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  • Icemage
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Akashimo View Post
    That view is what made the game so burn orientated. The end does not justify the means! You spend majority of your game life in exp/meripos, that part should be 1) fun and 2) not soul sucking with endgame elistism on high chaining exp/hr. If anything, this game needs to be rolled back to CoP days before ToAu to really know what is gained and what is lost amoung all players. The difference in support jobs skill and additudes is one of them. Another is willingness to settle for anything outside of the meripo hotspot without it completely destroying the party.
    (1) Merit parties are fun for me. I adore playing RDM in merit parties. I'm never lacking for things to do, there's always a new threat to deal with, and hey, it gives me lots of points - bonus! For me, it's a game within a game. Trying to see just how fast I can make a party kill enemies and keep everyone alive while managing my own HP/MP resources is a serious challenge - that's more than enough to keep my interest.

    (2) You want to know what's soul-sucking? Getting into a merit party and not being able to make it to chain #5 because the DRK that invited you was level 71 and can't hit the broad side of a barn.

    (3) I've been playing this game since beta. I remember what merit parties were like right after merits were introduced. I remember when KRT Fistburns were all the rage. I remember when Arrowburns were all the rage. I remember when Manaburns were all the range. How are any of those examples any less restrictive than what we see today? At least now, your average DD has a fighting chance to score a place in a merit party.

    I don't have a problem with people who want to play the game a different way; I'm simply taking issue with the people who say that melee RDM can perform as well as backline caster RDM in most XP/merit situations. I know from frequent personal experience that this is simply not true. Yes, there are times when Melee RDM is acceptable, or even recommended. No, those situations aren't terribly common. I'm not advocating that anyone shouldn't at least consider the possibility of doing some melee - of course you should. But coming with the freedom to choose should also be the responsibility to choose wisely for the task at hand.


    Icemage

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  • Vyuru
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    It's getting bad enough that I'm considering picking up BRD again before taking my PLD70 to PLD75. x_x; May be faster to level BRD to 75 than getting enough limit points on RDM to fully merit it. (The trouble with that idea is that I'd feel bad not putting merits on BRD first if I put up invite flag on BRD... )
    My advice is to not do that if you dislike the job so much. You'll have a high chance of getting burned out quickly on the job, and then dealing with the idiots is always annoying.

    In addition to that, it has been my experience that the people who invite you are *not* people you would like to be around. I have been invited to some of the more, I would say elitist parties, both as Drg and Rdm, and while yes, exp/hr tended to be higher, I highly detested my other party members.

    I've only been in one non LS party where not only was the exp/hr phenomenal, but I had a decent amount of respect and liked the other party members. However that really was the exception to the rule.

    Campaign may be slower than a normal exp party, but I'd rather enjoy myself and get slower exp than be raking in huge amounts of exp and hating every minute of it.

    Another thing to add to the Campaign fights is that if you can get a small party going for them, then you can fight the mobs around some of the areas inbetween Campaign fights for pretty decent exp. Lately I've been just sticking in Pashhow Marshlands and I'll solo the Quadav inbetween Campaign fights, they're not THAT bad for a drg/mage to solo, and they con DC or so to me, so it's decent exp while waiting for the next fight to start.

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  • Akashimo
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Level brd for that and we'll be having char broiled Itazura with a side of ballad potatos.

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Akashimo View Post
    That view is what made the game so burn orientated. The end does not justify the means! You spend majority of your game life in exp/meripos, that part should be 1) fun and 2) not soul sucking with endgame elistism on high chaining exp/hr.
    Actually, since he's able to maintain 20k+ exp/hour, Icemage definitely won't be spending the majority of his game time in merit parties.

    * * *

    Don't see anything inherently wrong with wanting good exp/hour. It's not that easy of a task; takes good players, working smoothly together, correct merits, open camp, and optimal setups. A challenging goal with a clear payout--fighting smartly is not dumbing down the game.

    Of course, nothing is terribly wrong with a party that's sub-optimal yet functional, either. Just when the lolPUP trend started (before the first wave of additional attachments), I was in a few lower level party with them on different jobs, and parsed these "non-optimal" parties. Those lolPUPs tend to be the best DDs in party, once the Automaton damage is accounted for.

    Something I'd never would have known if I had bolted from party upon seeing lolPUP. Same goes for seeing a very well geared BLM able to keep up damage with decent DDs in Lv.72-75 party that's flowing badly--lot's of odd, short down times due to prey competition, bad pulling, etc. for the BLM to recharge MP. >_>b

    I'd like to have more chain#100+ parties, as well as those odd SC+MB Troll parties. Either would be much faster than those Campaign Battles I'm forced to do because I can't get invites when I have time for merit parties. Heck, even as melee'ing RDM in so-so parties with my unimpressive melee gear, I'd do better.

    It's getting bad enough that I'm considering picking up BRD again before taking my PLD70 to PLD75. x_x; May be faster to level BRD to 75 than getting enough limit points on RDM to fully merit it. (The trouble with that idea is that I'd feel bad not putting merits on BRD first if I put up invite flag on BRD... )

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  • Akashimo
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Nuriko View Post
    All right, I'll just go level NIN to 37 and go out there as WHM/NIN! Oh, and maybe I'll get around to killing that WSNM for the club WS too ... and get O-Hat ... and Reverend Mail ... and probably a fair bit of +acc gear...
    Its quite fun to get the gear and then actually use it ;3
    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    Doesn't mean there are that many of BRDs available, seeking parties. RDM, on the other hand, do seem quite plentiful.
    Exactly. If anything, only time you're guarenteed a brd is if they're your friend or ls mate that needs recap/merits. Which is why its pointless to actually expect one. Though there was this one day where 5 75brds were lfp all at once for a few hours......
    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    It's too bad; I'd gladly take invites from your BST or SCH, knowing how much you would have made to gear them well. *shrug* I'm not the type to demand a BRD or COR or otherwise no-way-no-how. At least, not at the moment--who knows how endgame will corrupt me?!
    Lawl. Hope you stay that way in the end too. Cause its nausiating to see nothing but talk of wanting a brd or no merits at all in my ls. Hesh if i leveled it, it'll be worse than main healing on rdm on occassion or being on whm in limbus when its not needed, yet the officer for limbus makes me go whm.
    Originally posted by Icemage View Post
    Demand? No. There will always be people willing to settle for second best. But when we are talking about making the most of your limited play time, it's not as hard as you make it out to be.

    Just ask your friend the BLM how often he gets invites to merit parties. Or White Mage. Or the Puppetmaster. Or Dragoon. Or Beastmaster. Nothing has changed, really - the balance of power changes between the jobs, but there's always a few left behind.
    Most of the time, I'd try to make parties for the less invited jobs, problem is, people just be arses before we even get started. Like they go, "blm gimp," or, "wtf, lolpup." Drg and bst are popular amoung to get for dds, yet the main stream meriters will always pick out war over them.

    Originally posted by Icemage View Post
    When I'm out there trying to earn merit points, that's what I focus on - getting as many points in as little time as possible, so that I can spend the rest of my time doing other, more interesting things (Limbus, Dynamis, Assault, sea, sky, Salvage, Einherjar, BCNM, etc.). It is a means to an end; I'm not there to hold someone's hand and try to make them feel better about how S-E screwed their job of choice.
    That view is what made the game so burn orientated. The end does not justify the means! You spend majority of your game life in exp/meripos, that part should be 1) fun and 2) not soul sucking with endgame elistism on high chaining exp/hr. If anything, this game needs to be rolled back to CoP days before ToAu to really know what is gained and what is lost amoung all players. The difference in support jobs skill and additudes is one of them. Another is willingness to settle for anything outside of the meripo hotspot without it completely destroying the party.

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  • Icemage
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    I rarely see more than one BRD seeking for party, if that many. Haven't seen a COR75 seeking in over a month. You're assuming every party should have 2/6 slots to be filled with BRD and/or COR, that means 1/3 of the merit seeking population should have at least one of those jobs leveled.

    That's an incredible assumption.
    You would be surprised at how much of the end-game 75 population has one of those three jobs levelled.

    I'd say close to 3/4 of my LS has at least one of the three jobs levelled to 75, if not multiple. Whether I can persuade any one of them to actually play them is a separate issue, but the potential is always there.

    No argument about capability of that set up, but you're basically demanding everyone who don't have one of those jobs to level one--preferably BRD or COR.

    The neophytes who picked the "wrong" job to 75 first, will simply have to level a second job in this scheme before he's allowed into any merit party? @_@
    Demand? No. There will always be people willing to settle for second best. But when we are talking about making the most of your limited play time, it's not as hard as you make it out to be.

    Just ask your friend the BLM how often he gets invites to merit parties. Or White Mage. Or the Puppetmaster. Or Dragoon. Or Beastmaster. Nothing has changed, really - the balance of power changes between the jobs, but there's always a few left behind.

    When I'm out there trying to earn merit points, that's what I focus on - getting as many points in as little time as possible, so that I can spend the rest of my time doing other, more interesting things (Limbus, Dynamis, Assault, sea, sky, Salvage, Einherjar, BCNM, etc.). It is a means to an end; I'm not there to hold someone's hand and try to make them feel better about how S-E screwed their job of choice.

    I'll make the occasional exception for an LS member who is trying to push a job to 75, in the interests of improving the efficiency of the LS as a whole by providing more flexibility, but that's about as far as I'm willing to take it. Other than that... never. I can't find enough free time to do all the stuff I want to do as it is, and thus spending twice as much time in merit parties than necessary is a non-starter as far as I'm concerned.


    Icemage

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
    Not really, since late CoP and early ToA its been rather common for people to level BRD and RDM with ulterior motives that have nothing to do with levelling it as a serious main jobs.
    Doesn't mean there are that many of BRDs available, seeking parties. RDM, on the other hand, do seem quite plentiful.

    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
    People balk at COR because its support class with high expenses. You've denied that a couple times, but again, its the expense that drives people away.
    I don't recall "denying" that... You sure I didn't write something to the effect of "there are other factors as well"?

    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
    How do you think melees feel, were it not for good LSes and good friends, my RNG wouldn't have but a handful of merits to its name. Thankfully, I have a COR, which is actually my true main on Kitten, so its not an issue.
    Not sure what you mean here; it seemed like you were advocating DD x4 + BRD (or COR) + RDM set up as the right or normal way, while Icemage was DDx3 + BRDx2 (or BRD+COR) + RDM. In both of which, DD's are not shafted.

    My view is "Both of those are nice. I also take invites from WHMs, THFs and PUPs, too, even if they are not on those lists." Not picky about party composition, as long as it's functional enough to chain reasonably. Heck, you're the one who really made the point to me and others about being nicer to the other, less than exp optimal jobs.

    Are you practicing what you've preached as well?

    Do you take invites on COR from those "not so desirable in exp party" jobs?

    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
    Let's just say I learned the second time around. Levelling BRD was, in my opinion, a mistake. I did it because my LS didn't have a BRD in thier lineup and I've regretted it ever since, but now at least when my BST and SCH need merits, I have a tool to get them merits with.
    It's too bad; I'd gladly take invites from your BST or SCH, knowing how much you would have made to gear them well. *shrug* I'm not the type to demand a BRD or COR or otherwise no-way-no-how. At least, not at the moment--who knows how endgame will corrupt me?!

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  • Omgwtfbbqkitten
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    I rarely see more than one BRD seeking for party, if that many. Haven't seen a COR75 seeking in over a month. You're assuming every party should have 2/6 slots to be filled with BRD and/or COR, that means 1/3 of the merit seeking population should have at least one of those jobs leveled.

    That's an incredible assumption.
    Not really, since late CoP and early ToA its been rather common for people to level BRD and RDM with ulterior motives that have nothing to do with levelling it as a serious main jobs. People balk at COR because its support class with high expenses. You've denied that a couple times, but again, its the expense that drives people away.

    No argument about capability of that set up, but you're basically demanding everyone who don't have one of those jobs to level one--preferably BRD or COR.
    Its a quicker trip to 75 than you think, sadly, most BRDs aren't terribly dilligent about thier gear because PTs let them be gimp. I spent 7 months on COR and BRD respectively, took my time on both, didn't level til I felt I had what I needed to continue levelling. Bascially, I treated them just like any melee job I had, if only other people would treat COR and BRD with that level of respect, though granted I'm slow about gilmaking back in my BRD days.

    The neophytes who picked the "wrong" job to 75 first, will simply have to level a second job in this scheme before he's allowed into any merit party? @_@
    How do you think melees feel, were it not for good LSes and good friends, my RNG wouldn't have but a handful of merits to its name. Thankfully, I have a COR, which is actually my true main on Kitten, so its not an issue.

    Let's just say I learned the second time around. Levelling BRD was, in my opinion, a mistake. I did it because my LS didn't have a BRD in thier lineup and I've regretted it ever since, but now at least when my BST and SCH need merits, I have a tool to get them merits with. Its a tool I'll be keen on shoving into a dark corner once I get other merits capped out and go back to endgame. COR gave me everything I ever wanted from a job and the more subs I finish, the more love I have for it.
    Last edited by Omgwtfbbqkitten; 02-04-2008, 10:24 PM.

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  • Nuriko
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Akashimo View Post
    My philosphy, take second best cause long run it'll be the best.
    Which is why I'd go for rdm(&whm) DDing for 2008!
    All right, I'll just go level NIN to 37 and go out there as WHM/NIN! Oh, and maybe I'll get around to killing that WSNM for the club WS too ... and get O-Hat ... and Reverend Mail ... and probably a fair bit of +acc gear...

    Leave a comment:


  • Akashimo
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    will simply have to level a second job in this scheme before he's allowed any merit pt>? @_@
    And having to do that screws the people over!
    <_< Meriting lowest priority. Cap exp/events yes preaze! >_>
    Btw, that mind set for people to have a 'merit job' is quite common in hnmls 1337 mind sets on seraph these days >_>;

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Icemage View Post
    At 72+, you're in merit range, and there is very little reason to put up with sub-optimal party setups at this point. Many, many, many players at 75 have multiple jobs. It is not being unrealistic to expect to find a 2 bards and a red mage, or a bard/corsair/red mage at 75 these days, particularly if you do it a lot and have a reputation for being good at it.
    I rarely see more than one BRD seeking for party, if that many. Haven't seen a COR75 seeking in over a month. You're assuming every party should have 2/6 slots to be filled with BRD and/or COR, that means 1/3 of the merit seeking population should have at least one of those jobs leveled.

    That's an incredible assumption.

    Originally posted by Icemage View Post
    Sure, you "can" go out and perform decently in a number of camps as RDM/BRD/WHM/DDx3, but it's never going to match the damage and power output of RDM/BRD/BRD/3xDD or RDM/BRD/COR/3xDD, and that's the honest truth.

    I just see no reason, when there are so many other things one can be doing with one's time in this game at level 75, when anyone should be settling for second best.
    No argument about capability of that set up, but you're basically demanding everyone who don't have one of those jobs to level one--preferably BRD or COR.

    The neophytes who picked the "wrong" job to 75 first, will simply have to level a second job in this scheme before he's allowed into any merit party? @_@
    Last edited by ItazuraNhomango; 02-04-2008, 09:44 PM.

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  • Akashimo
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Anyone who's the 'high demand' jobs I've chated with, would rather delevel it to 4 than most merit parties. Red Mage, fun to get to 75, yes. Merit, no. Hearing talk about exp/hr, soul sucking. Hearing talk about lolthf, soul sucking. Seeing party setups 4xDD brd, rdm results in me head banging the desk.

    Generally, the best isn't always the best for all. 1 merit party I've had actually did a high chain passed 100. 1. Just 1. Using the method of best as described. What I believe everyone fails to realise, you can't always make the best, nor should you focus on it when making parties.

    Only way its gonna be the best is if you enjoy it.

    Not the exp/hr, nor the 'zomg bard!' If you enjoy it and the party chat is what you're eyes are on and not as much on your exp/limit point bars then that is the party which gives the best exp. For those are ones you'd always want.

    My philosphy, take second best cause long run it'll be the best.
    Which is why I'd go for rdm(&whm) DDing for 2008!

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  • Icemage
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    At lower levels (sub-72), melee RDM could be acceptable based on circumstances. After all, you're not always guaranteed to have the "perfect" mix of jobs, and being flexible is always good.

    At 72+, you're in merit range, and there is very little reason to put up with sub-optimal party setups at this point. Many, many, many players at 75 have multiple jobs. It is not being unrealistic to expect to find a 2 bards and a red mage, or a bard/corsair/red mage at 75 these days, particularly if you do it a lot and have a reputation for being good at it.

    If you're in an HNMLS, it's even easier, because all of the above are in high demand.

    Sure, you "can" go out and perform decently in a number of camps as RDM/BRD/WHM/DDx3, but it's never going to match the damage and power output of RDM/BRD/BRD/3xDD or RDM/BRD/COR/3xDD, and that's the honest truth.

    I just see no reason, when there are so many other things one can be doing with one's time in this game at level 75, when anyone should be settling for second best.


    Icemage

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  • Omgwtfbbqkitten
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    think stated enough times that back line is my preference, for efficiency reason. However, didn't you once wrote everyone should be allowed into to level, especially those people we need at endgame but not so hot for exp parties?

    I agreed with you; and I take invites from BLMs and WHMs alike. Sometimes, that leads to non-optimal set ups. Once in a blue moon, it means I'd do more for party if I melee.
    I believe I was talking about LS parties at merit level, more specfically endgame linkshell merit PTs. Its a morale thing - those PLDs go out and die/lose EXP for your LS's agendas and often expect nothing in return for it. You're a poor leader or officer if you don't support your most vital members.

    Melees will come and go, hell, some of them think they're hot shit and will leave you regardless, but the reason for high BLM and WHM turnover in endgame isn't ego, but a lack of appreciation, helping your WHMs and BLMs merits is one way of acknowledging thier effort. They really get so little out of sky and HNMs.

    Mage players will stick with your LS if you support them. I can't count the manaburns I did for my BLMs, but they stayed because they knew it would be a fixture for weeks and months to come. If I died, I got up and started pulling for them all over again while weakened.

    I was a real stickler about R Pump/O Hat runs too, and stuff similar. I didn't care if I had to issue points, I'd do whatever it took to make everyone stay and do those evens.


    You really should re-read the posts.
    Waste of time, I've read them, point is even on colibri, you're better off putting the sword away. You PT would have to be doing pretty poorly for your damage to even make a slight difference.

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
    We could drop that WHM, get a 4th DD and put you on the backline, which almost always happens anyway, and chains would be higher. But then, this is the situation you're dodging, isn't it?
    WHM was the party leader. Dodging? No.

    Non-optimal parties happens. I'm just not elite enough to say "no", that's all.

    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
    You're trying to make this about making meritting fun for your job, but everyone else just wants it done quickly.
    I think stated enough times that back line is my preference, for efficiency reason. However, didn't you once wrote everyone should be allowed into to level, especially those people we need at endgame but not so hot for exp parties?

    I agreed with you; and I take invites from BLMs and WHMs alike. Sometimes, that leads to non-optimal set ups. Once in a blue moon, it means I'd do more for party if I melee.

    While it was an interesting one time experience, I don't enjoy packing full to 57/60 inventory space and still feel like I'm missing melee pieces. Not at all. Don't know about other folks, but Melee RDM is not what I prefer in merit parties.


    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
    Additionally, this dicussions has been Colibri this and Colibri that. Do you realize there are more merit mobs out there than this one?
    You really should re-read the posts.

    Most of us saying melee'ing can and should be done also agree it's not for most situation and places. And, it's often (if not always) a sign of not-a-top chaining party.

    The reason the discussion is mostly on Great Colibri is because we know it's not too useful elsewhere for the most part, so no point is discussing them. Duh.

    Why are you ranting at people who basically advocate no melee'ing in most places and most parties anyway? I'd thought you would agree with us.

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