rdm as DD?

[Akashimo]

Re: rdm as DD?

will simply have to level a second job in this scheme before he's allowed any merit pt>? @_@

And having to do that screws the people over!
<_< Meriting lowest priority. Cap exp/events yes preaze! >_>
Btw, that mind set for people to have a 'merit job' is quite common in hnmls 1337 mind sets on seraph these days >_>;

[Nuriko]

Re: rdm as DD?

My philosphy, take second best cause long run it'll be the best.
Which is why I'd go for rdm(&whm) DDing for 2008!

All right, I'll just go level NIN to 37 and go out there as WHM/NIN! Oh, and maybe I'll get around to killing that WSNM for the club WS too ... and get O-Hat ... and Reverend Mail ... and probably a fair bit of +acc gear...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: rdm as DD?

I rarely see more than one BRD seeking for party, if that many. Haven't seen a COR75 seeking in over a month. You're assuming every party should have 2/6 slots to be filled with BRD and/or COR, that means 1/3 of the merit seeking population should have at least one of those jobs leveled.

That's an incredible assumption.

Not really, since late CoP and early ToA its been rather common for people to level BRD and RDM with ulterior motives that have nothing to do with levelling it as a serious main jobs. People balk at COR because its support class with high expenses. You've denied that a couple times, but again, its the expense that drives people away.

No argument about capability of that set up, but you're basically demanding everyone who don't have one of those jobs to level one--preferably BRD or COR.

Its a quicker trip to 75 than you think, sadly, most BRDs aren't terribly dilligent about thier gear because PTs let them be gimp. I spent 7 months on COR and BRD respectively, took my time on both, didn't level til I felt I had what I needed to continue levelling. Bascially, I treated them just like any melee job I had, if only other people would treat COR and BRD with that level of respect, though granted I'm slow about gilmaking back in my BRD days.

The neophytes who picked the "wrong" job to 75 first, will simply have to level a second job in this scheme before he's allowed into any merit party? @_@

How do you think melees feel, were it not for good LSes and good friends, my RNG wouldn't have but a handful of merits to its name. Thankfully, I have a COR, which is actually my true main on Kitten, so its not an issue.

Let's just say I learned the second time around. Levelling BRD was, in my opinion, a mistake. I did it because my LS didn't have a BRD in thier lineup and I've regretted it ever since, but now at least when my BST and SCH need merits, I have a tool to get them merits with. Its a tool I'll be keen on shoving into a dark corner once I get other merits capped out and go back to endgame. COR gave me everything I ever wanted from a job and the more subs I finish, the more love I have for it.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm as DD?

Not really, since late CoP and early ToA its been rather common for people to level BRD and RDM with ulterior motives that have nothing to do with levelling it as a serious main jobs.

Doesn't mean there are that many of BRDs available, seeking parties. RDM, on the other hand, do seem quite plentiful.

People balk at COR because its support class with high expenses. You've denied that a couple times, but again, its the expense that drives people away.

I don't recall "denying" that... You sure I didn't write something to the effect of "there are other factors as well"?

How do you think melees feel, were it not for good LSes and good friends, my RNG wouldn't have but a handful of merits to its name. Thankfully, I have a COR, which is actually my true main on Kitten, so its not an issue.

Not sure what you mean here; it seemed like you were advocating DD x4 + BRD (or COR) + RDM set up as the right or normal way, while Icemage was DDx3 + BRDx2 (or BRD+COR) + RDM. In both of which, DD's are not shafted.

My view is "Both of those are nice. I also take invites from WHMs, THFs and PUPs, too, even if they are not on those lists." Not picky about party composition, as long as it's functional enough to chain reasonably. Heck, you're the one who really made the point to me and others about being nicer to the other, less than exp optimal jobs.

Are you practicing what you've preached as well?

Do you take invites on COR from those "not so desirable in exp party" jobs?

Let's just say I learned the second time around. Levelling BRD was, in my opinion, a mistake. I did it because my LS didn't have a BRD in thier lineup and I've regretted it ever since, but now at least when my BST and SCH need merits, I have a tool to get them merits with.

It's too bad; I'd gladly take invites from your BST or SCH, knowing how much you would have made to gear them well. *shrug* I'm not the type to demand a BRD or COR or otherwise no-way-no-how. At least, not at the moment--who knows how endgame will corrupt me?!

[Icemage]

Re: rdm as DD?

I rarely see more than one BRD seeking for party, if that many. Haven't seen a COR75 seeking in over a month. You're assuming every party should have 2/6 slots to be filled with BRD and/or COR, that means 1/3 of the merit seeking population should have at least one of those jobs leveled.

That's an incredible assumption.

You would be surprised at how much of the end-game 75 population has one of those three jobs levelled.

I'd say close to 3/4 of my LS has at least one of the three jobs levelled to 75, if not multiple. Whether I can persuade any one of them to actually play them is a separate issue, but the potential is always there.

No argument about capability of that set up, but you're basically demanding everyone who don't have one of those jobs to level one--preferably BRD or COR.

The neophytes who picked the "wrong" job to 75 first, will simply have to level a second job in this scheme before he's allowed into any merit party? @_@

Demand? No. There will always be people willing to settle for second best. But when we are talking about making the most of your limited play time, it's not as hard as you make it out to be.

Just ask your friend the BLM how often he gets invites to merit parties. Or White Mage. Or the Puppetmaster. Or Dragoon. Or Beastmaster. Nothing has changed, really - the balance of power changes between the jobs, but there's always a few left behind.

When I'm out there trying to earn merit points, that's what I focus on - getting as many points in as little time as possible, so that I can spend the rest of my time doing other, more interesting things (Limbus, Dynamis, Assault, sea, sky, Salvage, Einherjar, BCNM, etc.). It is a means to an end; I'm not there to hold someone's hand and try to make them feel better about how S-E screwed their job of choice.

I'll make the occasional exception for an LS member who is trying to push a job to 75, in the interests of improving the efficiency of the LS as a whole by providing more flexibility, but that's about as far as I'm willing to take it. Other than that... never. I can't find enough free time to do all the stuff I want to do as it is, and thus spending twice as much time in merit parties than necessary is a non-starter as far as I'm concerned.


Icemage

[Akashimo]

Re: rdm as DD?

All right, I'll just go level NIN to 37 and go out there as WHM/NIN! Oh, and maybe I'll get around to killing that WSNM for the club WS too ... and get O-Hat ... and Reverend Mail ... and probably a fair bit of +acc gear...

Its quite fun to get the gear and then actually use it ;3

Doesn't mean there are that many of BRDs available, seeking parties. RDM, on the other hand, do seem quite plentiful.

Exactly. If anything, only time you're guarenteed a brd is if they're your friend or ls mate that needs recap/merits. Which is why its pointless to actually expect one. Though there was this one day where 5 75brds were lfp all at once for a few hours......

It's too bad; I'd gladly take invites from your BST or SCH, knowing how much you would have made to gear them well. *shrug* I'm not the type to demand a BRD or COR or otherwise no-way-no-how. At least, not at the moment--who knows how endgame will corrupt me?!

Lawl. Hope you stay that way in the end too. Cause its nausiating to see nothing but talk of wanting a brd or no merits at all in my ls. Hesh if i leveled it, it'll be worse than main healing on rdm on occassion or being on whm in limbus when its not needed, yet the officer for limbus makes me go whm.

Demand? No. There will always be people willing to settle for second best. But when we are talking about making the most of your limited play time, it's not as hard as you make it out to be.

Just ask your friend the BLM how often he gets invites to merit parties. Or White Mage. Or the Puppetmaster. Or Dragoon. Or Beastmaster. Nothing has changed, really - the balance of power changes between the jobs, but there's always a few left behind.

Most of the time, I'd try to make parties for the less invited jobs, problem is, people just be arses before we even get started. Like they go, "blm gimp," or, "wtf, lolpup." Drg and bst are popular amoung to get for dds, yet the main stream meriters will always pick out war over them.

When I'm out there trying to earn merit points, that's what I focus on - getting as many points in as little time as possible, so that I can spend the rest of my time doing other, more interesting things (Limbus, Dynamis, Assault, sea, sky, Salvage, Einherjar, BCNM, etc.). It is a means to an end; I'm not there to hold someone's hand and try to make them feel better about how S-E screwed their job of choice.

That view is what made the game so burn orientated. The end does not justify the means! You spend majority of your game life in exp/meripos, that part should be 1) fun and 2) not soul sucking with endgame elistism on high chaining exp/hr. If anything, this game needs to be rolled back to CoP days before ToAu to really know what is gained and what is lost amoung all players. The difference in support jobs skill and additudes is one of them. Another is willingness to settle for anything outside of the meripo hotspot without it completely destroying the party.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm as DD?

That view is what made the game so burn orientated. The end does not justify the means! You spend majority of your game life in exp/meripos, that part should be 1) fun and 2) not soul sucking with endgame elistism on high chaining exp/hr.

Actually, since he's able to maintain 20k+ exp/hour, Icemage definitely won't be spending the majority of his game time in merit parties.

* * *

Don't see anything inherently wrong with wanting good exp/hour. It's not that easy of a task; takes good players, working smoothly together, correct merits, open camp, and optimal setups. A challenging goal with a clear payout--fighting smartly is not dumbing down the game.

Of course, nothing is terribly wrong with a party that's sub-optimal yet functional, either. Just when the lolPUP trend started (before the first wave of additional attachments), I was in a few lower level party with them on different jobs, and parsed these "non-optimal" parties. Those lolPUPs tend to be the best DDs in party, once the Automaton damage is accounted for.

Something I'd never would have known if I had bolted from party upon seeing lolPUP. Same goes for seeing a very well geared BLM able to keep up damage with decent DDs in Lv.72-75 party that's flowing badly--lot's of odd, short down times due to prey competition, bad pulling, etc. for the BLM to recharge MP. >_>b

I'd like to have more chain#100+ parties, as well as those odd SC+MB Troll parties. Either would be much faster than those Campaign Battles I'm forced to do because I can't get invites when I have time for merit parties. Heck, even as melee'ing RDM in so-so parties with my unimpressive melee gear, I'd do better.

It's getting bad enough that I'm considering picking up BRD again before taking my PLD70 to PLD75. x_x; May be faster to level BRD to 75 than getting enough limit points on RDM to fully merit it. (The trouble with that idea is that I'd feel bad not putting merits on BRD first if I put up invite flag on BRD... )

[Akashimo]

Re: rdm as DD?

Level brd for that and we'll be having char broiled Itazura with a side of ballad potatos.

[Vyuru]

Re: rdm as DD?

It's getting bad enough that I'm considering picking up BRD again before taking my PLD70 to PLD75. x_x; May be faster to level BRD to 75 than getting enough limit points on RDM to fully merit it. (The trouble with that idea is that I'd feel bad not putting merits on BRD first if I put up invite flag on BRD... )

My advice is to not do that if you dislike the job so much. You'll have a high chance of getting burned out quickly on the job, and then dealing with the idiots is always annoying.

In addition to that, it has been my experience that the people who invite you are *not* people you would like to be around. I have been invited to some of the more, I would say elitist parties, both as Drg and Rdm, and while yes, exp/hr tended to be higher, I highly detested my other party members.

I've only been in one non LS party where not only was the exp/hr phenomenal, but I had a decent amount of respect and liked the other party members. However that really was the exception to the rule.

Campaign may be slower than a normal exp party, but I'd rather enjoy myself and get slower exp than be raking in huge amounts of exp and hating every minute of it.

Another thing to add to the Campaign fights is that if you can get a small party going for them, then you can fight the mobs around some of the areas inbetween Campaign fights for pretty decent exp. Lately I've been just sticking in Pashhow Marshlands and I'll solo the Quadav inbetween Campaign fights, they're not THAT bad for a drg/mage to solo, and they con DC or so to me, so it's decent exp while waiting for the next fight to start.

[Icemage]

Re: rdm as DD?

That view is what made the game so burn orientated. The end does not justify the means! You spend majority of your game life in exp/meripos, that part should be 1) fun and 2) not soul sucking with endgame elistism on high chaining exp/hr. If anything, this game needs to be rolled back to CoP days before ToAu to really know what is gained and what is lost amoung all players. The difference in support jobs skill and additudes is one of them. Another is willingness to settle for anything outside of the meripo hotspot without it completely destroying the party.

(1) Merit parties are fun for me. I adore playing RDM in merit parties. I'm never lacking for things to do, there's always a new threat to deal with, and hey, it gives me lots of points - bonus! For me, it's a game within a game. Trying to see just how fast I can make a party kill enemies and keep everyone alive while managing my own HP/MP resources is a serious challenge - that's more than enough to keep my interest.

(2) You want to know what's soul-sucking? Getting into a merit party and not being able to make it to chain #5 because the DRK that invited you was level 71 and can't hit the broad side of a barn.

(3) I've been playing this game since beta. I remember what merit parties were like right after merits were introduced. I remember when KRT Fistburns were all the rage. I remember when Arrowburns were all the rage. I remember when Manaburns were all the range. How are any of those examples any less restrictive than what we see today? At least now, your average DD has a fighting chance to score a place in a merit party.

I don't have a problem with people who want to play the game a different way; I'm simply taking issue with the people who say that melee RDM can perform as well as backline caster RDM in most XP/merit situations. I know from frequent personal experience that this is simply not true. Yes, there are times when Melee RDM is acceptable, or even recommended. No, those situations aren't terribly common. I'm not advocating that anyone shouldn't at least consider the possibility of doing some melee - of course you should. But coming with the freedom to choose should also be the responsibility to choose wisely for the task at hand.


Icemage

[Akashimo]

Re: rdm as DD?

(1) Merit parties are fun for me. I adore playing RDM in merit parties. I'm never lacking for things to do, there's always a new threat to deal with, and hey, it gives me lots of points - bonus! For me, it's a game within a game. Trying to see just how fast I can make a party kill enemies and keep everyone alive while managing my own HP/MP resources is a serious challenge - that's more than enough to keep my interest.

(2) You want to know what's soul-sucking? Getting into a merit party and not being able to make it to chain #5 because the DRK that invited you was level 71 and can't hit the broad side of a barn.

(3) I've been playing this game since beta. I remember what merit parties were like right after merits were introduced. I remember when KRT Fistburns were all the rage. I remember when Arrowburns were all the rage. I remember when Manaburns were all the range. How are any of those examples any less restrictive than what we see today? At least now, your average DD has a fighting chance to score a place in a merit party.

I don't have a problem with people who want to play the game a different way; I'm simply taking issue with the people who say that melee RDM can perform as well as backline caster RDM in most XP/merit situations. I know from frequent personal experience that this is simply not true. Yes, there are times when Melee RDM is acceptable, or even recommended. No, those situations aren't terribly common. I'm not advocating that anyone shouldn't at least consider the possibility of doing some melee - of course you should. But coming with the freedom to choose should also be the responsibility to choose wisely for the task at hand.


Icemage

1)Keeping hp/mp up is fun, I'll give ya that. But its more of a game for me when i can enfeeble/nuke more freely too without the mob dieing to quickly when playing backliner.

2) O_o;;;;;; Wow, just wow, yeah, that takes the cake.

3)Ok, point taken. v.v;

I'd personally wouldn't even try to keep up backline duties completely as a frontliner, its just not worth the effort. At best I can keep up with refresh and haste on the main hate holder between pulls/after WSing. Everything else would be mb/emergancy heals/enspells to at least keep tp gain consistant where it would allow me to more freely stay on front lines. Then again, the thought will never allow me if its the 4/2, maybe 3/3, but never a 4/2. With the other of the 2 is a bard, cor or smn.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm as DD?

My advice is to not do that if you dislike the job so much. You'll have a high chance of getting burned out quickly on the job, and then dealing with the idiots is always annoying.

Actually, I liked playing BRD. It's just that since my PLD is Lv.70, and BLM is Lv.56, I probably should take those to Lv.75 first. >_>;

The current goal, however, is to finish group 1 and 2 merits for my RDM.

I'd personally wouldn't even try to keep up backline duties completely as a frontliner, its just not worth the effort.

Well, given that one Haste on a good DD will probably produce more additional damage output than my RDM's sword, that's why I say front line melee for RDM is not worth the effort if there's enough back line duty for my RDM.

The balance may be different for RDMs with better melee gears and merits, but the truth is that better efficiency is good for everyone in party (when obtainable), and back line is where to find that efficiency.

[arkaine23]

Re: rdm as DD?

True, though you'll gain TP faster with a single-wielded Joyeuse than Blau Dolch/Joyeuse, due to Dual Wield's effect on TP gain.

Dual Wielded Blau/Joy has a base TP gain of 4.8 TP per hit with Suppanomimi.

Single wielded Joyeuse has a base TP gain of 6.0 TP per hit.


Icemage

The TP gain difference is about 5% in favor of single-wielded Joyeuse even for /WAR where DA is helping Joyeuse a little. Its like 1-2 seconds faster at reaching 100 TP. At least when I ran a scenario with my own gear.

Math Warning

I'll grant TP rates of 6.4 and 5.1 (store TP +7, probably same for Store TP +5 but I didn't check). A joyeuse /WAR will get 9.9 TP in an average round (I include DA's watered down effect for attack rate). A BD/Joy /NIN will get 12.7 TP in an average round. Joyeuse will get 100 TP in 11 rounds (10 rounds a lot of the time bc its very close but has to be rounded down), BD/Joy will do it in 8 rounds. That's 2240 or 2464 total delay for Joy (depending on getting better than the average attack rate of 1.55/round) and 2576 total delay for BD/Joy.

TP'ing from full WS TP return to 100, BD/Joy will do it in 8 rounds still, but frequently in 7 because its very close, rounded down. Joy alone will do it in 10 rounds. Looking only at WS TP return -> 100 TP because after the first WS that's what you'll be dealing with. Add in Brutal because it rounds things out nicely. BD/Joy gets 13TP/round, 90 TP every 7 rounds then. Joy gets 10TP/round, 91 TP every 10 rounds. Add one round to both to simulate non-perfect (and still a little higher than real world merit) accuracy. 8 rounds vs 11 rounds. The difference is 2464 delay (Joy) vs 2576 delay (BD/Joy). About 2 seconds difference. After I apply the amount of haste I use to both setups (27% total gear and spell) the difference is more like 1 second. Cast Stoneskin or Blink just once for /WAR compared to Ni for /NIN and I've recovered that delay and then some.

This is the best I can do to simulate mathematically the TP gain difference. Its roughly 5% in favor of Joyeuse under these conditions, not 25% as had been suggested. BD/Joy has connected 18/20.56 hits vs Joy's 15/17.27 in this timespan to reach 100% TP starting from 9 for non-DA Vorpal or 10 from non-DA /NIN Evsiceration. Regarding other subjobs.... /WAR > /NIN for damage not because of the TP gain of Joyeuse though. Its because of Berserk. However, in merits there are no tanks. Stoneskin/Blink are slow casting, cost mp, and are not as good as /NIN shadows. DDing RDM will pull hate enough that taking hits through their standard defenses and maintaining those defenses become a liability.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: rdm as DD?

Supplemental damage doesn't matter that much when the whole point of PTs that level is to do as much damage as possible in a short amount of time.

. . .



Yellow Mage readies Non-Sequitur.

Does anybody else find it annoying that two other Mages can Melee better than us? One of them can heal better than us, to boot (though, to be fair, it is supposed to be their specialty).

[Akashimo]

Re: rdm as DD?

. . .



Yellow Mage readies Non-Sequitur.

Does anybody else find it annoying that two other Mages can Melee better than us? One of them can heal better than us, to boot (though, to be fair, it is supposed to be their specialty).

White Mage DD :D
/gears up and points at whm75 vs maat vid in other thread.