A new trick for THF/NINs?

[WishMaster3K]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

With people recently concerned about maximizing exp/hour, and willing to pay 3 mil for even FIVE accuracy or 3 STR, I'm shocked that not too many people want to simply cast the ninjutsu that makes mobs weaker to Thunder/Fire or w/e it is so that there are less resists. . .

But the moot point of this is that either way, it's unlikely that it will even matter, but the folly of the situation is that it wouldn't hurt either member. (3-4 seconds is one swing from a THF, not counting TripleAttack, meaning only 5 TP. . . it's not that big of a loss when THFs get very fast TP. . . .)

[Tokitoki]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

3-4 sec is more than 1 swing.

[Karinya]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

Yeah, well, there aren't that many Armandos in the game. Unfortunately.

I can't believe people are actually saying things like "BLMs shouldn't rely on other people lowering resists for them" - do you rely on other people provoking mobs off you? Healing you? Pulling mobs for you? If not, then you're probably doing something called "soloing". Party play is all about teamwork and supporting other party members. People who play in a party like they were soloing are a burden on other party members.

In my merit static I see half resists on Fusion and Light all the time (Uleguerand Kindred, Smolenkos, occasionally Molechs, all weak to light). Sometimes 3/4. And not all of those are even IT to a 75. If you think high level SCs aren't resisted, you're just not paying attention (or maybe you're fighting Toughs).

Yes, it would be better for a NIN to do this than a /NIN, especially after they have Ni. Want to bet how many ninjas actually *will* do it? Someone doing it is better than no one doing it.

I wonder if these same people would also consider Threnody useless? If so, I hope they don't play bard. I had a static with a bard for a long time and the effect of Threnody is very noticeable.

All in all, it's an interesting idea (I'm quite surprised that the duration of the resist-lowering effect is invariant over resists - almost all other enfeebles can be partially resisted to reduce their duration) and I certainly intend to keep it in mind if I level something with a NIN sub in the future - as I mentioned above, WAR/NIN and RNG/NIN can do this too.

[Armando]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

3-4 sec is more than 1 swing.

3 seconds is 180 Delay. Dual-Weilded Hornetneedle + Sirocco Kukri and Suppanomimi with Suppanomimi is still 240 Delay (4 seconds.) It may be slightly more than one swing for a THF/NIN but it'll almost always be less than two. And if you're high enough to wear a Suppanomimi then your skillchains should be doing a lot of damage, and a resist can easily cost you hundreds of damage, which you definetely can't do in 1 or 2 swings.

In my merit static I see half resists on Fusion and Light all the time (Uleguerand Kindred, Smolenkos, occasionally Molechs, all weak to light). Sometimes 3/4. And not all of those are even IT to a 75. If you think high level SCs aren't resisted, you're just not paying attention (or maybe you're fighting Toughs).

Thank you. I haven't EXP'd at all since I started this thread (personal problems, as well as school keeping me busy) and I didn't really know how much skillchains should do exactly, or how resists worked, so I never really took notice of how often resists happened on skillchains...but like I said earlier, a bit of duoing with my girlfriend afterwards showed me that even EP mobs can resist skillchains commonly even if they're neutral to it...we never got any enormous resists but it says a lot about what your odds against an IT. I'm surprised you get resists on mobs that are weak to light, but that just goes to show much potential this has.

All in all, it's an interesting idea (I'm quite surprised that the duration of the resist-lowering effect is invariant over resists - almost all other enfeebles can be partially resisted to reduce their duration) and I certainly intend to keep it in mind if I level something with a NIN sub in the future - as I mentioned above, WAR/NIN and RNG/NIN can do this too.

Just to clarify...I don't think the duration is fixed at 15 seconds. I just think that that's the lowest it can possibly be. 15 seconds is way too low if you ask me. Unfortunately I'm out of Ballista Points so it'll be days before I can reserve a Diorama-Ballista for testing purposes.

[Spider-Dan]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

I would compare Ichi wheel debuffing to BLM elemental debuffs.

I see BLMs casting Burn instead of Frost all the time, yet there are 3-4 melees in the party that will get increased damage output from Frost (via lowered mob evasion and crit resistance), and usually only one that will get increased damage from Burn (via lowered INT). People are concerned with what increases their own damage, not necessarily the entire party's.

The Ichi wheel does virtually no damage, has a long cast time, and a relatively short duration. The "hassle" of trying to start casting it 4 seconds before everyone is ready to SC (for only a potential damage increase that isn't going to be attributed to you) is going to preclude all but the most dedicated players from trying it.

It would be nice if every /NIN cast an Ichi wheel, and every BRD cast Threnody, and every WHM cast Banish before a SC against bones. But that doesn't happen, and probably never will.

[Bahamut Kaiser]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

Im sure this helps MB alot, and it is a great way for a ninja to play a supportive role at the same time as attacking. But a Thief has the highest spike damage, and if a thief is ending a SC he is already ensuring that the MB will get a big boost. This would be great for a supreme player who wants to exploit every capability he can, but Thief arn't hardly so desperate as many other melee jobs, and usually arn't that hard pressed to impress ppl. People are naturally impressed by thier frequent spike damage,

On top of that, alot of people play thief because it makes money. If you realy think about it, if a player wanted to be a damage dealer who spends money to be effective, he would be a ranger. Those tools cost money and space, space that a Thief himself will ensures to be filled quickly.

Now I could see someone like a dragoon trying to pull a fast one with Drg/Nin, for healing breaths, debuff support and the usually mediocre output, but Drg can rarely get away with using anything but a DD sub (Thf or War, maybe Sam), so it is even less likely.

Oh and as a bard, I will always spam threnodies for any Blm who is willing to take cues, the job has no other function than party support, being dedicated to it is a norm.

[Tokitoki]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

And if you're high enough to wear suppano you arent going to be doing a SC with only 1 element, or you might not do a SC at all. So thats a moot point.

[Armando]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

And if you're high enough to wear suppano you arent going to be doing a SC with only 1 element, or you might not do a SC at all. So thats a moot point.

That wasn't my point My point was that you'd need two 150 Delay daggers, Dual Weild II, and Suppanomimi for 4 seconds to equal a 2-swing loss. Even so, Multielemental skillchains are still subject to resistances, so the only instance in which this is useless is when you don't skillchain at all.

Anyways, I just came from a reserved Brenner match with a good friend of mine. We used the same method of testing, and as before, 3 seconds were removed from each time to account for human error and lag. The spell used was Hyoton (Ice-type, reduces resistance to Fire.)

Armando 52PLD/24 NIN -> Ultimage 70RDM/30WHM
Duration: 14, 15, 14, 16
Damage: 0, 0, 0, 0

Armando 52PLD/24 NIN -> Ultimage w/Barblizzard (+83 Ice Resistance):
Duration: 14, 15, 15, 15
Damage: 0, 0, 0, 0

Armando 52PLD/24 NIN -> Ultimage 6DRK/3WAR*
Duration: 16, 16, 14, 15
Damage: 27, 27, 27, 27

Armando 52PLD/24 NIN -> Ultimage 10DRG/5WHM
Duration: 15, 14, 14, 13
Damage: 26, 26, 26, 26

Armando 24NIN/12WAR -> Ultimage 10DRG/5WHM
Duration: 13, 14, 15, 16
Damage: 17, 17, 17, 17

*When Ultimage was 6DRK/3WAR, the effect only gave him -19 resistance. My theory is that he had 19 elemental resistance, and the game wouldn't allow him to have negative. My first guess was that it was the sum of his INT (11) and MND (8) but that didn't seem very logical, as only one or the other will affect a spell's damage/potency. This was later proved wrong on his DRG job (12 INT, 14 MND, he still got -30 resistance.) It just dawned on me, however...The B and C caps for a level 6 character are 19. For a level 10 character, B-ranked skills cap at 31, while C caps at 30. Have I stumbled upon the secret resistance stat? This would make a lot of sense, as most melees have C evasion...it would be logical that S-E would give most, if not all jobs C-ranked Elemental Resistance which is checked against a caster's magical skill. I need to investigate this further, this could be a huge breakthrough. And, if this is true, then -30 resistance is massive.

My conclusions: Much to my surprise, the Ichi debuffs do seem to have a fixed duration of ~15 seconds, regardless of job (I wanted to see if they were more effective on NIN main,) +elemental resistance stat, and resists. That being said, the debuff aspect of them seems to be 100% effective regardless of the circumstances. All the more reason to use them, unless you have the Ni version (note to self: test their duration.) This also means their intended usage clearly is for landing a key spell or taking advantage of skillchains and magic bursts, as their duration and casting time won't allow for much other usage.

Other fun things I found: Subtle Blow affects TP gained when hit by spells! 10 casts without Subtle Blow gave Ultimage 50 TP, while with Subtle Blow he got 47. Also, I confirmed that the TP gained from being hit is 1/3 of what the attacker gains - I hit Ultimage 10 times with a Love Wand (Delay 264, 6.9 TP per hit) and he ended up with 23 TP, while I ended up with 69 (no subtle blow.) A previous experiment with a mob had revealed that they got 6.4 TP per hit (thus, the proof that they attack every 240 Delay, or 4 seconds) while I got 2.1. 6.4/3 = 2.13 = 2.1 TP per received attack (TP only stores one decimal place.) Also, with Subtle Blow, Ultimage got 21 TP instead of 23. It seems Subtle Blow I only reduces TP by 5% against other players. Must test against mobs, as player TP gain is different from theirs.

EDIT: Amazing! I think I really have found the game's hidden resistance stat!

Taggerung 2BLM/1WHM (9 INT, 8 MND)
-7 resistance

Ultimage 6DRK/3WAR (11 INT, 8 MND)
-19 Resistance

Taggerung 8SMN/4WHM (13 INT, 15 MND)
-24 Resistance

Taggerung 9NIN/4WAR (11 INT, 9 MND)
-27 Resistance

The -Resistance matches the cap for C-ranked skills at each and every one of those levels. I assume that this resistance is like "Magic Evasion" - it's compared against your Magic Skill (which, like with weapon skills, one can assume that each point of skill gives +1 Magic Accuracy) to determine the probabilities of a resist. That being said, +5 Resistance is actually very meaningful. It's also interesting that neither INT or MND affect this resistance, so they either affect resists separately, or don't affect resists at all. Any thoughts?

EDIT 2: Just confirmed against mobs, for those that are interested: Subtle Blow I is 5%, not 10%. It affects spells and melee equally. Store TP doesn't affect mob TP gain, either. Also, assuming I'm right about magic resistance, and that mobs also have C-ranked magic resistance, then casting elemental Ninjutsu on them essentially makes their resistance comparable to that of a mob around 9-10 levels lower in the 30-50 range.

Many thanks to Ultimage and Taggerung for taking the time to help me test this ^^

[Tirrock]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

I don't think elemental resist on players is all that important, really. In massive amounts (like in bar-spells) you can see a difference, usually, but in gear you usually have to sacrifice gear needed to do your job to get enough resistance to make a difference. Even then, you resisting the spell seems to be fairly random.

Look down at my signature for an example of randomness... We fought 3 avatars that day, all of us level 75. With the exception of Javi (who was using his RDM barspell), we all had my level 75 + capped enhancing + WHM AF2 legs (+20 resist) for barspells. And all three of those fights, Delirium got oneshotted and the rest of us took little to no damage. I knew a suicidal WHM with a BQ ring that would eat flares from EM-T hectaeyes in den of rancor for amusement, and even with negative resistance to fire, would almost always live.

Still, I don't mean to discourage you. Just giving an opposing view. One thing that might be interesting to test is what effect WHM's (or RDM's) resist magic traits does to the resistances after being hit with ichi elemental debuffs.

On the point of people spending millions to get slight damage increases and not willing to spend a small amount of money for the same amount of a damage increase... I'll agree that if the resistance lowering always lands (as the tests show it does, even on 0 damage), then there only reasons for a THF not to use this is either the inconvienence of trying to time that, or the THF wanting to sub WAR for berserk/double attack instead of NIN.

Every time a MNK spends 8m+ on a scorpion harness for 5 acc more than their AF and they use poor gear (AGI earrings, DEX rings), an angel loses it's wings.

[Armando]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

Look down at my signature for an example of randomness... We fought 3 avatars that day, all of us level 75. With the exception of Javi (who was using his RDM barspell), we all had my level 75 + capped enhancing + WHM AF2 legs (+20 resist) for barspells. And all three of those fights, Delirium got oneshotted and the rest of us took little to no damage. I knew a suicidal WHM with a BQ ring that would eat flares from EM-T hectaeyes in den of rancor for amusement, and even with negative resistance to fire, would almost always live.

I don't know why Delirium bit the dust every time, but everyone else was fine Aside from that, I still feel even smaller ammounts of elemental resistance can be meaningful, like how it's harder to land unresisted spells on ITJ++ mobs compared to VTs. The level gap isn't THAT big, but that 9-12 difference in resistance is certainly affecting the casters. Also, does your WHM friend resist the Flares, or not? Having "negative" resistance won't really increase the damage he/she takes, just lowers the chances he/she'll resist. Magic Defense Bonus and Shell will also cut down on damage by fixed percentages, which can shave off quite a bit. As long as your friend has enough HP, he/she'll always survive the Flares.

Still, I don't mean to discourage you. Just giving an opposing view. One thing that might be interesting to test is what effect WHM's (or RDM's) resist magic traits does to the resistances after being hit with ichi elemental debuffs.

I've been curious as to wether or not Magic Defense Bonus increases resist rates, actually...but I doubt it. +Magic Accuracy doesn't increase the potency of a spell, and +Resistance won't decrease the potency of a spell either (just give you chances to take a fraction of the damage) so I'd assume Magic Defense is kept completely separate from Magic Resistance.

[Tirrock]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

It's been a long time since I've been with the suicidal WHM, and my memory isn't good enough to answer your question about them. I was just tossing it out as something to think about.

I agree that monsters have some sort of magic resistance stat. (ATK vs DEF, ACC vs EVA, Elemental Magic Skill vs [blank]...same concept.) But I'm not convinced that something like -30 ice resistance is the same as fighting a monster who's ice resistance is equivilant to a monster 10 or so levels lower.

Honestly, I haven't even been able to play FFXI in a little over 4 months. So I'm just basing this all off of memories of my BLM, and throwing out what I hope is constructive critisim. I was under the impression that elemental debuffs had to do damage to lower resistance, but you've said otherwise. Learn something new every day, I suppose.

[Khidir]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

If the practice of debuffing as a thf/nin was effective would the durations be reliable to do it in the first place as mentioned above having as much tp as a thf seems to be primary before the SC. Assuming that there isn't a job with nin/ or /nin which is rare since you can get a nin/war or war/nin to tank easy for pt.

I think some jobs do it better if you have them, it's considerate to dabble in other areas to help others in their fields like mage jobs main healing, but don't let it stray from the main objective if at all possible.

[Armando]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

Ok, I did more testing. I'm convinced that players have a C-ranked elemental resistance (what I like to call "Magic Evasion".) Also, Threnodies give -50 resistance, -55 with a Threnody +1 instrument; Ancient Magic has the exact same effect as Ninjutsu. -30 is definetely nothing to scoff at. Threnody + Ninjutsu = at least -80 resistance. Also, Threnodies are prone to being resisted, while Ninjutsu isn't. In fact, Ninjutsu could be used to help guarantee Threnodies on really troublesome mobs.

[Spider-Dan]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

Also, Threnodies are prone to being resisted, while Ninjutsu isn't. In fact, Ninjutsu could be used to help guarantee Threnodies on really troublesome mobs.

This would be somewhat excessive, since Threnodies are based on the element that the desired -element is weak to; e.g. Ice Threnody (-ice resistance) is fire-based. Ninjutsu, however, has the opposite relation; Hyoton (-fire resistance) is ice-based. In other words, if you were to "spin the wheel" on Threnody, it would go the opposite direction of the Ninjutsu wheel.

So, for example, in order to debuff the mob to ice for a Blizzard burst:

Hyoton to reduce fire resistance for Ice Threnody
Ice Threnody to reduce ice resistance for Blizzard
Huton to reduce ice resistance for blizzard

That's totally unreasonable to ask from a /NIN, and I'd think it'd be somewhat weird for a NIN main, too (they'd have to run the wheel backwards one step, and muscle memory is a not-insignificant thing).

[Armando]

Re: A new trick for THF/NINs?

Good point, Spider-Dan. Didn't think of that.