New SCH stratagem idea!

[Luna]

Ok I have noticed that SCH grabs A LOT! of hate, not only b/c of cures but SCH can also nuke during battle which grabs hate itself. I have noticed that without stoneskin and blink it has been hard for me to take the hits especially if everyone is in red hp and I use Accession + Cure III to save our butts but there isnt a nearby zone for me to erase my hate. So here is what I thought of. I would like to see SE give SCH the abilitie to erase one target party member's hate, make it a stratagem so you can only use it every 4 minutes, but if this where possible it sure as heck would save my butt from dying all the time due to no protect spells T-T

[Balfree]

Re: New SCH stratagem idea!

SCH can't possibly grab more hate than a WHM or a BLM.

Just go easy on those big spells...

[Tsrwedge]

Re: New SCH stratagem idea!

I didn't have a single problem with grabbing too much enmity on a consistent basis in any party I've been in with SCH. Usually one or two "whoa, that's too much!" moments to establish where the line was with a particular tank was all. If you're having trouble with grabbing too much hate, nuke a little less and remember to keep Regens up, especially on the tank. I also like to avoid Cure 4 if at all possible because of the large amount of enmity it generates.

[Saren]

Re: New SCH stratagem idea!

Also didn't have problems grabbing hate on sch, even though I was nuking comparably with blms of the same level and doing more of the healing duties.

No offense in tended but the idea seems a bit random and not really inkeeping with the job. All the Strategms the job has so far are self targeted modifiers on spells so an enmity erasing ability doesn't really fit in with that.

Also what you are suggesting might be on a longer timer than TA but it's more powerful and over a short term much more flexible than the hate management abilities thf gets which wouldn't be right.

[Ziero]

Re: New SCH stratagem idea!

Maybe instead make it so the next spell cast has lower enimity?

That seems to fit more with how Sch does things, as in their abilities boost spell casting rather then have direct effects of their own.

And seriously though, Whm and Blms would be able to pull more hate normally. If you had to rely on Blink+SS (which Blm doesn't get either) while you lvled then either your doing something wrong or all your tanks sucked.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: New SCH stratagem idea!

So here is what I thought of. I would like to see SE give SCH the abilitie to erase one target party member's hate, make it a stratagem so you can only use it every 4 minutes, but if this where possible it sure as heck would save my butt from dying all the time due to no protect spells T-T

The ability to change other people's enmity is mostly THF's territory. They have so little place in the community now, so please have pity on them and don't further encroach on their turf.

Besides, the idea of a Stratagem is to alter a spell's behavior, not create an entirely new effect out of the blue. Would be nice to stick with the theme instead of a non sequitur like enmity modification on party members. (What you're asking for is more like a new spell or an unrelated JA than a new Stratagem.)

Ok I have noticed that SCH grabs A LOT! of hate, not only b/c of cures but SCH can also nuke during battle which grabs hate itself. I have noticed that without stoneskin and blink it has been hard for me to take the hits especially if everyone is in red hp and I use + Cure III to save our butts but there isnt a nearby zone for me to erase my hate.

Oh, I don't know. I've been beaten up badly on SCH before, but that's mostly due to bad tanks. There are tank players so bad, that a Dia could get your face eaten for your trouble.

If some BLMs have survived those mythic Skillcahin + Magic Burst parties where their first spell of the fight is an MB'ed ancient magic for 1000+ damage, I think most SCH will be alright.

You can always attempt an Accession + Regen II before things get too horrible.

* * *

There is a slight possibility that I sometimes over-nuked a tad on SCH intentionally, to make use of the spell Drain (which is more MP efficient than nukes or cures, IMO). Not that I'd ever admit to it, but the possibility is there. >_>

[Tsrwedge]

Re: New SCH stratagem idea!

There is a slight possibility that I sometimes over-nuked a tad on SCH intentionally, to make use of the spell Drain (which is more MP efficient than nukes or cures, IMO). Not that I'd ever admit to it, but the possibility is there. >_>

Drain does have a strange way of putting a grin on one's face, doesn't it?

[Pteryx]

Re: New SCH stratagem idea!

I have to agree with others here that a hate reset ability would be too powerful and un-Strategem-like. Strategems are basically metamagic abilities, so a Strategem pair that halves the Enmity generated by the next white/black spell you cast (which I've thought of before) would be more appropriate -- and for that matter, would help solve your problem if intelligently applied. I'd also want it to be subbable; it'd certainly put a dent in BLM/SCH's vulnerability problem... -- Pteryx

[Armando]

Re: New SCH stratagem idea!

There is a slight possibility that I sometimes over-nuked a tad on SCH intentionally, to make use of the spell Drain (which is more MP efficient than nukes or cures, IMO). Not that I'd ever admit to it, but the possibility is there. >_>

Not to be rude, but it's pointless to damage yourself just to use Drain since Drain will damage the mob indepedently from the amount of HP you recover. As a matter of fact, you'll barely generate any hate at all if you have full HP regardless of how much damage the Drain did, so it's actually advantageous to have full HP in some situations. Makes for a fun Chainspell trick.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: New SCH stratagem idea!

So far, I've only noticed huge hate spikes for SCH when a fight starts and you use something like Accession to drop a Regen II, Blink or Stoneskin. I usually wait mid-fight to pull the AoE Regen IIs out now or AoE -na spells. I save Accession AoE Cures and support spells for after fights, provided I'm using /WHM for Curagas at all.

[Lmnop]

Re: New SCH stratagem idea!

Not to be rude, but it's pointless to damage yourself just to use Drain since Drain will damage the mob indepedently from the amount of HP you recover. As a matter of fact, you'll barely generate any hate at all if you have full HP regardless of how much damage the Drain did, so it's actually advantageous to have full HP in some situations. Makes for a fun Chainspell trick.

But you're only getting the effect of half the spell. Plus, there's no denying that we'd all like to know just how much good we're doing. I know what you're saying, though. What's the point in getting healed if you could avoid getting hit in the 1st place? But the action of overstepping the line means you're probably upping your damage done, anyway. However, it'd be awesome if BLMs who knew they were crossing the hate threshold would work their way up to the melee (barring awful AoE mobs like mandies/ ants who you shouldn't be trying this on, anyway) so when it turns and smacks 'em, it doesn't interfere with the works of the front line.

As for the stratagem -- what others have said. A spell that modifies the enmity of next spell cast is much more viable (maybe have the White version lower the enmity of next person cured or buffed? Too THF, still). Also fits very well into the flavor of the job when you consider Their aptitude towards Regens and DoTs.

[Luna]

Re: New SCH stratagem idea!

Maybe instead make it so the next spell cast has lower enimity?

That seems to fit more with how Sch does things, as in their abilities boost spell casting rather then have direct effects of their own.

And seriously though, Whm and Blms would be able to pull more hate normally. If you had to rely on Blink+SS (which Blm doesn't get either) while you lvled then either your doing something wrong or all your tanks sucked.

Yeah I agree that seems like a better idea, well chances are the reason I was grabbing so much hate was b/c I havent had a tank in my last few pt's so it could have been that. But yeah I like that idea, I think a stratagem that lowers enmity for self target would be very nice! Just think when SCH is able to AoE Cure IV that would be really nice to lower the enmity generated from that especially when curing an entire alliance that way.

[Saren]

Re: New SCH stratagem idea!

especially when curing an entire alliance that way.

....curing an entire alliance? I haven't levelled sch high enough to test this but I assumed party members only which the in game description supports.

I like the enmity down strategm idea but I think it would fit in better with the current stratagems as a simple 'half/reduced enmity gained from the next spell' effect rather than being able to target other party members.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: New SCH stratagem idea!

the action of overstepping the line means you're probably upping your damage done

Correct. This is the along the same line as the idea as melees using /NIN must cross the threshold set by tanks to justify Utusemi.

Mages get better use out of Clear Mind when they can cast spells for short time (e.g. chain nuke), then rest for long time. The concept here is do just the right amount of damage in the "up on feet" time, which is slightly over the limit. Then, use the Drain to regain some of the HP back efficiently (plus a little more damage), just before going back to /heal on.

Of course, should cast Drain anyway, even if one didn't manage to get to the threshold, since it's still efficient. And yes, go stand near tank when trying this.

As for the stratagem -- what others have said. A spell that modifies the enmity of next spell cast is much more viable (maybe have the White version lower the enmity of next person cured or buffed? Too THF, still). Also fits very well into the flavor of the job when you consider Their aptitude towards Regens and DoTs.

SCH probably has enough enmity- gear to make lowering enmity for next spell to be less than useful. Lowering the target's enmity still sounds like a bad fit. I'd much rather have "double the duration of next" enhancing or enfeebling spell or something like that, if SCH gets a new Stratagem.

[Tomato_Kai]

Re: New SCH stratagem idea!

Oddly enough Saph, you aren't alone in noticing this. I'm still in the exp-party levels, and was leveling with a few friends in Yhoater on my mnk. The party setup ran something like this: 30 MNK/WAR, 29 WHM/BLM, 30 NIN/WAR, 30 PLD/WAR, 29 SCH/BLM, 28 THF/WAR.

The party itself wasn't bad. Bouncing around hate between the pld and nin was rather fun, though they weren't quite good enough to let me go full-out with Berserk or Focus yet. That's irrelevant though. What would suck, was when the SCH/BLM would nuke. Even just using Thunder and Blizzard, he would pull hate on nearly *every* cast. And it's not like he was spamming either, or that we were using a WAR/THF, or that the levels were bad.... or even that his damage output was significant. Honestly, I was doing significantly more damage than He. Thunder would hit for 45ish and burst for 85ish, wheras I was hitting for 20-30 per fist, and WSing for 150 and barely getting a lick. The math just doesn't add up.

While I'm not entirely in agreement that SCH's need a hate adjustment of any particular sort, I will agree that this is definitely something I've noticed.