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  • Icemage
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Truece View Post
    I do keep bludgeon set. Off the top of my head, I can't say for sure how much damage it would regularly do, but I know that I was unimpressed with it's performance against Campaign mobs. So unimpressed, in fact, that I regularly forget that I've got it set, and thus don't use it.

    Now, my sword skill was (and still is) a bit under-levelled, so that may be why Bludgeon's damage was (and still is) so lousy.
    Yeah, if you're getting low numbers it's because one or more hits are missing. Cap out that Sword skill, munch on some cheap sushi, wear some ACC gear, and you'll see the damage improve dramatically.


    Icemage

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  • Truece
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Icemage View Post
    Set Bludgeon in your Blue Magic the next time you use /BLU. You'll be surprised at how consistent and efficient it really is.
    I do keep bludgeon set. Off the top of my head, I can't say for sure how much damage it would regularly do, but I know that I was unimpressed with it's performance against Campaign mobs. So unimpressed, in fact, that I regularly forget that I've got it set, and thus don't use it.

    Now, my sword skill was (and still is) a bit under-levelled, so that may be why Bludgeon's damage was (and still is) so lousy.

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  • Icemage
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Truece View Post
    Really? I'd figure that the damage would get heavily resisted more often than not due to a gimped blue magic skill.
    Resists are basically misses. Rarely happens as long as your melee accuracy is up to snuff.

    In the case of Bludgeon, it caps out so very early, and is so MP-efficient for damage that it doesn't really matter that your Blue Magic skill is capped.

    I take /BLU to campaign all the time and it is incredible how little damage I take, even from NMs. It is a great defensive subjob, but I don't see it adding much to a merit PT other than access to vorpal blade, and a short-recast stun.
    Set Bludgeon in your Blue Magic the next time you use /BLU. You'll be surprised at how consistent and efficient it really is.


    Icemage

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  • Lmnop
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by arkaine23 View Post
    Head Butt/Bludgeon are going to slow that down rather than add meaningful damage. Their base D is heavily penalized by lack of Blue magic skill.
    Actually, .5 second casting times (despite long animations) means BLU spam barely cuts into your DPS. For all practical DD RDM application, it will always out-DD just sword alone.

    However, I agree with Itaz. Rdm melee is built around "something else to contribute between performing my main tasks" and spending more MP on Bludgeon-Butt doesn't really fit the bill.

    Also, of note: Joyeuse is piercing damage, so no need to /nin and do Dagger/Joy. Joy mainhand, you'll give the Colibri hell. Note, though, that your WSs will still be slashing damage, so they won't be as big of numbers as Dagger Eviscerate. But +50% tp will always win. It's especially nice for RDM who may have to equip swap a staff when things start to go wrong.

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  • arkaine23
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Ideally, you're looking at 2.5 hits every 4.5-5 seconds x ~85% accuracy. You're pdif will be 1.1-1.25 on average easily with just Dia (to say nothing of Minuets), so you'd be hitting for more than the base D of your weapons. The camp getting the most discussion has piercing-weak targets, which take I believe an extra 20% damage.... looking at 45-60 damage/hit probably. Should have a 10-15% crit rate easily, for some 80-100ish hits. And then enspells are going to add a little to each hit.

    Head Butt/Bludgeon are going to slow that down rather than add meaningful damage. Their base D is heavily penalized by lack of Blue magic skill.

    You will be eating a few extra sushi's though due to food theft when you (believe or not) take hate from the other DDs on occasion. Its frequent enough to annoy, but not generally too bad.
    Last edited by arkaine23; 01-31-2008, 09:04 AM.

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    The accuracy is based on accuracy of main handed weapon. The damage rating is based on Blue Magic skill.

    You'd have no more troubling landing Bludgeon than sword hits, but most likely but it'll hit like lumpy old fruitcakes rather than what the impressive graphics might otherwise suggest. Even if the damage is OK, I'd give it a pass; meleeing is damage to be made between spells--shouldn't be casting extra spells to burn up MP faster.

    If I have lot's MP to spare in that situation, I'd rather shoulder a bit more of the hasting and healing duty, and let the WHM join the DD club. (Yes, pun intended.)

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  • Truece
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Icemage View Post
    With a WHM in party, I think I'd sub BLU for Bludgeon spamming on Colibri, since they can't reflect physical Blue Magic. Way more damage than you'll ever see from swinging a sword, even Joyeuse...
    Really? I'd figure that the damage would get heavily resisted more often than not due to a gimped blue magic skill.

    I take /BLU to campaign all the time and it is incredible how little damage I take, even from NMs. It is a great defensive subjob, but I don't see it adding much to a merit PT other than access to vorpal blade, and a short-recast stun.

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  • arkaine23
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    No.

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  • Icemage
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    The options?
    1. Play the back line RDM as usual, but semi-leech the limit points.
    2. Play the puller RDM. (But, the WHM was playing puller already, and I suck at pulling.)
    3. Force the nice WHM switch to BRD.
    4. Melee as RDM for minor damage.

    #1 isn't acceptable to me; I don't leech. Can't stand the idea of going to exp/merit party and get points for not doing much.

    #3 is the only option for a stab at "optimal" exp/hour. But, the WHM was a nice guy, and I didn't feel like imposing when he obviously didn't want to merit on BRD.

    That left #2 or #4. For me, anyway.
    With a WHM in party, I think I'd sub BLU for Bludgeon spamming on Colibri, since they can't reflect physical Blue Magic. Way more damage than you'll ever see from swinging a sword, even Joyeuse...


    Icemage

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Celeal View Post
    And back to IfritnoItazura's case. If IfritnoItazura did not use the sword and hang back, is that a better approach? What else can be done?
    The options?
    1. Play the back line RDM as usual, but semi-leech the limit points.
    2. Play the puller RDM. (But, the WHM was playing puller already, and I suck at pulling.)
    3. Force the nice WHM switch to BRD.
    4. Melee as RDM for minor damage.

    #1 isn't acceptable to me; I don't leech. Can't stand the idea of going to exp/merit party and get points for not doing much.

    #3 is the only option for a stab at "optimal" exp/hour. But, the WHM was a nice guy, and I didn't feel like imposing when he obviously didn't want to merit on BRD.

    That left #2 or #4. For me, anyway.

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  • arkaine23
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    I like having 10+ slots free to collect stacks of stuff to sell, and as buffer room to easily drop crap now and then to make sure no KS or BS get lost. I still lug a Pluto and Aquilo staff most times.

    Some cases do warrant a change of style. How many of us have been in 2 RDM parties, or RDM + other mage parties where mp seemed plentiful but kill speed seemed a bit too slow? DNCs now are taking loads of mp out of party healing coverage too, even though they're not really main healers. We take pride in how we can manage all the magely duties in merit and help churn out big xp. But we also complain about hating main-healing. When I see extra healing in a non-ideal party I don't groan and consider making excuses not to join. I smile and offer to check camps I know I can melee in to see if they're open, and mention to the leader that I've got maxed merits and HQ melee gear I wouldn't mind dusting off.

    The point is to recognize when supplemental damage is worth it. And not just do a decent job, but to excel and maybe raise some eyebrows... breakthrough and exceed what other players are expecting from a RDM melee. Makes us all look good when done correctly and in the right situations. May not be worth it to most to do all the work getting the merits and HQ gear, but its not expensive to cover the basics. I think most RDM have at least some melee gear, especially these days where most players are multi-job 75's.

    And we can always hope SE does something soon to help us out for frontlining like they've said they want to.
    Last edited by arkaine23; 01-30-2008, 09:11 AM.

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  • Callisto
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Just a side note, there's no need to leave your staves in your MH just to include a melee set. >.>

    I have all 8 staves, 2 swords, 1 shield, 1 ranged, 3 hats, 6 necks, 5 earrings, 6 bodies, 3 hands, 4 rings, 2 backs, 3 belts, 4 legs, and 4 boots, echo drops, food, ks/bs, imp. silver, and my lucky Bio II scroll on me at all times, and I still have a few spots open. Just because you might not use it all the time doesn't mean you can't carry it just in case, do your gobbybags.

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  • Celeal
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
    And my point was it was an extreme "if" and "maybe" considering what BRD and RDM end up doing when they're invited together. I thought that was pretty obvious.

    Again, the only way it becomes common is if you build the PT to have that possibility. Seek and it will never happen.
    It happens. I joined a level 62 pick-up party 2 weeks ago consist of RDM/WHM, BRD/WHM, NIN/WAR, WAR/NIN, MNK/THF (me), DNC/NIN and exp on Colibri. The backline RDM's MP just "sitting there and doing nothing" even after all the Cures and Hastes, only Convert when Reraise + Buffs wears off... Later when I find a RNG/NIN to replace me, that I expect one less DD to Haste.

    And back to IfritnoItazura's case. If IfritnoItazura did not use the sword and hang back, is that a better approach? What else can be done?
    Last edited by Celeal; 01-30-2008, 08:08 AM.

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  • arkaine23
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    IfritnoItazura: About minimizing cycles: I meant to communicate and balance things with the party healer and try to squeeze some extra swing time for yourself. And there could always be a 2nd RDM, in which case your need to maintain those spells is quite low, like self-only. About enspell: not many jobs can straight boost their damage/hit by so much 100% of the time. The resist rate sucks, but you should get an average around 11-13 I'd think even vs magic resistant Colibri. I did leave off curing from my minimal casting routine. Should only be needed in emergencies. Last time I was with a WHM at G Colibri, even she started meleeing now and then.

    I was able to land sleeps whilst dual-wielding Blau Dolch and Joyeuse. I swapped everything else to my normal sleeping gear for the cast though, 320 enfeebling skill (full merits, earring, torque, af body, nashira legs). I'm sure it can be done with 300-315 skill fairly consistently too. Of course I could also just start soloing a link as /NIN, though my haste/refresh cycles might get delayed 10-20 seconds until the 1st mob was dead and someone pulled hate off me.

    Slow is never really needed on Colibri, and most DDs will get antsy about enfeebles flying around randomly even if Haste immunizes them to Slow. G Colibri can't put out a whole lot of damage. Only a 1/3 chance of them even doing the damaging TP move. If there are two mages and melee are blinking properly, both mages will be at 75%+ mp the whole time.

    Compare Cure IV for 390 vs 430, or Cure III 180 vs 210. Is that really a huge difference worth staff swap TP loss? For a backup healer? Especially if you could've turned out some Eviscerations with that TP...

    Bringing the staves or not I haven't had much trouble. You can always keep your melee/staffless macros on the palette right next to your regular staff-switching macro palette. Switch modes easily that way if you need to.

    The hardest thing for me is usually how fast mp goes if say I've got 4+ hastes to cycle and 2+ refreshes or maybe some DDs that don't share hate very well (or aren't /NIN) and wind up taking more damage than they should. Mp and convert timer merits make it work though. Its very rare for me to have to stop fighting, switch to full yigit, and pull back for ballads or to take a knee.
    Last edited by arkaine23; 01-30-2008, 09:25 AM.

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by arkaine23 View Post
    Cures (loss of 10% curing potency is acceptable if you are a backup healer)
    Not sure if I agree with this; I want the ability to take over main healing anytime it becomes necessary. Light Staff should always be in inventory, not in bazaar, and no more than a macro switch away.

    Maybe Dark staff can be in the bazaar, but it comes out in a hurry when party's MP gets low. Kill speed is nice, chaining is great, but nothing ruins exp/hour faster than a death. Must always have MP enough to cure.

    Actually, sleep is important enough at Colibri camp that I wouldn't go without Dark Staff ready; those birds take the oddest paths and link easily, and a missed Sleep can require a Sleep II and a Cure III or more to fix. Very much worth my TP to make sure it lands.

    Originally posted by arkaine23 View Post
    Hopefully you've got a BRD for Minuets, but even if there isn't one, speed, enspell, and piercing weakness go a long way to push mediocre damage into acceptable damage.
    I don't think people want BRD, WHM, and RDM in the same party these days--certainly not for Greater Colibri. It's pretty much "pick two", and usually not "WHM + RDM", either.

    With capped Enhancing magic (plus extra pieces thrown in on casting), I still see heavy (if inconsistent) resists with Enblizzard on Greater Colibri. En- spell was helpful, but not all that it can be. Something like: 19, 19, 2, 9, 2, 2, 19, ... was pretty common on neutral weather.


    Originally posted by arkaine23 View Post
    If you have to maintain haste/refreshes try to keep them at a minimum.
    If I'm not maintaining those, why am I even in party?

    Originally posted by arkaine23 View Post
    AOE: Status AOE, ok you don't wanna eat those. If there are two backline mages that can status fix though, it really doesn't matter. Damage AOE? RDM has better defenses than the rest of the frontline and can heal themselves.
    Depends on which status ailments, it may matter even with RDM, WHM, and BLM in party. BLM needs lots of MP heal time, use spells with very long cast time, so is generally unsuited for status fixes without decimating their damage output. It's less of loss of damage to have the RDM go as /WHM, stay in the back line, and help handle status fixes and backup cure than to make the BLM do it.

    WHM, SMN, RDM together would be a bit different. But, at Lv.70+, probably would be better if the SMN use MP for BP:Rage instead of backup curing if there's a RDM to do that.

    Between contributing a small amount of damage by melee'ing or staying in the back line to concentrate on keeping the party running smoothly, the choice is usually obvious--the right time to melee is fairly rare.

    Originally posted by arkaine23 View Post
    Dropping normal duties: I have to agree with this one. If you can't dispel, dia, and maintain haste/refresh and keep your mp pool going until convert, then don't melee. Or at least know when its time to pull back and do the usual casting/resting thing.
    You left out curing. That is a part of our main duty. ^_^b

    Originally posted by arkaine23 View Post
    Staff swapping necessary: [ ...] However how often do NIN tanks cast their own Slow and Blind? Slow and Paralyze Gravity, Silence, Sleep, and Poison are the only enfeebles we'd commonly cast where staves are really critical. Slow actually sticks pretty well even without a staff.
    I tried casting Slow w/out staves on Greater Colibris; none landed. Didn't macro in enfeebling gears, though, since it was one of those "I never thought I'd need a pulling macro on RDM" thing I did in 10 seconds. (Only 4 merits in Enfeebling Magic.)

    Recast on Slow is bad enough that I don't really want to cast again if I can help it, if the tank needs it.

    Originally posted by arkaine23 View Post
    Its usually with PLD tanks and vs IT++ or very high defense mobs where meleeing is tougher to justify and enfeebling gets better mileage.
    Don't forget nuking on MB. It happens rarely, but more often than a party I should melee in.

    Originally posted by arkaine23 View Post
    As with anything, its situational. The situations are rare, but not non-existant. I don't turn down parties where the build isn't optimal. I figure everyone needs xp and I shouldn't be picky about it. Often the non-ideal parties can get a little boost from a melee RDM if the backline can support it and if the RDM knows what he's doing.
    1. (Underlined) I like the way you think. ^_^
    2. (Bold) Now, that's the real truth of RDM DD'ing.

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