Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

[TBoTB]

I making this topic in response to the many arguments of Party correct vs "Gimped" subs. Accordingly im asking those who would like to perticapate in making suitable guide This fourms Job to post the PROS and CONS of EACH sub weither it be an appropiate sub or a non appropiate sub. Also please indcate which subs you would recommend for pting, perhaps in its own section in your post. If you would like to contribute more besides the job of this fourm please visit the other job fourms. after considerable information is recorded i will begin to make a guide for the site. Credit will go to the Users of FFXIO * taking down each name of a contributer would be tedius and in-effecient but i will work out an appropiate credting title*

The job guide would be added to ffxio database and added to the main page.

[TriBaL1337]

orz

i will try and give me opinion of the WHM sub when put with summoner main. Before i begin lets all try to remember what a summoner is meant to do - Use its summons to deal the most damage possible -

Now we all know that summoners do not get effectively strong until you get to level 70, this is mainly because the abilies below this level are often resisted to the point where the MP cost is no way worth the damage the ability inflicts.

Remebering this point. A lof of the role of a summoner under level 70 will depend on his/her sub job. Your MP boost will give you a suitable mp pool to be able to use your summons to do their Buff, then to release. From then on your sub job will be considered your main job, until your blood pact coolsdown.

Having played my summoner with both the black mage and Whitemage subbed, i can't stress enough why WHM is the only real viable sub for this class. -
Advantages of Blackmages is of course the burst; as most of your standalone spells will do very little damage (remember the spells you will be using will be subsequently a lot lower level than the mob you are fighting). Therefore the only real opportunity you get to do real damage is with the magic burst, even so you will need to use elemental seal to see any REAL damage.
The enfeebling spells of a blackmage at subd level are really nothing to be desired as a very high percentage of your spells will be resisted.

The whitemage however is different, besides having the same problems with try to use enfeebling spells on the mob, the whitemages Cure Spells can quite easily be the difference between a EXP# Chain 5 and a EXP# Chain 2. Where a CureIII will make a noticeable dent in the main Healers MP, your MP bar will hardly move. This is great as it means the whm can use spells like RegenII DiaII Slow etc.. while you make sure the party stays in tact.

In short, the only reason to sub a blackmage is for the magic bursts + warp. nothing more, nothing less.
A sub whm has all the curing spells which ensure the party is kept alive which is always a good thing. REMEMBER, with your garuda Blink and Titan Stoneskin, it is always possible for you to be the main healer in the Party and to replace the Whitemage position with another damage dealer ( especially if you have a good ninja in your party).

Hope this helps. Remember this is just my opinion and i recommend you try different strategies before following the normal route.

[RandomKG3]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

White Mage

- White Mage is generally seen as one of the only acceptable subjobs for Summoner for one simple reason: you can stand-in for a white mage if there aren't any around. Things such as curing and removing statuses can be performed regardless of the fact that your subjob is half level skill and ability and being able to be an "acceptable" substitute for a white mage makes it much easier for a summoner to get a slot in a party.

Beyond that, though, summoners get many party buffs that white mages do not. Stoneskin and Blink are the two most often used ones, but there are situations where you may have need to use the others as well, such as Spring Water (which removes certain status affects as well as heals HP), or hastega (which negates slow). Putting up blink and stoneskin will help balance the fact that you can never use Cure IV or Cure V, and Spring Water (and whispering wind as well) can you obtain a curaga-like affect without the negative side affect of drawing massive amounts of hate onto yourself.

Although I've met a couple people who claim they prefer summoner healers, most would probably rather have a white mage and only take on summoners in the main healing slot on an "as needed" basis. (IE - there are no white mages seeking, what about that summoner?)

Let there be no doubt in your mind that healing is the _only_ thing you can do effectively despite it being half-level relative to the rest of your party. If you take on any other subjob, your abilities and benefits will be noticably diminished and will, in some cases, not make any reasonable dent on mob you're fighting. In other words, you'll just be treading water (not moving anywhere or making any progress).

"Damage Dealer" (/blm /rdm)
The primary problem you'll encounter with being only a DD is your Blood Pact delay timer. Unlike a black mage, that has no real restriction on how often he can cast besides hate related issues, you can only use an ability once every sixty seconds (63 if you're using a himmel stock, and as low as the forties if you have the relic armor). If you pay attention closely, you'll notice that the damage you do does not equal the damage the black mage can do in that same sixty seconds by a long shot. Granted, you can do some pretty hefty damage in certain situations, but not in all situations.

The problem with having a redmage or blackmage subjob is that it has absolutely zero noticable affect on your ability to deal damage, because that's all mostly done by your avatar. You sitting there casting half level nukes does nothing helpful except maybe appease your own need to feel useful during the other 59 seconds you're waiting for the BP timer to reset. Remember, you're a _summoner_. Your avatar does the damage dealing, not you. Having half level nukes at your disposal is not tremendously useful or helpful (unless you're farming really low level mobs).

So we come back to healing. During the other 59 or so seconds you're just standing around waiting for your BP timer to reset, why not remove the tank's poison or heal a few people? As a summoner you should have more than enough MP to be able to throw a few cures and status affect removals. Also, you might note that in most cases, your bar spells will also be more than enough to handle the situation you're in. Some people see healing as an inconvenience, claiming that it's "not our job", but really, everyone with a heal spell available often finds themselves throwing a few cures around, not just summoners. Nothing is stopping you from using your BP's to damage the mob you're fighting if you really want to, but by the same token, is it all that bad to heal the rest of time when you're just waiting for the BP to reset?

[Momojirou]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

thanks for the info. I'm getting ready to do LB2 for my WHM55. ATM i'm using my BLM as a sub job for WHM. The only reason for this is becasue I had lvl'd up my BLM in the beginning and it was easy to use it as sub for WHM. After I started my WHM I liked it so much that I forgot to stop and lvl my SMN. Now that I'm at a stopping point I want to take the time to be the best WHM possible. So here goes lvl 1 SMN/WHM - lvl 30SMN/WHM. Wish me luck.

[Wiseman40]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

Remember this is the Party vs All other sub discussion.

I think we can all agree that whm is the most useful sub for a party. However, there are uses for the other mage jobs and who knows - blue mage may be useful as well.

I'm very far from being an expert on this, and I'm sure someone will come by soon to debunk any ideas I have.

There's a /rdm guide here in the forum. It's not a path I'm personally interested in, and wouldn't use it for a party if I was, but it has its merits.

Many of the merits that can be found in the /rdm guide can be applied to /blm in terms of enfeeblement. +int gear would be a must, and keeping that skill maxed would also be vital, but you CAN stick debuffs with /rdm or /blm. In the ninja forum I believe, there was a post a while ago by someone who discovered that even if something is resisted, the debuff associated with it may not be. As such, a spell that will do DD or DoT and debuff resistances, lower attack power, etc may be resisted in terms of damage, but the debuff may still stick.

Also, (although I obviously havn't tested this yet) the conserve mp ability (40 smn/blm) may be useful when soloing or farming.

I've noticed that /whm does very little or nothing for me in regular soloing or farming situations.

For NM, BCNM etc, however, you will probably want things like reraise and aquaveil, but that doesn't mean the other mage jobs don't have merit.

I'm looking forward to seeing exactly how blue mage will work as a subjob. After all, they could in theory get a refresh ability before 37, making them a real contender. We'll just have to wait and see, so I'm not going to go any further into the 'what if' sort of speculation.