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lvl 75 War/Nin vs 75 Nin/War Tank HNM

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  • #16
    It's really depends...in HNM, or more of a case of how many members you have.

    The more members, the more firepower, the more hate you have to sustain. Tanking fafnir/nig you need iron hate, So paladins.

    Kiting kings and Gods, you need Hp, geting 1 shotted is not a good thing.

    Well War/nin's are like the middle of the spectrum. They can wear heavy class armor, with provoke and shadows, but they don't have the super def of paladins, or hate control or the evasion of nin's.

    Honestly, war/nins are better for smaller pt set up NMs in between the nin evasion rate, and the 1 shot problem.

    Large scale is usually pld to be safe. Small scale is Nin, for resource control.

    The middle is War/nins with their HP, decent defense and shadows. The power to control damage, but not get 1 shot-ed and end up in wiping the pt.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by kuu
      It's really depends...in HNM, or more of a case of how many members you have.
      It's a case of setup, not really numbers. Numbers only matter on baby HNMs or beastgod HNMs where it's best to take a NIN or two and a BRD. On alliance+ HNMs it just matters how your LS is set up. If you have a couple WHM/SMN or RDM/SMN free, PLD works really well with Aerial Armor rotation. Without Aerial rotation PLD gets chewed up. If you have BRDs to dual march/mambo/both then either WAR/NIN or NIN/WAR works about the same, it's mostly a preference/skill/gear issue.

      The more members, the more firepower, the more hate you have to sustain. Tanking fafnir/nig you need iron hate, So paladins.
      Plenty of LSes have used blinktanks on Fafhogg, it works fine. WAR/NIN using godset, AF, Joyeuse/Ridill, as much hate gear as possible, and double marched doesn't lose hate more than anything else, it's like 100 Fists basically.

      Kiting kings and Gods, you need Hp, geting 1 shotted is not a good thing.
      No god needs kited and Kirin only gets kited because of Stonega IV. You don't need to kite Kirin really, just be careful on hate and run like hell when his casting animations start. No god can truly one-shot anyone (except Stonega IV/Stone V) except Seiryu, and in eight months of HNM tanking as WAR/NIN I've only been truly one-shotted once, today actually, by a 1670 Fang Rush.

      Well War/nin's are like the middle of the spectrum. They can wear heavy class armor, with provoke and shadows, but they don't have the super def of paladins, or hate control or the evasion of nin's.
      NIN can't build to 30+ enmity. WAR builds hate better than NIN.

      Honestly, war/nins are better for smaller pt set up NMs in between the nin evasion rate, and the 1 shot problem.
      Reverse is true. The smaller the group, the better NIN tends to be. The larger the group, the better WAR tends to be.

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      • #18
        Lots of generalizing but, in the end it really is members.

        Pld's build hate at a good rate, while war's build hate in traditional way, and nin's don't build much hate at all.

        Reverse is true. The smaller the group, the better NIN tends to be. The larger the group, the better WAR tends to be.
        Smallest pts where HNMs favor nins in evasion. The limiting factor is the evasion rate.

        Small pt with war/nin is the trade off where nin's fail at, getting 1 shotted to death.

        's mostly a preference/skill/gear issue.
        Even good members, hate control becomes more erratic with more members. Though I suppose a LS full of smns wouldn't care squat for that ideal.

        You're proposing "tactics". It's a different concept. Tactics implies "work with what you have".

        Getting to that point is splitting hairs. Simple point before we even get to tactics is:
        If you get 1shotted due to eva rate you need a higher level, war's, plds,
        If eva rate is so low, you get a pld for hate.

        You're agruing based on "workings" while others are arguing based on ideals. They are two sides of the same coin, yet two different ideas. I can say, let's have 5 nins, 5 whms, and load up the rest with smn and just orgy said opponent. Where are you going to find that many smns?

        Edit: I don't mean 1shotted in the actual sense, I mean in the general sense where you're ear dirt before the first cure5 can come. This could be from 1 or more hits, in rapid sucession

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        • #19
          Originally posted by July

          What does a Nin have that a war/nin doesn't that will help tank better? Does more evasion pay off that much in the end?
          Evasion pays off greatly. Tanking HNMs with very little support, a War/nin is just going to get beat up on most of the HNMs. I discussed some of this in some other thread I forgot where already. But any way a level 69 nin tank > a level 75 war tank with very little support. With brd doing double march you can pretty much tank to the effectiveness of a nin but personally I find it not fun. On war/nin you'll be casting the blinks close to endlessly on most hnms. On ninja you dodge a significant amount over a war/nin.

          Key to hate control with ninja is not to get hit at all. Since ninja doesn't produce much hate, they can't afford to get hit because getting hit you lose hate.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Enoki1
            Evasion pays off greatly. Tanking HNMs with very little support, a War/nin is just going to get beat up on most of the HNMs. I discussed some of this in some other thread I forgot where already. But any way a level 69 nin tank > a level 75 war tank with very little support. With brd doing double march you can pretty much tank to the effectiveness of a nin but personally I find it not fun. On war/nin you'll be casting the blinks close to endlessly on most hnms. On ninja you dodge a significant amount over a war/nin.

            Key to hate control with ninja is not to get hit at all. Since ninja doesn't produce much hate, they can't afford to get hit because getting hit you lose hate.
            If by 'HNM' you mean Roc/Lumberjack/Simurgh/Serket/Amikiri/Behemoth/King Arthro then that's all true. If you mean Gods/land kings, not so much. WAR and NIN become essentially the same thing and need the same support and NIN EVA no longer becomes anything to depend on - if you go Scorp, blind/Bat earrings, Shiranui, Ungur Boomerang, Scout Rope/Evasion Torque/Bat Cape/whatever else, you can dodge more than WAR (which would be more than zero) but you will generate hate for shit. NIN has one more shadow, WAR generates a bit more hate, they both do about the same damage if they try to be a little aggressive, there aren't any huge differences between the two on real HNMs.

            WAR or NIN lacking support gets absolutely trashed on real stuff.

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            • #21
              Support is needed for almost all HNMs unless you got a stock of medicine that might over cost the drop.

              Assuming your war isn't decked out in weak gear, the war would have more defense, more vit, and maybe even twice the HP.

              defense and vit are sub to HP in HNM where the tank must live at all costs. That has always been the Nin's weak point.

              Finally the not so pointed out section of Wars are they they can wear the heavest armors, which depends on the tactics involved.

              There are certain NMs and not even HNMs that have alarming amounts of acc. My resent experiance is the NM gob in kufkal. He was pretty much raping a thf tank, the highest in evasion, which is very surpising.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by kuu
                Assuming your war isn't decked out in weak gear, the war would have more defense, more vit, and maybe even twice the HP.

                defense and vit are sub to HP in HNM where the tank must live at all costs. That has always been the Nin's weak point.
                In advance I'm not saying this is how I tank HNMs or how I think the best way to do it is. But NIN can wear that 72ish Gi-looking blue set with a fair bit of enmity+ and a great amount of -damage taken, they can wear Osode/Kabuto just like WAR, they have a higher base VIT than WAR, they can eat the same DEF/HP food as WAR, they can use the same Earth Staff (again, not saying that's the best way to do it).

                HP and enmity on real HNMs are both solid gold and more important than VIT/DEF IMO. In both these areas WAR wins easily. Good NIN can still do fine though. Both jobs are in effect the same tank at endgame when EVA really stops mattering. EVA build NIN is vastly overrated and mostly the stuff of legend, they don't hold hate well enough. ATK/STR build NIN does good damage on anything (can compete with MNK, WAR, RNG in exp, can even hit non-turtle HNMs OK), and they can build for HP/VIT/DEF/-damage with the exact same gear WAR can and get an extra shadow to boot, and some ninjitsus for help with hate. On truly hard stuff WAR and NIN are basically the same. Again it depends on what you're talking about. Serket is not truly hard and in that case where a NIN will just never get hit they're clearly better.

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                • #23
                  But NIN can wear that 72ish Gi-looking blue set with a fair bit of enmity+ and a great amount of -damage taken,
                  What are you talking about? there's no such thing. You mean the shock spike set?


                  On truly hard stuff WAR and NIN are basically the same. Again it depends on what you're talking about.
                  Not really, Using a spectrum nin will never compare to war in hit tank side as war will never compare to blink tank side, but on anything above and beyond you get a pld, for hate control and reliability.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by kuu
                    What are you talking about? there's no such thing. You mean the shock spike set?
                    He's clearly talking about the Arhats set, not rocket science lol...
                    【MNK 75 - WAR 75 - NIN 75 - BRD 75 - WHM 75】

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                    • #25
                      ooh that's back at lvl 64. It's not all that great end game. the phyical damage is pretty much offsetted.

                      I don't recall any lvl 72 damage reduction.

                      A war wearing equally darksteel set would be have more physical reduction and more money in the pocket.

                      But most don't do that for obvious reasons.

                      War's nins and pld have core differences, building equipment around them to try to make an arguement doesn't really work because the other side always has the same offset.

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                      • #26
                        I was wrong on level, sorry, but I agree with Russta, I figured it would be obvious. Anyways, I don't even remember what your original points were besides the ones I feel are wrong. I hate to trot this card out, but what is your experience? NIN do not take hits any harder than a WAR, they have higher base VIT and DEF isn't job effected, you build for it or you don't. Who takes hits hardest doesn't even matter, there are so few mobs where you actually need to gear for damage mitigation. Pretty much KB, Nidhogg, Kirin, COP dragons, that's it. Anything else you can tank naked if you feel like it, regardless of tank job. I can't even tell what you're arguing for, and yeah I went back and re-read. If you're just going for pointing out differences, then I don't think you're right - saying things like that WAR is better in small groups just runs completely counter to what NIN's strengths are versus WAR and vice versa.

                        On the whole getting one shotted argument, most true HNMs have bullshit they can pull out of their ass that floors anyone, Paladin included. Paladins aren't 'safer' than other tanks, the strategy is just simpler and less reliant on people knowing how to deal with blinktanking on hard stuff. There is no utterly safe tank, the best tank in the world eats Diaga III > triple attack > Razor Fang, Poisonga II > double attack > Tortoise Stomp, Fang Rush times whatever, and so on, it's no longer up to the tank, it's up to their support, because the tank is dead barring lucky damage resists or misses (turtle HNMs have reared up for Tortoise Stomp when I had no blinks up and Aggressor/Berserk fired and DD gear on, and missed - thanks, game!).

                        On gear offset being not worth talking about, you indirectly mention gear when you say NIN gets hit harder than WAR. I am just pointing out how NIN can get hit LESS hard than WAR - WAR cannot built for -40% physical damage without a Defending Ring it will never have, but NIN can, so that argument is dead in the water. And both jobs at endgame wear god set so...yeah.

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                        • #27
                          You throw out a lot of stuff.. but really, you're trying to overly complicate a simple arguement, which if i read correctly is properly equiped odds and ends will make everyone the same...

                          Which is true, but is splitting hairs to the basic ideal of uses of tanks.

                          I don't care for your situations, I can think of this and that situations as well and even throw in mass server hiccup if you want to talk about the rarity of defending ring and who gets one, and not...

                          Simply put the scale of tanks is blink tank [ nin <-> war <->pld] hp tank.

                          They are all used for different situations.

                          War/nins are good for small pts, and nin for smallEST pts. How you conoct one role to fit another is fine and dandy. But really...that's what job classes are for.

                          Talking about can and can not is not the same as talking about how and how not.

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