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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Callisto View Post
    In terms of macros, I use <st> for all of my party buffs(Refresh/Haste/Regen/Cures/Pro/Shell) to make it easy to buff while swinging,
    I have that. I also have Light Staff macro'ed for cures. The problem was, I didn't want to put Light Staff away, in case I need to switch to heavy curing mode.

    Originally posted by Callisto View Post
    Ibut in terms of crowd control I honestly just use the menu and manually select Sleep > target. I wouldn't want to change my current Sleep macros to <st>'s as it would slow down my sleeping in non-melee situations.
    Well... My sleep macros are always on <stnpc> unless I need to sleepga charmed people. I only put that line in about <st...> for the benefit of other RDMs attempting this.

    My trouble with crowd control was due to the lack of attention and anticipation. As I've written, melee'ing was a distraction. Needed to keep track of where the puller (WHM) was, and face camera to where he'll be, and don't have a lot of extra critters I have to switch through when I hit the sleep macro.

    He usually pulled and Repose the critters nicely, so I let my guard down. Good thing he had Reraise III. >_>;

    Originally posted by Callisto View Post
    The 2 most important things I can stress is that 1) you shouldn't expect to be a 'real' DD, it's about adding supplemental damage to help make the difference in keeping chains,
    And, don't let your ego get in the way--an average BRD or COR will do more for the party's damage output than a very well geared RDM's sword. Without another mage to watch of the party's HP bars, it's much better not to melee, unless you're really, really good at switching between tasks fast.

    Originally posted by Callisto View Post
    2) if you really want to try it and not give yourself a bad name, you can't half-ass it. Pony up for some Acc/Atk/STR gear before you give it a shot, make sure your sword is skilled up, and if you can pump some merits into it.
    Totally agree here--don't even think about melee'ing in merit party without capped sword skill.

    If I see a real DD with 72% accuracy like I had, I'd demand he stop using my merit time to skill up, and/or put on real DD gear. Or, I'd just ask the leader to replace that waste of party slot with any of ten other DDs seeking.

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  • Callisto
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    I attempted DD RDM last night! Sort of. Invite from a WHM to Greater Colibri camp.

    I was skeptical, but desperate for limit points. Just before I step on the pad to teleport to staging point, the leader (WHM) asked if it would be a bad setup with WHM and RDM, and whether he should switch to BRD or THF.

    Told him BRD would be best, but he replied he didn't have /NIN ready. I told him even Utusemi: Ichi would be good; heck, BRD/WHM + RDM would be better than RDM + WHM. He was still reluctant; turned out he hated the job. XD

    Didn't have to heart to make this nice WHM switch to BRD, but I didn't want to leech, either. So, compromise: I take a shot at DD RDM.

    DD gears (when not casting spells):
    Optical Hat
    Joyeuse
    Tariqah (Shield; Acc+4, Eva+4)
    Scorpion Harness
    Life Belt

    DD Merits
    Sword Skill (4)

    Food:
    Squid Sushi

    Support Job:
    /DRK

    All in all, pretty badly geared for a DD; I forgot my Accuracy+ rings and Attack+ back piece, but even if I had them, I'd be still way low on attack and somewhat short on accuracy. Eating Squid Sushi helped a lot, but didn't exactly make me a real swordsman.

    Having not melee'd in exp party since Lv.20-something, I was basically fumbling through the first half of the party. I had two Haste, two Refresh, backup heal, and back up sleep duties. WHM was pulling. ._.

    Did about 8.86% of total damage. 72.13% accuracy; pretty low by merit party standards. Enblizzard was heavily but inconsistantly resisted; added up to be 1.4% of total damage output of the party.

    I'd sum up my performance as a minor kill speed boost.

    Notes:
    • Mid party, we changed tank and DDs, making more detailed comparisons hard to make. Generally speaking, my RDM/DRK out damaged DRG's Wyvern by more than two to one, in fights I can melee. So, if Wyvern's damage was considered useful, mine should have been doubly so?
    • Couldn't melee in every fight. Multiple links and adds happen at times, and I couldn't afford the distraction of melee'ing during those. Sword away, staves out. I also do not Convert near the party if it's fighting something--call it survival instinct.
    • I did crowd control poorly, and the WHM died once because of it. Switching between melee'ing and crowd control smoothly requires practice and vigilance--and proper macro with <stnpc> instead of <t>.
    • Vorpal Blade with Souleater (and Stoneskin) is fun; managed to hit 491 once. Barely avoided losing my sushi a few times, though. This is not doable with out another mage--it eats straight through Stoneskin, and may require much extra curing if left on for a few attack rounds after.
    • Didn't track exp/hour, but I think it wasn't too great. Part of it was the lack of BRD or COR or "extra DD", part of it was that some of the DDs in party weren't very good at all.
    • As much fun as it was, I wouldn't recommend RDM/DRK for melee'ing in exp parties to most people. Even at Colibri camp.
    • However, if someone is determined to try, the minimum requirement should be: Joyeuse, sushi, and at least Accuracy+40 from equipment. Preferably more accuracy. A lot more. Some Attack+ gear would be nice, too. (You don't want to suck more than I did. >_> )
    • Shouldn't have to mention this, but bring mage gear, too. Need the MP+ for convert, Light Staff for heavy curing, and Dark Staff for hMP and crowd control, etc. No, you're not supposed to have 10 spaces for holding Wind Crystals and Colibri beaks.
    • No, I didn't meet the minimum requirement I set. I had intended to, but was in too much of a rush, and forgot some gear. /sigh
    Glad you had some fun with it at least.

    In terms of macros, I use <st> for all of my party buffs(Refresh/Haste/Regen/Cures/Pro/Shell) to make it easy to buff while swinging, but in terms of crowd control I honestly just use the menu and manually select Sleep > target. I wouldn't want to change my current Sleep macros to <st>'s as it would slow down my sleeping in non-melee situations.

    And yeah, +40~ Acc is about the good zone for me not counting the sushi, my set gives +40 or +48 depending on which sword I use. I do prefer Sole when I can afford it just because of extra STR, there's alot of room to add more STR as RDM before you get anywhere close to capping fSTR.

    The 2 most important things I can stress is that 1) you shouldn't expect to be a 'real' DD, it's about adding supplemental damage to help make the difference in keeping chains, and 2) if you really want to try it and not give yourself a bad name, you can't half-ass it. Pony up for some Acc/Atk/STR gear before you give it a shot, make sure your sword is skilled up, and if you can pump some merits into it.

    Edit: Vs. Colibri I almost always go with Enblizzard due to both their native weakness to it as well as my Ice Accuracy merits, it gets resisted much less often than other enspells regardless of what day it is.
    Last edited by Callisto; 01-29-2008, 07:13 AM.

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    I attempted DD RDM last night! Sort of. Invite from a WHM to Greater Colibri camp.

    I was skeptical, but desperate for limit points. Just before I step on the pad to teleport to staging point, the leader (WHM) asked if it would be a bad setup with WHM and RDM, and whether he should switch to BRD or THF.

    Told him BRD would be best, but he replied he didn't have /NIN ready. I told him even Utusemi: Ichi would be good; heck, BRD/WHM + RDM would be better than RDM + WHM. He was still reluctant; turned out he hated the job. XD

    Didn't have to heart to make this nice WHM switch to BRD, but I didn't want to leech, either. So, compromise: I take a shot at DD RDM.

    DD gears (when not casting spells):
    Optical Hat
    Joyeuse
    Tariqah (Shield; Acc+4, Eva+4)
    Scorpion Harness
    Life Belt

    DD Merits
    Sword Skill (4)

    Food:
    Squid Sushi

    Support Job:
    /DRK

    All in all, pretty badly geared for a DD; I forgot my Accuracy+ rings and Attack+ back piece, but even if I had them, I'd be still way low on attack and somewhat short on accuracy. Eating Squid Sushi helped a lot, but didn't exactly make me a real swordsman.

    Having not melee'd in exp party since Lv.20-something, I was basically fumbling through the first half of the party. I had two Haste, two Refresh, backup heal, and back up sleep duties. WHM was pulling. ._.

    Did about 8.86% of total damage. 72.13% accuracy; pretty low by merit party standards. Enblizzard was heavily but inconsistantly resisted; added up to be 1.4% of total damage output of the party.

    I'd sum up my performance as a minor kill speed boost.

    Notes:
    • Mid party, we changed tank and DDs, making more detailed comparisons hard to make. Generally speaking, my RDM/DRK out damaged DRG's Wyvern by more than two to one, in fights I can melee. So, if Wyvern's damage was considered useful, mine should have been doubly so?
    • Out damaged our PLD--but he was actually our WAR. When the NIN left, he was sent home to change in a hurry. Not sure if he had a better set up he could've brought if he had time to mule.
    • Couldn't melee in every fight. Multiple links and adds happen at times, and I couldn't afford the distraction of melee'ing during those. Sword away, staves out. I also did not Convert near the party if it's fighting something--call it survival instinct.
    • I did crowd control poorly, and the WHM died once because of it. Switching between melee'ing and crowd control smoothly requires practice and vigilance--and proper macro with <stnpc> instead of <t>.
    • Vorpal Blade with Souleater (and Stoneskin) is fun; managed to hit 491 once. Barely avoided losing my sushi a few times, though. This is not doable with out another mage--it eats straight through Stoneskin, and may require much extra curing if left on for a few attack rounds after.
    • Didn't track exp/hour, but I think it wasn't too great. Part of it was the lack of BRD or COR or "extra DD", part of it was that some of the DDs in party weren't very good at all.
    • As much fun as it was, I wouldn't recommend RDM/DRK for melee'ing in exp parties to most people. Even at Colibri camp.
    • However, if someone is determined to try, the minimum requirement should be: Joyeuse, sushi, and at least Accuracy+40 from equipment. Preferably more accuracy. A lot more. Some Attack+ gear would be nice, too. (You don't want to suck more than I did. >_> )
    • Shouldn't have to mention this, but bring mage gear, too. Need the MP+ for convert, Light Staff for heavy curing, and Dark Staff for hMP and crowd control, etc. No, you're not supposed to have 10 spaces for holding Wind Crystals and Colibri beaks.
    • No, I didn't meet the minimum requirement I set. I had intended to, but was in too much of a rush, and forgot some gear. /sigh
    Last edited by ItazuraNhomango; 01-29-2008, 06:59 AM. Reason: Kinda obvious, but bring mage gear, too.

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  • Glued
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    lol colbri are the exception for anyone to melee on ive even seen whm come down for some staff action a nice whiff fest but its better than sitting on your ass watching the grass grow

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  • Icemage
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Celeal View Post
    If there is a BRD in the Colbri party and the RDM is taking the Melee Songs... maybe the damage output from the RDM is decent.

    Seriously, if MP is not a concern in the Colbri burn party, I would ask the RDM to melee.
    On just Colibri, I agree.

    Don't try that jazz on Mamool Ja, though.


    Icemage

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  • Celeal
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    If there is a BRD in the Colbri party and the RDM is taking the Melee Songs... maybe the damage output from the RDM is decent.

    Seriously, if MP is not a concern in the Colbri burn party, I would ask the RDM to melee.

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  • Glued
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    hmmm guess i just like to lie then even when i plug my stats into a damage calcutator it says 17-34 damage from my weaker wapon and 28-45 for my stronger 1 i must be lying, hell maybe ill even find exact stats on colbri and factor in pericing damage too maybe itll be more, i mean colbri nt no 75 mobs and sure as hell dosent have high def to melee and is most certainly weak to peircing, maybe i really dont know how to read numbers and such, maybe its just the fact you dont want to beleive it, hmm i dunno maybe ill hop on game and give you my stats so you can check it yourself i dunno maybe that might shut you up ill be back with them
    ------------------------------------------
    oh crap guess im in the wrong and cant acctually read numbers my atk is 339 not 229 *slaps his own face* well im sorry i feel like a douche now
    Last edited by Glued; 01-18-2008, 12:34 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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  • Spinnthrift
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    And - again I'm going to call you out with your laughable 229 attack and landing 30 damage a hit. You're lying. Melee cRatio works well enough for everyone else - except you it seems. Why do I know you're lying? Because I've played Thf and Nin through those levels with enough attack to get 30 a hit and 60 crits (off ~30 damage weapons). And it wasn't 229. Hence my previous post.

    Going to do a BG and call POID at this point.

    Yes - I could read your post, gave me a headache though trying to decipher it, and my point stands. If you aren't willing to put the effort into typing out a little post, how are you going to put the effort into your job to do it properly? Especially if you are lying so blatantly about your damage (which you are as there is no way you can perform the way you say you are with the stats you're reporting).

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  • Callisto
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Haha, I didn't see the post below mine at first, I was like 229~ Attack and Lv. 14 DEX rings, are you high?

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  • Glued
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    while i accept your criticism, i must inform you i dont often melee hell i never do outside of soloing this gear is mostly for campaign, minus the dex rings they were all i had at the time and wasnt going to go shopping for DD RDM equipment wheni dont use it. Perhaps the THF, and NIN were badly equipped i imagine the NIN was they are lazy enough as it is. I said i out damaged them swinging which i did, but there WS's blew my damage down to piddle shit. On average my dagger was hiting for 20-30 and would crit fairly ofter for 40-60, my off hand was hitting for 30-40 and would crit 60-80 including the enblizzard on both for an extra 28 damage as it was seldom resisted. The reason i was mentioning this was to show RDM numbers are not that much worse than some minor DD's, can i parse to a war drg sam drk hell no, but can i open WS for them so they can close heavier you bet your ass i can. Which leads me to another thing parse's dont take credit in for you lowering resistance to a closing WS that extra damage those jobs do gets tacked onto them not RDM.
    \
    *added*

    As for RDM DD i agree with you many do half ass it, i myself just did it for something to do, i wasnt there for glory i was boerd out of my skull from lame colbri fights. If i geared for it i would have had a SH PCC and woodsman rings amongst other thing is i dont melee i dont like to id rather have complete control of every aspect from the backline as a god-like general. Boasting yes maybe i am, shitty equipment yes it was, half assing my job never.

    */end add*

    On the note of judging my punctation and grammar, frankly i dont give a damn, evidently it did not affect your ability to read it and reply to it did it. hmmm. clearly not.

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  • Spinnthrift
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    No offense, but if your attention to Red Mage follows on your attention to punctuation and spelling (and please don't pull the English is a second language card - all languages use punctuation, and all the languages I've studied used capitalisation), then I would seriously consider the majority of your boasts, just that - boasts (with no grounding in reality).

    Either that - or post your Thf's gearsets (with pictures or it didn't happen)- as to be honest, there is no way a Rdm with a grand and epic (fail) total of 229 attack should be outdamaging anyone on any exp mob at 60+.

    Why can I say this with some certainty...? Well.. a minor detail called level correction and pDif. And how do I know? Well - with my gimped 400 odd attack during the 60's, I was averaging 1 cRatio on most exp mobs (with neutral weapon types, weak ones I did more). Which equated to me doing pretty much the damage stated on the tin (on my weapons). Given that you're barely over half my attack, I see no way in hell you'd be outdamaging me even on Colibri mobs on Thf or any other DD job. Hence why the boast comment above.

    Secondly - you're the reason why I'm so anti Rdm-DD. You half-arse it. Level 14 Dex Rings? Get out. You're not out-damaging a Wyvern or jug pet, let alone a moderately geared DD. And unless your party sucks to the ninth level of hell and back, you're parses and your posts are lying. I had some Thf gear on when I tried my Rdm damage, and while I outparsed a badly geared Thf (he had your gear setup that you boasted about out DD'ing on), I wouldn't come close to a moderately geared one.

    I could almost start to believe that some Rdm might be capable of warranting not being on a back line, but they are fewer and further between than I'd care to measure. I'd rather aim to be a great backliner akin to Icemage and others, than to fail at both. If you're going to pretend to be a DD, don't come telling people who know better, that you can acheive it with a setup that would make any genuine DD laugh at you with derision.

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  • Glued
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    ya i was shocked when my parse showed i had out dmaged ninjas and theifs in damage (excluding ws's and sata's) to tell the truth, im always shocked when i out damage melee on anything (see if i can find the parse crap on my comp to show you all)

    when i was leveling my whm in kazham recently i was out damaging the 2 ninjas and the cor in my party and seraph strike was doubling up the rng and wars ws i was facinated until i found they were weak to light and it didnt seem so hot then

    p.s. i paid a pl to main heal already did it on rdm mage round 2 no thanks spend my easily soloed gil from nm drops i rdm we so god lol
    Last edited by Glued; 01-18-2008, 08:52 AM. Reason: was going to change we so god but we are

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  • Callisto
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Doobity doo...I guess I'll toss in some input as to how I do it since I'm the one who says it's so easy...I don't use windower macros, so I have to be a tad tricky with my swaps.

    First off, I know it's situational. More often than not I end up in a LS party with BRD RDM WHM, so I'm not responsible for main healing, and only half a Haste cycle.

    The two most important enablers to me meleeing are 1) having my non-variable potency buffs(Refresh, Regen, Haste) on <st> macros, so that I can easily cast them on party members while engaged on an enemy; and 2) having my spell macros swap in the skill+ pieces for enf/ele/dark/enh, then swapping back my ChivChain/Hollow Earring as my base neck/left earring. This makes sure that I always have a decent Acc boost while idle(having extra MP in those slots would be useless to me, as they would just be swapped out when I cast a debuff/buff/nuke, I have mp pieces for my Convert Macro in those slots.

    Otherwise I swap in a pretty full DD set, I play on console so I need to use 2 macros to get the full set in:
    Melee Set

    2 other important notes: First, I really never use /NIN if I intend to melee, Stoneskin+Blink is plenty enough damage mitigation in a normal party with the amount of hate you'll pull, and Vorpal Blade is too nice to give up. I would much rather take /DRK or to a lesser extent /WAR and retain more utility than Utsusemi. Secondly, if you want to melee as RDM, you can't half-ass it. You either do it well or don't attempt it. This means Sole Sushi(yes, not Squid, you need the STR), add in a large chunk of Accuracy gear, and pump some merits into sword.

    In terms of casting keeping you from meleeing, really the best thing you can do is switch to AF1Hat/AF2Body/Loq Earring if you have them all, but max your FastCast so that you get your buffs done faster.

    A large focus should also be on your Enhancing Magic, when you buff yourself you want it as high as possible, seeing as how your enspells will be nearly half your damage. For the most part if I'm fighting a VT+, I go with Enblizzard regardless of day, as my added Ice Accuracy merits largely cut down on partial resists.

    And I have no delusions that I should compare to the DDs in the party, if I were to parse withing 10% of a SAM, DRK, RNG, or other DD I'd kick them from the party for leeching XP...however, the supplemental damage from a RDM with a good hit%(85+) hitting WS' for 250-400 a pop can easily make the difference in getting that next chain when combined with 3 'real' DDs.

    And for the love of feathered hats, I don't care what you're fighting, don't Convert next to the mob. Just don't do it.

    And on that note, I just got called out for using the internet at work, gotta go!

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Dia II is usually OK to cast on Colibri for RDM/WHM.

    If it bounce back, Stoneskin will handle it. If it lands on a melee or tank, odds are they have Utsusemi. If not, a quick Erase will do the job.

    Slow is good to use as well, as long as the tank has Haste. If anyone else gets hit by parroted Slow, just Haste the person if he isn't already on Haste.


    * * *

    NIN tanks may complain if you bounce more than one or two spells at them, though, eating up copy images. PLD tanks will be unhappy if Paralyze caused them to miss up Cures or something, but Dia, Poison, etc. won't kill them, and all can be removed easily enough.

    Otherwise, pre-meriting it's OK to enfeeb those suckers a bit. In very smooth flowing merit parties, I try to cast Dia II on Greater Colibris to improve kill speed, but usually can't spare the MP to do more than that.

    * * *

    If a RDM wants to rely on Utsusemi for handling parroted enfeebs, he's pretty much volunteering to pull. Not exactly a bad idea for Colibri, if there's WHM or SMN in party.

    I would order it as Paralyze > Slow > Sleep (at camp), since Paralyze would be the most troublesome if it lands on the RDM, so want to do it when copy images are sure to be up. (Let the Colibri cast both Paralyze and Slow before sleeping it, of course.)
    Last edited by ItazuraNhomango; 01-18-2008, 06:24 AM.

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  • Glued
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    ya i dont use shadows to much, when i melee mobs with AoE whats the point i jut flush money down the drain since it rip all shadows apart, at least SS+Phalanx reduces all dmg to 0 AoE or not.

    on cobri i do but still SS+Phalanx isnt hat bad i have a pretty good length on them both (longer than shadows) and know a trick to keep my SS up indefinitly,

    in terms of other mobs we can melee on your correct colbri is an exception along with anything else that has wings or is weak to peircing which is a fair amount of mobs. more so than slashing.

    and yes it is possible to land fast cast enfeebs on the colbri however i generally dont take the chance unless i follow it up with a quick cure to erase the enfeeb.

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