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  • Omgwtfbbqkitten
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Vyuru View Post
    While I agree here as well, I also view it as poor form to be kicking people from a party after it gets going.
    My point was the "scenario" talked about in this thread relies heavily on having WHM and BRD in PT so RDM as a rationale to melee. Healing and Hasting could be done by WHM, but I hardly see these PTs happen when I seek on BRD or COR. I'm not talking about dropping a WHM outright, I'm certainly not that cold, lol. I've actually had some higher chain PTs with a WHM as sole healer than I have with most RDM backing me, but that also speaks to the quality of the melees in those situation.

    I take invites as COR and I seldom see the 3mage/3melee setup. Its usually me and a RDM with no extra backline, if the is extra backline, its a BRD and I'm technically the 4th DD since I go /RNG. The times I have seen RDM melee at such a level, its just wasn't impressive. It was kinda like watching a DRK in the RoZ/CoP days, when they landed a big hit, they talked about it, pointed it out and everyone else just went "Eh, who cares."

    Anyway, my original point is still the best one - Campaign, Small EXP PTs or EXP PTs you form yourself are often the best situations for RDM melee. I'm sorry if I seem like a cruel bastard for not wanting you to melee in mainstream PT, but then, when I'm in a mainstream EXP PT, I just want fast EXP like everyone else. Everyone gives up a little something they want to make that happen, just the way it is.
    Last edited by Omgwtfbbqkitten; 02-04-2008, 05:47 PM.

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  • Vyuru
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Supplemental damage doesn't matter that much when the whole point of PTs that level is to do as much damage as possible in a short amount of time.
    Agree with ya here.

    We could drop that WHM, get a 4th DD and put you on the backline, which almost always happens anyway, and chains would be higher. But then, this is the situation you're dodging, isn't it?
    While I agree here as well, I also view it as poor form to be kicking people from a party after it gets going.

    Or you could just not join that kinda party I suppose.

    However the topic of the conversation is, is DDing Rdm acceptable under these/similar circumstances? Not make a new party as other jobs become available/whatever.

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  • Omgwtfbbqkitten
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Have to agree with Callisto; you're missing the point completely. We're not competitors to melee DDs--melee RDM done right provides supplement damage, that's all.
    Supplemental damage doesn't matter that much when the whole point of PTs that level is to do as much damage as possible in a short amount of time. We could drop that WHM, get a 4th DD and put you on the backline, which almost always happens anyway, and chains would be higher. But then, this is the situation you're dodging, isn't it?

    You're trying to make this about making meritting fun for your job, but everyone else just wants it done quickly. Its not about fun at all, just enhancing your character ASAP, really.

    Additionally, this dicussions has been Colibri this and Colibri that. Do you realize there are more merit mobs out there than this one? Do you know the EXP climate varies by server? Smaller populated server hardly ever leave MJSP or Thickets Colibri Camps. That's how it was on Titan. Its not that way on Odin, I can assure you, we'll fill out any camp we can. What happens for the RDMs who follow your Colibri strat, but don't get to do Colibri?

    What about Kindred, Abraxis, Trolls, Mamool and other mobs? You're just picking on the mob you can't cast many spells on.

    Am I reading the thread? Yes, I am. Typical RDM diva talk, situations that I never see in merit PTs, "not much damage, but worthwhile" and lots of colibri talk. /DRK sub, OK so you have stun and some DRK JAs now, its not a better melee sub than /WAR. What am I missing here?
    Last edited by Omgwtfbbqkitten; 02-04-2008, 05:29 PM.

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  • Akashimo
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Campaign > meripo.
    Mobs there, going by eye balling seeing how i don't have/use parsers, take the same general damage as VT mobs I've gone against in merit parties using thf and rdm dagger/swords. Best ws using rdm/drk, soul eater, no food, vorpal blade, 590. Average hits fall between 37-50. Soul eater melee hits 60-80.

    Also, little bit off topic, BBQ, do you actually try to fully read everyone's posts or just pick and match keywords like /sea all inv, smn/whm = whm?

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
    If RDM is doing all of his duties in PT, he's hardly doing worthwhile damage or TP gain in the eyes of real melee jobs.
    Have to agree with Callisto; you're missing the point completely. We're not competitors to melee DDs--melee RDM done right provides supplement damage, that's all.

    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
    That's why half of this topic is so covieniently discussing the "What if" 3melee/3mage setup.
    I wonder if I'm on BBQ's blacklist or something; this post marks the third time I have to mention "Hey, I had a WHM in merit party without BRD at Greater Colibri camp, and turned out meleeing was the best option." Most of the discussion on RDM melee'ing are not predicated on having both a BRD and WHM, though they would apply in that case.

    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
    Additionally, why isn't /WAR or other melee subs aside from /NIN being looked at here?
    Oh, and I was using RDM/DRK in that party, since I don't have a great dagger or capped skill or Evisceration. Not everyone is /NIN.

    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
    I hardly ever /NIN on the jobs I have at meripo level because the DoT from /NIN is disgusting.
    Reread Madrone's posts. Gears, calculations, analysis--he's got the Dagger+Sword combo fully covered on Greater Colibri.

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  • Lmnop
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Icemage View Post
    BRD BRD RDM WAR MNK WAR setup
    RDMs unable to attain this high of chains while meleeing is the least of what's wrong with this picture.

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  • Callisto
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
    If RDM is doing all of his duties in PT, he's hardly doing worthwhile damage or TP gain in the eyes of real melee jobs.

    For a RDM to really get good, worthwhile melee DoT, other obligations have to fall to the side. That's why half of this topic is so covieniently discussing the "What if" 3melee/3mage setup.
    'good, worthwile' is pretty subjective here as most of us are stressing it as a form of supplemental damage. Like I stated before, if I were parse within 5-10% of the 3 DDs I'd probably boot them for leeching, but in some setups there's really nothing else you could do the help your party out more than adding in some extra damage.

    As far as actually getting this sort of setup, I personally end up with either a WHM, or a BRD and a WHM in almost all my parties, alot of that is due who's on at the moment since they're usually LS parties though. Even in pickup groups though, I ended up with a WHM and/or a BRD more often than the ideal BRDx2 or BRD+COR RDM healer setup.

    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
    Additionally, why isn't /WAR or other melee subs aside from /NIN being looked at here? /NIN is good for some jobs, not so great for others. Its just the universally accepted subjob for meritpo. Doesn't mean its the best sub for your job in meritpo. I hardly ever /NIN on the jobs I have at meripo level because the DoT from /NIN is disgusting.
    You must've missed the part where I said I always use /DRK for melee and several others use /BLU.

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  • Omgwtfbbqkitten
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    If a RDM is covering all his duty in party, and melee, the extra damage is a bonus--call it a 105% effort?

    Calling a 105% effort a failure is rather harsh.
    If RDM is doing all of his duties in PT, he's hardly doing worthwhile damage or TP gain in the eyes of real melee jobs.

    For a RDM to really get good, worthwhile melee DoT, other obligations have to fall to the side. That's why half of this topic is so covieniently discussing the "What if" 3melee/3mage setup.

    If a RDM has a WHM and BRD on the backline, the RDM obviously doesn't have to put as much into curing and less into Haste, but how often does this situation happen at merit level? I merit in phases because I can get my merits pretty easily through BRD and COR, but I can tell you right now this situation is not one I'm ever invited to. And its one I'd only accept that situation of the RDM really, really, really was on top of thier shit.

    Additionally, why isn't /WAR or other melee subs aside from /NIN being looked at here? /NIN is good for some jobs, not so great for others. Its just the universally accepted subjob for meritpo. Doesn't mean its the best sub for your job in meritpo. I hardly ever /NIN on the jobs I have at meripo level because the DoT from /NIN is disgusting.

    Seeing as RDM and COR get access to the same swords and Daggers, and stripping it down to the WS that come from those, I'm just not seeing where /NIN benefits you in meritpo, it sure as hell doesn't benefit me for any situation but pulling.

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Celeal View Post
    After 8 pages, this dead horse is still alive and kicking.... XD
    Red Mage is interesting, that's all.

    It started off as a perfectly reasonable newbie question, with some very responsible replies, then someone toss in the "S-E says RDM should melee" card. That drew some more heated discussion, and attracted a few rants.

    Thankfully, it eventually turned into sane and detailed discussion on merit level RDM operations. Notably, Madrone chimed in with very detailed gear and game mechanism explanations of how RDM meleeing can operate optimally on Great Colibri, and Icemage reminded everyone how well a back line only RDM can work. Many others have added interesting personal perspectives and experiences as well, such as Callisto's puller/DD setup.

    * * *

    I don't know about other Red Mages, but as someone who has tried both DD and back line, I strongly prefer the back line for the sake of better experience points per hour. Not that I can't see myself doing (a lot) better next time I'm called upon to melee on RDM, but IMO, helping a party get safe and steady flow of exp is the service every RDM should strive to provide, front line, back line, or otherwise. Just that the majority of the time, that goal is best achieved from the back. (If someone really want to melee, there are quite a few other jobs for that!)

    My finest moment as a melee'ing DD RDM was in Yhoator Jungle, on those mandies which I tell every single newbie RDM not to melee on. Being the top DD in an utterly broken party was fun in a way, but painful in many others. An experience I'll never forget--and will never care to repeat if at all possible--is probably the best way to sum it up.

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  • Celeal
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    /em dies from Callisto's RDM DD awesomeness ..... Orz

    Seriously, unless something new is introduce to FFXI, I think this thread already covers most of RDM's melee idea + info.

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  • Callisto
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    /em melees Celeal's dead horse as RDM.

    Take that.

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  • Celeal
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    /hijack

    /em toss a dead horse into this thread*

    /end-of-hijack

    After 8 pages, this dead horse is still alive and kicking.... XD

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  • Callisto
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Heh you missed the joke part of that metinks. I actually don't merit anymore due to almost all of my time going to LS events, and when I do it's on COR, most of my limit points come during trigger farming nowadays.

    I also never said that a melee RDM is part of an optimal party setup, but realistically you can't always get BRD BRD RDM DDx3(note my earlier post where I said that in a setup of RDM BRD WHM DDx3, a very viable setup that I end up in often, a non-melee RDM is in fact dead weight).

    I only advocate that if there is nothing better to do and all RDM duties are handled, there is nothing wrong with taking out a sword and adding supplemental damage, and that people should not automatically knee-jerk into 'OMFG GIMP MELEE RDM!!!'. I also take care to point out as often as possible that you should only try it if you're willing to really put effort into gear and macros for it, and not slack on your main duties.

    And could I hit a chain like that with BRD WHM RDM DDx3, yes I believe I could do comparable, as generally when I melee I also pull/sleep nearby mobs to allow the BRD to pull ones from further out.

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  • Pteryx
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    I'd like to point out one thing: it occurs to me that SE didn't exactly say that they want RDM to DD. They only said they want RDM "to be used more as magical swordsmen". Maybe that doesn't mean dealing damage. Maybe it means, say, having Enstatuses -- an alternate means of sticking statuses that occurs so often that it can overcome resistance due to sheer volume of attempts in a short time at a low cost, and gets around any negative side-effects of direct casting *coughimpcoughcolibricough*. -- Pteryx

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    That's unkind, Icemage; everyone seriously discussing RDM melee here already know it's only for sub-optimal parties. >_>

    Poke fun at the people who think RDM should never main heal, but melee all the time instead?

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