server: Quetzalcoatl
      Race: Hume Rank 7
      75 PLD, 75 SAM, 75 WAR, 75 NIN, 75 MNK, 65 BLU

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      • #18
        Re: leveling a Two Handed weapon using warrior

        Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
        Guess I'll ask this here:
        Has anyone really tried /SAM? I mean, really tried it extensively? I've seen mostly crutch arguments for /NIN elsewhere in such topics, but no real data that pertains to /SAM.

        that is what i really want to try too...go LFP for a few times as war/sam... you got the idea, inv come... {Ninja} {sub} {please}. I guess if you want to use this sub that only in friend party. And it cause problems too, in thicket mamools' ws and skoffin's TP ability can kill you espec if zerk is up, but it can work in mire on imp/flys/ect and in tree camp with pld tank I guess.

        but as far as my little testing goes its and awsome fun sub, tried it some coffer/skillup/besieged party, you just spam ws non stop

        hasso/rune chopper can be fun, i'm saving up for martial b. atm, cant wait to see how it goes with /sam.

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        • #19
          Re: leveling a Two Handed weapon using warrior

          We all know how flaky pick up parties can be. You never know when the PLD might decide to leave, and the only players seeking are some random melee DDs. Even after level 30 (when /THF gives you SA) and before level 48~50 (when /NIN can really start to shine, even without a 2nd blink tank to bounce hate with), /MNK can still be a nifty choice for filling a DD role. Why? Because you never know when you might be called upon to take over solo tanking duties. This would be especially true if your pick-up party is heading toward some far-away camp, where it would be time consuming for you to HP, change subs, and get back to camp.

          However, if you happen to be in a static, then that's probably not an issue.
          Lyonheart
          lvl 75 WAR, 75 BST, 75 BLM, 75 NIN, 47 SCH
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          • #20
            Re: leveling a Two Handed weapon using warrior

            keep your axe leveled. Even if you want to adhere to GA, you'll want those axes.

            you're already 30 war, I assume. /drg and /rng are at their unarguable high levels 20-30. Post 30, both can be viable, both require some work to make them so. /drg moreso. /rng has a lot of potential that just gets better when you add in a THF. The ability to use GA for damage and open Distortion for Thieves via Piercing Arrow is quite nice. You would want to try to cap your Marksmanship for this and carry an equip swap of as much R.acc and AGI as you can get your hands on (this isn't much for WAR). Level 40 gets you 10 in hands/feet though. That's nice.

            But then... I hit with my acid bolts 30-60% of the time as Elvaan THF, CAPPED C rank Marksmanship with every +R.acc piece of gear in the game, barring P Charm. Oh, and those slots were min-maxed so that if I wasn't getting loads of +R.acc, it was giving the biggest AGI payload available. Still not much improvement in hit rate. :/ I guess that was in the lowpoint of the RNG nerf though. Before they eased their uber-nerf.

            Anywho... /thf is definately incredible 30-50. /mnk is also very nice those levels (if you feel like tanking) and we've argued to death what /nin offers. It's definately a sub you'll want ready. And it'll see more use than /mnk.

            50+ is interesting though. First off, war/thf SA Sturmwind will still compete with DW2 Dual Viking War/nin 50-55. You may have to equip yourself right (I macro'd in rediculous +STR gears >.>) but it pays off. You hit hard enough to keep up with any war/nin. One of my favorite parties in the 50-55 range was me as war/nin using Smash Axe to open for a war/thf's SA Sturmwind. The resulting Fragmentation was always glorious. The war/thf would tank 'til the mob died, often. But the SC/MB was so great that it didn't matter.

            As of level 55, it's hard to argue with Rampage. At least for me, I went from 3-400 SA sturmwinds to 2-400 Rampages with higher DoT. All Axe WSs prior to it did like 100ish damage (even Smash axe, hence I didn't mind using it).

            Level 60 is Raging Rush. Like Celeal said, it's not consistent enough to be stacking with SATA (Btw, Vyuru, TA adds no damage when subbed, but seems to have full hate transference ability, unless there's some testing I'm not aware of). It'll always hit for right around 100 dmg less than Rampage (Rampage does 4-600 on crawlers, my RRs do 3-500, etc), so it's not exactly as potent. Which is depressing. The good news is that the /sam DD benefits are technically better than /nin. 50+, the only reason to sub NIN is protection, IMO. /thf will keep up in damage for 5 levels, but /sam should keep up in damage up 'til 60, where it should statistically surpass /nin.

            15% more damage (same tp rate) versus 10% more damage and 10% more tp (just from the melee-haste) +15% tp via Store TP (Can I add this and the haste together for 25% more tp? Or is that mathmatically incorrect?) and then 60 free tp every 3 minutes.

            The things that are harder to measure (still comparing /NIN to /SAM) are the gross overpoweredness of one-handed weapon stats as they compare to the +10 acc from Hasso and the +5 STR you'd get from it.

            And then there's Utsusemis vs Seigan. But this is a bit of a cross-over, as Seigan Counters have a pretty good proc rate and can actually be used as another avenue of increasing damage output.

            At any rate, I've only done /sam once in party post update. I was lucky in that I got a PLD party leader who said "I'm interested to see how it'd work out." But I'd like to try it again on a mob that's not Imps. Expect lots of details from me in the coming weeks (I'll resume leveling in ~2 weeks if all goes well, and I'll prolly /sam most of it from 70-75).
            "And if he left off dreaming about you, where do you suppose you'd be?"

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            • #21
              Re: leveling a Two Handed weapon using warrior

              From level 25+ to 40+, the advantage of Shield Break + attack food (like Rice Drumplings) is that the DD WAR can switch to emergency tank with Defender: The attack food bonus can overcome the negative 25% attack of Defender, while Shield Break take care the accuracy for WAR to hold hate during emergency. That gives enough Defense and DoT (Hate) to do the task. It works for war/mnk, war/nin, war/thf...

              You can step in for emergency tanking with Sushi at early levels, but it does not work well with Defender. Armor Break is not suitable for mob like Crawler or Carb which spam Def+ buffs. Weapon Break's usage is very limited for a DD WAR. Full Break comes into play too late.

              At later level when sushi is very practical, I would expect the mage to sleep the mob.
              Server: Quetzalcoatl
              Race: Hume Rank 7
              75 PLD, 75 SAM, 75 WAR, 75 NIN, 75 MNK, 65 BLU

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              • #22
                Re: leveling a Two Handed weapon using warrior

                You don't get the grossly overpowered stat 1h weapons until higher levels, I think. Unless you're counting Viking Axe as one of them.

                As far as the TP of /SAM, I think adding the bonuses is incorrect, you should multiply them. You get 10% more swings, each of which gives 15% more TP (is that correct? It seems like a lot) if it connects. And you're neglecting Zanshin, to boot (unlike some other jobs, you aren't giving up double attack to get it - you have *both*). I don't have any data on Zanshin proc rates though, so neglecting any difference caused by acc I make it
                1.1 (number of extra swings) x 1.15 (extra TP per hit) = 1.265 times the TP gain of someone whose sub doesn't provide any TP gain benefit, from just Hasso and Store TP (meaning you will actually get more because Zanshin will proc at *some* nonzero rate).

                If I recall correctly, /NIN doesn't in fact provide any TP gain benefit, since unlike Hasso's haste (and gear, song and spell hastes), DW haste *does* reduce TP gained per hit by the same amount that it improves delay. So even before meditate (and therefore also before there is any skill gap between axe and gaxe) you can confidently expect to out-TP a similarly geared WAR/NIN by a significant margin. Basically the only TP tricks they have are DA and Aggressor, which you have too in addition to your /SAM traits and abilities. And that's assuming they never cast in combat, which would actually *lower* their TP gain and DoT. All your /SAM abilities have negligible "casting time".


                P.S. As I finish this post I suddenly remember that TP per hit as a function of delay is not linear, and therefore the "base" TP gain per unit time is not necessarily the same for different weapons, so that would have to be multiplied in too. I don't remember which weapon it would favor, though.
                Defeated: Maat, Divine Might, Fenrir, Kirin, Cactrot Rapido, Xolotl, Diabolos Prime, Kurrea, 9/10 Dynamis Bosses (missing Tav), Promathia, Proto-Ultima, Proto-Omega, 4 Jailers, Apocalypse Nigh, 6/6 Nyzul Bosses
                RDM90, PLD90, DRG90, COR90, SCH90, BLU54
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                • #23
                  Re: leveling a Two Handed weapon using warrior

                  Well, 15% of what, 13ish TP per hit is about... +1.95tp per hit, seems about right. Hah, boosting ranged attacks up to 18 TP per hit :D

                  Even if TA provides full hate transfer, I think I may be more inclined to go with war/sam, partly because more information on it would be nice, and partly because it seems interesting. Also if I go as war/thf, which while not bad, does kind of stick me into one role in the party. War/sam offers a little of the job flexibility that I like.

                  Once you get Full Break, which Break WS should you use? Full Break is weaker, but hits across all fronts, and looks pretty nice IMO.


                  You have the right to remain silent, anything you say can and will be misqouted and then used against you.

                  I don't have a big ego, it just has a large mouth.

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                  • #24
                    Re: leveling a Two Handed weapon using warrior

                    From the info I read for Full Break, the debuff is tier 3, which means tier 1 buff like Cocoon or Scissor Guard cannot override Full Break.
                    Server: Quetzalcoatl
                    Race: Hume Rank 7
                    75 PLD, 75 SAM, 75 WAR, 75 NIN, 75 MNK, 65 BLU

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                    • #25
                      Re: leveling a Two Handed weapon using warrior

                      1-10: WAR/WHM to reduce downtime

                      10-20: WAR/MNK for boost and highest possible HP/VIT.

                      20-30: WAR/RNG owns all. +10 acc/racc is great, especially if you want to use
                      acid bolts with WAR's crappy D rating in Marksmanship.

                      30-50: WAR/THF here. Sneak Attack Sturmwind is where it's at! >:3 Your
                      fragmentation chains (closing) will easily rival a THF's Viper Bite.

                      50+ : From here on, it's either /SAM, /THF or /NIN. If you want to go GAX all
                      the way, I'd say /SAM for Hasso at least until lv 60, and even then.


                      As for what weapons, stick mainly with GAX. Missing with a two hander really sucks >< and it's your A+ rated weapon. Sturmwind owns all the other 2-handed weaponskills for a good long time anyway. But if you want to be picky, you can always carry a Polearm around in the event that you're facing down fliers.
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                      • #26
                        Re: leveling a Two Handed weapon using warrior

                        -yes, DW lowers tp gained/swing and thus doesn't actually increase overall tp gain.

                        -I think the (semi) recent tp change made the weapons more uniform, thus throwing out any inconsistencies.

                        -war/nin 55-60 is inevitable. rampage simply has no equal (and remember, this is coming from a career war/nin hater).

                        -10% extra tp/swing for Store TP I, 15% for II according to FFXIclopedia. I'm inclined to believe it. I get ~15ish tp/swing with Greataxe.

                        -no reason not to carry around the best Polearm for your level since you already have it capped. In fact, if you plan on leveling WAR after getting some merits under your belt, having an effective A rank Polearm on WAR could be quite impressive 49+ (Mighty Strikes Penta Thrust with 300% tp should theoretically be much more potent than Rampage under same conditions. Now toss in Souleater :D).

                        And yeah, Karinya pretty much just pinned down why when you look at subjobs by themselves, /sam is hands down better. In no way shape or form can /nin approach it. What's not accounted for is over-powered one handed weapons and over-powered one handed Weapon Skills.
                        "And if he left off dreaming about you, where do you suppose you'd be?"

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                        • #27
                          Re: leveling a Two Handed weapon using warrior

                          Originally posted by Karinya
                          You don't get the grossly overpowered stat 1h weapons until higher levels, I think. Unless you're counting Viking Axe as one of them.
                          This is very true, particularly for WAR/NINs - axe DMG/sec stops progressing so well past 48.

                          Lv.48 Viking Axe --------------- DMG/sec: 7.83 | Accuracy +10
                          Lv.50 Tct.Mag. Espadon ------- DMG/sec: 8.87 | Attack +12
                          Lv.52 Tct. Mag. Espadon +2--- DMG/sec: 9.71 | Attack +12
                          Lv.56 Darksteel Axe +1 ------- DMG/sec: 9.18
                          Lv.60 Tungi --------------------- DMG/sec: 9.46
                          Lv.60 Bastard Sword +1 ------ DMG/sec: 10.23
                          Lv.66 Espadon +1 ------------- DMG/sec: 10.27 | Attack +7
                          Lv.68 Acha d'Armas ----------- DMG/sec: 9.58 | STR+2 DEX+1 | Rare/Ex
                          Lv.69 Nazdiak +1 -------------- DMG/sec: 9.31 | DEX+3
                          Lv.70 Juggernaut --------------- DMG/sec: 9.58 | STR+3 Attack+30 | Rare
                          Lv.70 Company Sword -------- DMG/sec: 10.45 (11.59 in full party)
                          Lv.70 Joyeuse ------------------ DMG/sec: 14.07 w/ DA | 50% non-stacking DA rate (125% TP gain w/ DW) | Piercing hits | Rare/Ex
                          Lv.73 Maneater ------------------DMG/sec: 10.65 w/ Latent | STR+5 (+1 DMG to both weapons)

                          Past level 50 bastard swords are always one step ahead of axes in terms of DMG/sec; if anything, they're the overpowered one-handers. Even Juggernaut is lacking in DMG/sec (though, of course, it makes up for it by having +30 Attack which counts for both weapons.) A WAR with sword merits (even with just 4) would most likely perform better with Sword/Sword than Axe/Sword, and better with Axe/Sword than Axe/Axe.
                          Originally posted by Celeal
                          From the info I read for Full Break, the debuff is tier 3, which means tier 1 buff like Cocoon or Scissor Guard cannot override Full Break.
                          Actually, it's tier 2, but yes, it'll overpower the great majority of mob +Attack/Defense/Evasion/Accuracy buffs. As for Full Break vs Shield Break, I guess it depends on mob and party setup. If the mob is capable of buffing itself, Full Break would be a better choice; if there's a RNG or THF that can land Acid Bolts well (don't know how well WAR would be able to land them with D skill in the 50's, and I also know that sometimes marksmanship falls behind,) then Shield Break takes the lead. Under other circumstances, it's sort of a toss-up I suppose, since Full Break is kinda half-and-half for DD'ing, but it'd be worth it if you have a PLD tank (-12.5% Attack isn't as much as +25% Defense, but that's still enough for me to want to use Sushi over Def food.)

                          Also, yeah, like Karinya said the proper way would be to multiply the bonuses (although 15 Store TP doesn't translate perfectly into 15% faster TP, since TP gain is segmented rather than continuous, especially so for two-handers.) Also, yeah, like Lmnop said the TP patch made TP gainining speed a lot more consistent for mid delays and high delays, while bringing low delays closer to the norm (sub-180 Delays still get TP faster if you go low enough, but less so than before the patch.) And yes, Store TP II is 15%.

                          Having merited polearm would sooooo rock on colibris.
                          Last edited by Armando; 01-19-2007, 05:22 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Re: leveling a Two Handed weapon using warrior

                            Full Break would be a better choice; if there's a RNG or THF that can land Acid Bolts well (don't know how well WAR would be able to land them with D skill in the 50's, and I also know that sometimes marksmanship falls behind,) then Shield Break takes the lead. Under other circumstances,
                            Ohh, that's something I didn't think about, do Acid Bolts stack with Full Break or does Full Break overwrite Acid Bolts since FB is level 2 and AB are lvl 1 debuffs? Shortening since I have to run to class in two minutes

                            Having merited polearm would sooooo rock on colibris.
                            I had a party once in king ranperre's tomb, me drg/war with a holy lance I think, the war/nin pulled out the lvl 50 lance that they can use, she was almost my equal in damage, it was really amazing. She also had really good gear, almost absurdly good gear in comparison with the other wars I've partied with in that level range, but even so it was an eye opener as to what a good war can do.


                            You have the right to remain silent, anything you say can and will be misqouted and then used against you.

                            I don't have a big ego, it just has a large mouth.

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                            • #29
                              Re: leveling a Two Handed weapon using warrior

                              I used Full Break on an Eruca in Mt. Zhayolm for a quick and dirty test. He used Cocoon and gained the effect of defense boost (it didn't say "has no effect").

                              I'm not gonna say there wasn't an error in that, and I really don't wanna believe it's true. But I don't think Full Break can prevent mobs from buffing now (if it ever could). I'm certain that it overrides existing effects though, just like the rest of the Breaks.

                              And yeah, I have a feeling that Full break would make Acid Bolts have "No effect." I'll test it when I get the chance (hard to find something that'll live through Full Break yet able for me to actually land my poor acid bolts on).
                              "And if he left off dreaming about you, where do you suppose you'd be?"

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                              • #30
                                Re: leveling a Two Handed weapon using warrior

                                Originally posted by Lmnop View Post
                                I used Full Break on an Eruca in Mt. Zhayolm for a quick and dirty test. He used Cocoon and gained the effect of defense boost (it didn't say "has no effect").

                                I'm not gonna say there wasn't an error in that, and I really don't wanna believe it's true. But I don't think Full Break can prevent mobs from buffing now (if it ever could). I'm certain that it overrides existing effects though, just like the rest of the Breaks.

                                And yeah, I have a feeling that Full break would make Acid Bolts have "No effect." I'll test it when I get the chance (hard to find something that'll live through Full Break yet able for me to actually land my poor acid bolts on).
                                If that is the case, I will go check it out in my next party too. (Just level up to 65 in 2 hours ago ^^)

                                P.S.
                                I my last party I tried WAR/SAM for 3 hours: WAR/NIN first 3 hours in party, then reapply sanction in town and secretly job change to WAR/SAM XD. I leveled from 63 to 65 in the same party for 6 hours. WAR/SAM is so awesome! Even with Axe + Shield with WAR/SAM is very solid (for trying to keep both G.Axe + Axe capped).

                                WAR/SAM with G.Axe completely owns in TP gain. I can actually Skillchain in melee heavy party (RDM, BRD, PLD, WAR/SAM, RNG/NIN, SAM/THF), and have enough TP for Armor Break when timer of Beserk or Warcry is not ready.

                                Party disbanded after I leveled up, haven't cap weapons to unlock Full Break or Mistral Axe yet. I will miss WAR/SAM if I am forced to use WAR/NIN in exp parties again v.v
                                Server: Quetzalcoatl
                                Race: Hume Rank 7
                                75 PLD, 75 SAM, 75 WAR, 75 NIN, 75 MNK, 65 BLU

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