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  • BurningPanther
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    I'd like to add that life without the staves further becomes bearable after merits.

    With full Enfeebling merits(and full Ice MAcc), I need the staves for only the most resistant mobs and NMs.

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  • arkaine23
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    /DRK is not a great choice. RDMs should hit 10-15% of party damage easily at level 75 if prepared for meleeing. /WAR and /NIN will give the best damage period. Just put down your staves, seriously. A level 75 melee RDM is going to do fine at what is most needed from his mp without them:

    Haste (no boost from staff)
    Refresh (no boost from staff)
    Dispel (doesn't need staff)
    Dia (doesn't need staff)
    Cures (loss of 10% curing potency is acceptable if you are a backup healer)
    Self buffs (don't need staves)


    Guess what? You have a whole lot more room for melee gear when you leave some of those staves in your MH.


    Secondly...

    /NIN for Colibri or other piericing weak targets. Evisceration is great damage. Mainhand a dagger and offhand Joyeuse. Wear haste and accuracy gear. Dual Weild bonus is awesome, moreso with haste gear and Suppanomimi. Even with sushi, you'll probably be pushing it to get 85% accuracy, but you should also be able to squeeze out 8-12% haste gear. The previous poster's mention of STR is quite valid. Low base damage weapons like daggers and joyeuse get a nice kick from chunks of STR. Hopefully you've got a BRD for Minuets, but even if there isn't one, speed, enspell, and piercing weakness go a long way to push mediocre damage into acceptable damage.

    If you have to maintain haste/refreshes try to keep them at a minimum. Work it out with your WHM or whoever is backline healer. Find the right balance for their mp expenditure as far as how much hasting they can do for you. Don't drop Dia duty if your backline healer isn't doing it. Dia's very important for the party. Dispel also, if applicable.


    Now 51-74 levels can be quite different. /BLU and /WAR offer some nice utility or damage abilities. Weapon selection has different considerations different pre-joyeuse and pre-evisceration.



    A counter to general don't melee arguements.

    Feed TP: This is pretty weak. Mobs use TP when they want (not often) for 75% of their health. The last 25% is where they spam. Plenty of other jobs hit weakly but are necessary on the fronline for other abilities such as THFs, DNCs, and PLDs. A party doesn't get pwned becasue these jobs are feeding the mob TP for low damage. It won't get pwned by TP moves just because of a RDM meleeing either. TP given matters vs HNM that can kill people with their TP. Generally we pick standard mobs for xp that do crap TP moves like steal food, buff themselves, single hit attack that can be blinked, etc. We avoid stuff that AOE dispels or paralyzes, or does tremedous damage.

    AOE: Status AOE, ok you don't wanna eat those. If there are two backline mages that can status fix though, it really doesn't matter. Damage AOE? RDM has better defenses than the rest of the frontline and can heal themselves. The backline healer(s) should be using efficient curagas when the frontline eats AOE adamage anyway. Curaga doesn't cost more mp just becasue there's an extra person getting it. Single target cures should not ever be needed for a frontline RDM. Also, a RDM might want to eat some damage and use Fencer's Ring for short periods when his hp are down a little.

    Dropping normal duties: I have to agree with this one. If you can't dispel, dia, and maintain haste/refresh and keep your mp pool going until convert, then don't melee. Or at least know when its time to pull back and do the usual casting/resting thing.


    Staff swapping necessary: Sometimes yes. And in lower level ranges that doesn't matter so much because RDM weaponskills are pretty weak, so TP losss is not a big deal. Their main benefit prior to Vorpal Blade/Evisceration are for skillchaining, not so much for damage in and of themselves. However how often do NIN tanks cast their own Slow and Blind? Slow and Paralyze Gravity, Silence, Sleep, and Poison are the only enfeebles we'd commonly cast where staves are really critical. Slow actually sticks pretty well even without a staff. I used a wand for Slow all the way up to 72ish. That leaves Paralyze which has a short recast and costs only 6mp. Many RDMs skip Poison II entirely. Gravity gets skipped if mp or kill speed don't justify its expense. Sleep and Silence are special cases, not needeed too often. Also, nowadays even in the 50's and 60's Colibri are targets. So there are opportunities for meleeing even in the 55-74 range. Its usually with PLD tanks and vs IT++ or very high defense mobs where meleeing is tougher to justify and enfeebling gets better mileage.

    As with anything, its situational. The situations are rare, but not non-existant. I don't turn down parties where the build isn't optimal. I figure everyone needs xp and I shouldn't be picky about it. Often the non-ideal parties can get a little boost from a melee RDM if the backline can support it and if the RDM knows what he's doing. Having 8+ subjobs doesn't mean I'm always going to suggest I can /NIN and DD. It means I'll size things up and suggest what I think may be the most beneficial option.

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
    And my point was it was an extreme "if" and "maybe" considering what BRD and RDM end up doing when they're invited together. I thought that was pretty obvious.

    Again, the only way it becomes common is if you build the PT to have that possibility. Seek and it will never happen.
    I guess you skipped over my overly long post about how I was invited by a WHM leader already at the Greater Colibri camp?

    Not that I was looking to do any amount DD work, but it so happened that adding a little more damage was more useful than sitting in the back in that party.

    It can happen. Sometimes, even to people who are (semi) prepared for it. (Thanks to Campaign Battles, I keep melee gears in the Mog House these days.)
    Last edited by ItazuraNhomango; 01-30-2008, 12:27 AM.

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  • Omgwtfbbqkitten
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    And my point was it was an extreme "if" and "maybe" considering what BRD and RDM end up doing when they're invited together. I thought that was pretty obvious.

    Again, the only way it becomes common is if you build the PT to have that possibility. Seek and it will never happen.

    Leave a comment:


  • Celeal
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
    Originally posted by Celeal
    If there is a BRD in the Colbri party and the RDM is taking the Melee Songs... maybe the damage output from the RDM is decent.

    Seriously, if MP is not a concern in the Colbri burn party, I would ask the RDM to melee.
    Often, though, RDM is called upon to be the sole healer of the PT in a colibri PT and as a BRD or COR, ....
    Not every Colibri party with RDM necessary be identical.


    What I stated was:

    If there is a BRD in the Colbri party and the RDM is taking the Melee Songs... maybe the damage output from the RDM is decent.

    Seriously, if MP is not a concern in the Colbri burn party, I would ask the RDM to melee.


    That does NOT mean that I would ask RDM to melee in every single Colibri party, for every single Colibri, all the time.

    If the melee-RDM has issue with MP, fall back to the backline. *Be flexible* ... that is all I am asking.

    I thought the statement was clear.....
    Last edited by Celeal; 01-29-2008, 06:07 PM.

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  • Omgwtfbbqkitten
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Callisto View Post
    (those actually seriously discussing it, with the gear, experience, and skills to pull it off)
    Successfully eliminating 100% of the posts from certain RDMs entering this discussion, who shall remain nameless.

    This is for the most part assuming that there's a WHM in the party, and that the RDM is either pulling or would have nothing to do outside of Refreshing/Hasting otherwise, which is not entirely uncommon, to see a setup along the lines of WHM RDM BRD/COR DDx3 on Colibri(if you think this would be a bad setup you haven't had much merit experience).
    Its assuming a lot. When you seek as RDM, BRD or COR and merit level, you're more than likely going to be paired with the others. If there isn't a RDM, BRD and COR will be invited to support WHM, or BRDx2. Basically, you're still assuming a scenario that happens in the rarest of circumstances unless you formed the PT yourself with that intention in mind.

    Originally posted by Yellow Mage View Post
    When I saw the username Omgwtfbbqkitten, my skin crawled with the kind of the angry anti-frontline-RDM ranting I thought I'd be seeing. Much to my chagrin, it turned out to be a very logical, calm, collected, reasonable post.

    Made a fool of me.

    (Side note: you also just got my 1,000th Thanks!)
    This has often been my stance on RDM melee, coming from the perspective other major PT supporters. Most RDMs have just stopped at "X Reason I don't want you to melee" and go off about how SE "intended" RDM to be such-and-such and sassafrass and how I'm a mean bastard for not wanting them to melee. Intention and execution are two different things and we've seen the intentions falter in favor of other potentials many times.

    Ninja was intended to be a light DD/enfeebler and we made it a tank.
    Blue Mage was intended to play DD/Support and most people just refuse to support.
    Warrior was intended to DD and tank - most Warriors don't know what Provoke is.

    Then you have the people who think Dancer was meant to tank since it got Animated Flourish and can tank in small PTs. They get torn to shreds on IT++, Paladins and Ninjas they are not. This is one of those situations where SE's intentions win out.

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Akashimo View Post
    Some of you're gear, I'd think would improve if you change to the following for when DDing;
    AF hands(+3dex, parrying when you get hate)
    AF Feet(good for taking unexpected hits)
    Sorry, but those aren't that useful at Greater Colibri camp. Critters just don't face me often enough to make defensive gear worthwhile--it's pretty much only when Souleater is up and I have the TP. Even then, I could just wait a bit for someone else to WS first or wait for tank to establish himself.

    Heck, Battle Gloves would be better than AF hands. XD

    (Caveat: That's on Joyeuse, which has low damage rating; higher rating swords' WS may do more.)

    If you're soloing, that's an entirely different matter.

    Originally posted by Akashimo View Post
    Warwolf Belt(Str + dex + vit > acc alone)
    Snipers/Jeager's + Raja's or dex/str(Personally I'd take one acc and one stat ring to up the curve evenly)
    ...
    AF hat(I find it more worth while meleeing with it to cast when needed than macroing it in/out)
    ...
    Genbu's Shield(4acc of that tarque isn't that big of a deal imho and with /drk, -10% phys dmg taken is godly when you get hate @_@; )
    I disagree; 72% accuracy was low. That's capped sword with 4 merits, Accurac+34 in gears, and sushi. There's no reason to remove accuracy gear at all until one start parsing near accuracy cap.

    Originally posted by Akashimo View Post
    Amement Mantle+1 (No excuses, +1 or no DDing rdm)
    It's a good item, but even with better gears than the ones you've listed, RDM won't be a real DD. =/

    Originally posted by Akashimo View Post
    Sword Choices:
    I haven't gotten a joytoy yet so no comment on how that works yet. So going with what I've toyed around with;
    Martial Anelace(TP bonus, yummy, helps make up for lack of dmg/acc)
    Royal Guards Flueret(+6acc, low delay, acceptable dmg)
    Dissector(+6% crit rate, awesome sauce)
    I don't see those as alternatives to Joyeuse or Justice Sword. On Colibri (my topic), Joyeuse is pretty much the only way to go.

    Given that we sometimes have to switch to staves, and that we don't really want monsters to face us, it's counterproductive to worry too much about boosting weapon skills' damage. This is why high proc rate multi-hit weapons--Joyeuse and Justice Sword--fit front line RDM's purpose so well, IMO. They let us contribute to DoT significantly, with en-spell adding an additional small boost.

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  • Yellow Mage
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    When I saw the username Omgwtfbbqkitten, my skin crawled with the kind of the angry anti-frontline-RDM ranting I thought I'd be seeing. Much to my chagrin, it turned out to be a very logical, calm, collected, reasonable post.

    Made a fool of me.

    (Side note: you also just got my 1,000th Thanks!)

    Leave a comment:


  • Callisto
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    It's pretty much assumed for those of us discussing this(those actually seriously discussing it, with the gear, experience, and skills to pull it off) that the RDM is not main healing. This is for the most part assuming that there's a WHM in the party, and that the RDM is either pulling or would have nothing to do outside of Refreshing/Hasting otherwise, which is not entirely uncommon, to see a setup along the lines of WHM RDM BRD/COR DDx3 on Colibri(if you think this would be a bad setup you haven't had much merit experience).

    In this kind of setup, really the RDM is dead weight if they don't melee, seeing as how there is little else they can do to contribute. They would have 3-4/tick Refresh without the BRD/COR, while the WHM would easily have 6-8, so there'd be no reason to not be up front and getting Minuet instead of Ballad, because they really have more than enough MP to do what their current role in the party is almost indefinitely, barring some fights that for whatever reason get a little out of hand.

    And yes, I can be a bit of a diva in regards to XP, but that's the price for having a good support role player in your party, the same reason I would give a bit of extra leeway to an Adaberk/Ridill WAR, you put up with certain things if you want to crank out the merits quickly.

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  • Omgwtfbbqkitten
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Celeal View Post
    If there is a BRD in the Colbri party and the RDM is taking the Melee Songs... maybe the damage output from the RDM is decent.

    Seriously, if MP is not a concern in the Colbri burn party, I would ask the RDM to melee.
    Often, though, RDM is called upon to be the sole healer of the PT in a colibri PT and as a BRD or COR, I can't tell you how irritating it is to watch someone get a buff I didn't intend for them. Both of those jobs are reliant on the cooperation of the party to stay divided in two parts unless there's a need on the frontline for what the backline gets (meaning PLD, BLU, DRK). And when that happens, even then I die a little on the inside because it also usually means lower EXP per hour.

    But then, those are the players a COR and BRD look to a RDM to cover, I'd only consider MP buffing PLD, BLU and DRK if we didn't have a RDM. We're not passing the buck, its not that we don't want to refresh PLD, DRK and BLU, but that they can gain even greater benefit from melee buffs, which can also be buffs that support tanking and reduce damage taken.

    Its not about RDM going "Oh, I'm fine, I can Refresh myself," its that you're slighting our role for your desires and diminishing the buff cycle, lowering party performance as a direct result. You might think its going fine, but I can very much feel the difference.

    RDMs are expected to maintain thier refresh and haste cycles, CORs and BRDs prefer to maintain a four-buff cycle, generally a cycle that benefits both ends of the party directly.

    But its the diva mentality that RDMs get (and to a even extent, BRDs) that makes them forget they're not the only ones that keep the party moving. Trust me, I've had high-chain PTs that get along just fine without a RDM, just like I've had them without a BRD and most people have them without CORs. Dispite conventional belief, there are plenty of WHMs out there on the top of thier game and can keep up with a fast pace merit PT so long as one of those jobs supports them full-time, I never underestimate that +hMP gear unless its a roaming PT, which are actually very rare PTs.

    Everyone gives up a little something to be in a merit PT, too. Trust me, I hate subbing /NIN and I can feel the loss of performance for the sake of just not getting hit. I can't begin to count the MNKs and DRGs whose skin crawls the second they put on the NIN sub. Its supposed to be the bread and butter sub or RNG, but I've honestly come to like /SAM and /WAR a lot better.

    RDM has a lot of opportunities to melee, its more to the end that mainstream EXP PTs just aren't that place and that's also the fastest place to get the EXP, particularly in ToA camps. Worse is that RDMs never consider the changes made to the game that actually have made melee more practical and available in the last year. Trust me, the signet update, the +hHP buff and elimination of TP loss while resting was not a change made for melees, BLUs and BSTs' sake, but RDM's as well. Not to mention the addition of DNC and SCH make smaller PTs more practical, once again opening up the opportunity to melee for RDM.

    Then there's Campaign, depending on if your skills are capped, this could be another option to play it how you want.

    But mainstream EXP PTs have been and always will be about getting EXP as fast as possible, by the most comfortable means possible. Just the way it is and there's nothing you can do to change it, especially when you partake of it regularly. Complain about it all you want, but as long as you conform and want that fast EXP, you're going to have to do things the way you don't like doing them, that or find a PT/static willing to do things your way. Believe me, that's extremely rare.

    So to get what you want, you gotta take that invite flag down, really. That's a hard thing to do for the 41+ RDM, possibly harder than anything else.
    Last edited by Omgwtfbbqkitten; 01-29-2008, 01:48 PM.

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  • Yellow Mage
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Lmnop View Post
    If you could 2 hand that rapier, I'd almost agree. I'd still say go with Lifebelt.
    I still think that the 1 DEX = 1 Accuracy update should have been given to One-Handed weapons from the word go. I mean, that would have helped us a lot, and besides, I miss seeing jokes like "A DRK walks in to a bar . . . and misses."

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  • Callisto
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Lmnop View Post
    Indeed, the worst thing about RDM melee is that, typically, it's a bandaid for sub-optimal conditions. Who plans for and hopes for sub-optimal?
    Hoping for sub-optimal, of course not. Planning for it is entirely different, though, I believe you should always plan for sub-optimal conditions, and overdo it just in case shit comes into contact with a fan. I always plan to need to get a task done with the least amount of resources available, because I'm in a small linkshell with low #'s but talented players. We low-man many things, and many times me being able to put out a reasonable damage output without nuking makes a big difference. Sometimes we try to get things done outside of scheduled times to help the LS, or when less people are availabe to help, i.e. going up to Sky on during free time and duoing Diorites with a DRG/BLU, where me meleeing seriously speeds up the amount we can get through in a given amount of time.

    Even when it comes to merits, 1) there just isn't always a BRD lfg, and 2) I really don't like partying in pickup groups anymore anyways, so we work with who we have online in LS at the time. Sometimes we field BRD WHM COR DDx3 and rape, sometimes we field BLU BLU DNC RDM RDM DRK and work with what we have, lol.

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  • Lmnop
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Akashimo View Post
    Warwolf Belt(Str + dex + vit > acc alone)
    If you could 2 hand that rapier, I'd almost agree. I'd still say go with Lifebelt.

    Amement Mantle+1 (No excuses, +1 or no DDing rdm)
    It would take you hours of parsing to notice a difference between Amemet and it's +1 counterpart. I mean, I understand what you're getting at -- you have more ground to make up, and since you're carrying around so much gear, anyway, the more you can cram into a single slot, the better (wtg super-comma usage). However, to say "no excuse" is to go a bit far... Honestly, an akinji peti, lifebelt, etc... would do the trick. The only really costly investment should be acc rings (and for RDM meleeing, I think I'd take 'em over a Rajas, even).

    Dedicating yourself to the pursuit of good RDM melee calls for lots of obscene things, but making an effective build to help contribute to kill speed (like Itazura's story) requires nothing of the sort. You're still helping out in such a situation...

    Indeed, the worst thing about RDM melee is that, typically, it's a bandaid for sub-optimal conditions. Who plans for and hopes for sub-optimal?

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  • Callisto
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    I have that. I also have Light Staff macro'ed for cures. The problem was, I didn't want to put Light Staff away, in case I need to switch to heavy curing mode.
    That's another thing I forgot to mention actually, I have an individual swap for each of my staves, to make sure I don't lose TP when casting spells, and I change staves as needed.

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    My trouble with crowd control was due to the lack of attention and anticipation. As I've written, melee'ing was a distraction. Needed to keep track of where the puller (WHM) was, and face camera to where he'll be, and don't have a lot of extra critters I have to switch through when I hit the sleep macro.
    I can see that being an issue, I generally am the puller myself when I choose to melee. I usually use the menu to cast Slow on surrounding birds, adds a slight debuff and it won't do anything to me when cast back at me, I follow that up with Sleep. I tend to leave Stoneskin off and only use Blink, this way if they cast Sleep back after waking either it eats a shadow, or if it hits me they usually get 1 hit in on me before someone gets hate, waking me up, and a single Regen will fill me up again. Not to mention that Stoneskin is a long cast when you do cast it, and cuts out a fair # of possible swings if you keep it up constantly.

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    And, don't let your ego get in the way--an average BRD or COR will do more for the party's damage output than a very well geared RDM's sword. Without another mage to watch of the party's HP bars, it's much better not to melee, unless you're really, really good at switching between tasks fast.
    Yeah, if I actually was intending to be a 'DD' I'd just go as COR where I can post 1k+ weaponskills without breaking a sweat. Then again I have a nice luxury of choosing between 3 jobs that can at times fill the same spot.

    As far as gear, the most important pieces I can recommend in order of importance are: Paluwhan Body, Optical Hat, Amemet+1, and Potent Belt. For the neck it depends what you have to choose from really, I have a PCC but I tend to go with Chiv Chain still for the extra STR. Ogre Ledlesens are also a huge pickup for the price, a fat chunk of attack for like 5k gil in a slot where you really can't get anything useful. I currently use Tarasque Mitts, I personally feel that's the best buyable piece you can use in the hands slot, although I'll be using Goliard Cuffs as soon as I can get them.

    The really tough choice slot is the earring, mainly due to choices in DM and AN. Suppa and Hollow both are fantastic melee earrings, however you can't neglect your actual magic, and Abysal, Magnetic, and Static Earrings are all great choices as well. I went with Abyssal and Hollow, as I frequently use Dark Magic, like the equivalent of a free Phantom+1 for debuffs, and nothing really compares to the Hollow earring for COR, not to mention my Enspells currently do 22 base damage without an Enhancing Sword or Fencer's Ring, 27 with ESword.

    Weapons, I really have a tough time picking. I have some nice ones to choose from, lately I've been using Joy more, but deep down I love my ESword, it puts up nice #'s, it looks cool, and no matter what happens I know that I own something that was at one time worth 25m(14m when I got mine). As /WAR or /DRK I'd honestly use Justice Sword above anything else though(should be getting one soon pending on my lot luck) the ability for DA to proc during Vorpal Blade, while still keeping up with Joy TP-wise, and how easy it is to farm for stones as RDM makes it extremely appealing.

    Edit: I suppose I should've included a sword option that wasn't hard to obtain, if I didn't have Joy/ESword I personally would go with a Company Fleuret, Verdun, or Guspiere for parties, Mensur Epee for solo. Aside from something with outstanding stats such as the ESword I'd stay away from swords w/ higher delay than the 224~ ones, the extra enspell hits will generally make up for the slight differences in base damage.
    Last edited by Callisto; 01-29-2008, 08:08 AM.

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  • Akashimo
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Some of you're gear, I'd think would improve if you change to the following for when DDing;
    AF hands(+3dex, parrying when you get hate)
    AF Feet(good for taking unexpected hits)
    Warwolf Belt(Str + dex + vit > acc alone)
    Snipers/Jeager's + Raja's or dex/str(Personally I'd take one acc and one stat ring to up the curve evenly)
    Relic Legs(relic +4 dex, spikes effect, good ;3 )
    Chiv chain
    Suppa if you have it for sword, otherwise, moldy and atk earring
    AF hat(I find it more worth while meleeing with it to cast when needed than macroing it in/out)
    Amement Mantle+1 (No excuses, +1 or no DDing rdm)
    Genbu's Shield(4acc of that tarque isn't that big of a deal imho and with /drk, -10% phys dmg taken is godly when you get hate @_@; )

    Sword Choices:
    I haven't gotten a joytoy yet so no comment on how that works yet. So going with what I've toyed around with;
    Martial Anelace(TP bonus, yummy, helps make up for lack of dmg/acc)
    Royal Guards Flueret(+6acc, low delay, acceptable dmg)
    Dissector(+6% crit rate, awesome sauce)

    Daggers
    Hornetneedle(best high speed low dmg great to use with en-spelling, espically when single handling it)
    Garuda's Dagger(great for uping dmg, but a little higher delay)
    Martial Knife(see martial sword)

    Enjoy.

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