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  • Murphie
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Well, I for one am just glad to finally get some answers. Thanks, Judoh!

    Leave a comment:


  • Yellow Mage
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    First of all, thank you for contribution three five years after the fact; it is very much appreciated.

    Secondly, your post isn't a very convincing argument in favor of front line Red Mage. If anything, I would dare to say that you're a prime example of what everybody sees when they look at the rest of us. Wild claims about parsing? Admitting to not caring about Haste because the "whm did great," and furthermore selfishly expecting that the group make contributions to support your otherwise relatively kitsch pursuit?

    Sheesh. With people like you, it's no wonder we've got such a bad name.

    Leave a comment:


  • Judoh
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Hey guys,

    Well I guess I wanted to put my 2 cents in. I quit June of 2006 and had blm rdm and blu at 75 in Midgard, I was actually first blu in my server in a little less than 2 hours as the expansion went live.
    Well I can easily solo imps to chain 5 at times as blu and rdm (and chain 5 slimes sometimes on blm lol).
    My setup was rdm/nin using joy/justice. What made the difference was Death Blossom. I had dusk gloves/feet, w turban, SH+1 or AJ, Nashira serawheels, Forager's mantle, swift belt, Pcc, suppa/brutal, jaeger/sniper or rajas, with full sword merits as my TP set
    And
    For my WS set The only things I would change (depending on the mob's lvl) was O hat, swift belt to potent belt, Pcc to chiv chain, Nashira to prince's Slops, d hands to alk bracelets, d feet to orge+1, and sometimes jaeger to aqua. I was able to do exp pts and always pulled around 500-800 on high lvl mamool ja's, 500-900 on colibri, 600-950 on imps and hawkers?(I forget their name at the end), 650-900 on the toads, and 650-1200ish on pugs with Death Blossoms and pulling crazy DoT with 2-5 attacks+enspells. I would have an enhancing set to recast fast and around 310 enhance to do 20-24 additional dmg each swing.

    I did not run a parse as I was only 18 back then and didn't have resources or knew much about this but our group was composed of a whm/smn, brd/nin, blue/thf, nin/war, and myself elf rdm/nin. I can tell you I was stealing aggro all the time without casting much other than dia 3. I didn't worry much about recasting haste (whm did great), mana was great, af2 hat and refresh after kill helped a lot, but yes a lot of inventory space with all the virtue stones and what not but I can honestly tell you I could've outparsed the average DD back then.

    So it is possible but it takes a lot of time money and support from the group as a whole. We did like almost 3 merits to the hour.
    Last edited by Judoh; 10-11-2011, 06:06 PM.

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  • Icemage
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    What was the exp/hour?
    I don't have an exact amount, but it was just a shade over 21K per hour. I made a little over 4 and a half merits in a little over 2 hours.

    And, why were you casting Blizzard III at a Greater Colibri? ._.
    Convert cycle was coming up and I had spare MP (notice my MP is near zero in the screenshot - that was in preparation for Convert as I had a spare moment or two to take the screenshot).

    I should note that casting Haste on four melees + Dia II on each enemy produced vastly more net damage than anything I could have done just swinging a Joyeuse. I added the Bard to my Haste cycle since he didn't have access to Utsusemi: Ni yet at level 73.

    And yes, I still had MP left at the end of my Convert cycle more often than not.


    Icemage
    Last edited by Icemage; 02-11-2008, 11:51 PM.

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    What was the exp/hour?

    And, why were you casting Blizzard III at a Greater Colibri? ._.

    Leave a comment:


  • Icemage
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    We talked a bit about sub-optimal parties and settling for what you can get earlier, and we also talked about Colibri camps.

    I took a merit party to the lower Colibri camp in Bhaflau Thickets earlier this evening.

    PT setup was
    BRD73/NIN36
    RNG73/NIN36

    WAR75/NIN37
    WAR75/NIN37
    DRK75/NIN37
    RDM75/WHM37 (me)

    Did I need to melee? Nope.

    NOTE: I joined this party at the request of an LS member - not because I "needed" to settle for second best; turned out OK anyway, as you can see.




    Icemage
    Last edited by Icemage; 02-11-2008, 11:04 PM.

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  • Electricity Gone Human
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Yellow Mage View Post
    Does anybody else find it annoying that two other Mages can Melee better than us? One of them can heal better than us, to boot (though, to be fair, it is supposed to be their specialty).
    Looks like I'm going to want an Enhancing Sword, huh? Although I'm kinda skeptical on the DPS of that one compared to the Joyeuse, where the 45% proc makes all the difference anyway.

    As for Soloing...I tried to duo the Savage Blade NM with a 2-boxed DRG. We would've had it if he knew that dismissing the wyvern makes it stop attacking, when I was Sleeping the NM. :\
    Last edited by Electricity Gone Human; 02-10-2008, 05:55 PM.

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  • Akashimo
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Now if only rdm's could solo AV, and maybe in under an hour.... the job would be fixed.

    Leave a comment:


  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by DR2D2 View Post
    I have yet to figure out SE's rational for make a support class 1 of the few jobs which can be soloed without too much problems.
    It's my understanding that originally, RDM was basically useless.

    Through major changes (adding Convert, Refresh, etc.), Red Mage became quite useful to party and large group activities. Those changes also added endurance and safety, enabling RDM to solo many things.

    So, the soloing capability is a side effect of making RDM more relevant to the player population--it was probably not S-E's goal to make a "solo capable support role job". Things just turned out that way.

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  • DR2D2
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    It seems to me after reading a majority of the posts(skimmed through about 5 of the pages) that even though rdm is a good soloest, it is a bad DD. I have yet to figure out SE's rational for make a support class 1 of the few jobs which can be soloed without too much problems.

    As a side note my lvl 31 rdm gives about +25 hp and +50 mp as a sub for lvl 50 blu over my lvl 21 thf as a sub for blu(not very great stat boosts). I'm not sure of att, evas, and vit., but I would assume thf would give a bigger boost to each of these stats as well(except maybe vit.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Akashimo
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Yellow Mage View Post
    . . .



    Yellow Mage readies Non-Sequitur.

    Does anybody else find it annoying that two other Mages can Melee better than us? One of them can heal better than us, to boot (though, to be fair, it is supposed to be their specialty).
    White Mage DD :D
    /gears up and points at whm75 vs maat vid in other thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yellow Mage
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
    Supplemental damage doesn't matter that much when the whole point of PTs that level is to do as much damage as possible in a short amount of time.
    . . .



    Yellow Mage readies Non-Sequitur.

    Does anybody else find it annoying that two other Mages can Melee better than us? One of them can heal better than us, to boot (though, to be fair, it is supposed to be their specialty).

    Leave a comment:


  • arkaine23
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Icemage View Post
    True, though you'll gain TP faster with a single-wielded Joyeuse than Blau Dolch/Joyeuse, due to Dual Wield's effect on TP gain.

    Dual Wielded Blau/Joy has a base TP gain of 4.8 TP per hit with Suppanomimi.

    Single wielded Joyeuse has a base TP gain of 6.0 TP per hit.


    Icemage
    The TP gain difference is about 5% in favor of single-wielded Joyeuse even for /WAR where DA is helping Joyeuse a little. Its like 1-2 seconds faster at reaching 100 TP. At least when I ran a scenario with my own gear.

    Math Warning

    I'll grant TP rates of 6.4 and 5.1 (store TP +7, probably same for Store TP +5 but I didn't check). A joyeuse /WAR will get 9.9 TP in an average round (I include DA's watered down effect for attack rate). A BD/Joy /NIN will get 12.7 TP in an average round. Joyeuse will get 100 TP in 11 rounds (10 rounds a lot of the time bc its very close but has to be rounded down), BD/Joy will do it in 8 rounds. That's 2240 or 2464 total delay for Joy (depending on getting better than the average attack rate of 1.55/round) and 2576 total delay for BD/Joy.

    TP'ing from full WS TP return to 100, BD/Joy will do it in 8 rounds still, but frequently in 7 because its very close, rounded down. Joy alone will do it in 10 rounds. Looking only at WS TP return -> 100 TP because after the first WS that's what you'll be dealing with. Add in Brutal because it rounds things out nicely. BD/Joy gets 13TP/round, 90 TP every 7 rounds then. Joy gets 10TP/round, 91 TP every 10 rounds. Add one round to both to simulate non-perfect (and still a little higher than real world merit) accuracy. 8 rounds vs 11 rounds. The difference is 2464 delay (Joy) vs 2576 delay (BD/Joy). About 2 seconds difference. After I apply the amount of haste I use to both setups (27% total gear and spell) the difference is more like 1 second. Cast Stoneskin or Blink just once for /WAR compared to Ni for /NIN and I've recovered that delay and then some.

    This is the best I can do to simulate mathematically the TP gain difference. Its roughly 5% in favor of Joyeuse under these conditions, not 25% as had been suggested. BD/Joy has connected 18/20.56 hits vs Joy's 15/17.27 in this timespan to reach 100% TP starting from 9 for non-DA Vorpal or 10 from non-DA /NIN Evsiceration. Regarding other subjobs.... /WAR > /NIN for damage not because of the TP gain of Joyeuse though. Its because of Berserk. However, in merits there are no tanks. Stoneskin/Blink are slow casting, cost mp, and are not as good as /NIN shadows. DDing RDM will pull hate enough that taking hits through their standard defenses and maintaining those defenses become a liability.
    Last edited by arkaine23; 02-06-2008, 05:02 AM.

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Vyuru View Post
    My advice is to not do that if you dislike the job so much. You'll have a high chance of getting burned out quickly on the job, and then dealing with the idiots is always annoying.
    Actually, I liked playing BRD. It's just that since my PLD is Lv.70, and BLM is Lv.56, I probably should take those to Lv.75 first. >_>;

    The current goal, however, is to finish group 1 and 2 merits for my RDM.

    Originally posted by Akashimo View Post
    I'd personally wouldn't even try to keep up backline duties completely as a frontliner, its just not worth the effort.
    Well, given that one Haste on a good DD will probably produce more additional damage output than my RDM's sword, that's why I say front line melee for RDM is not worth the effort if there's enough back line duty for my RDM.

    The balance may be different for RDMs with better melee gears and merits, but the truth is that better efficiency is good for everyone in party (when obtainable), and back line is where to find that efficiency.
    Last edited by ItazuraNhomango; 02-05-2008, 02:49 PM.

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  • Akashimo
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Icemage View Post
    (1) Merit parties are fun for me. I adore playing RDM in merit parties. I'm never lacking for things to do, there's always a new threat to deal with, and hey, it gives me lots of points - bonus! For me, it's a game within a game. Trying to see just how fast I can make a party kill enemies and keep everyone alive while managing my own HP/MP resources is a serious challenge - that's more than enough to keep my interest.

    (2) You want to know what's soul-sucking? Getting into a merit party and not being able to make it to chain #5 because the DRK that invited you was level 71 and can't hit the broad side of a barn.

    (3) I've been playing this game since beta. I remember what merit parties were like right after merits were introduced. I remember when KRT Fistburns were all the rage. I remember when Arrowburns were all the rage. I remember when Manaburns were all the range. How are any of those examples any less restrictive than what we see today? At least now, your average DD has a fighting chance to score a place in a merit party.

    I don't have a problem with people who want to play the game a different way; I'm simply taking issue with the people who say that melee RDM can perform as well as backline caster RDM in most XP/merit situations. I know from frequent personal experience that this is simply not true. Yes, there are times when Melee RDM is acceptable, or even recommended. No, those situations aren't terribly common. I'm not advocating that anyone shouldn't at least consider the possibility of doing some melee - of course you should. But coming with the freedom to choose should also be the responsibility to choose wisely for the task at hand.


    Icemage
    1)Keeping hp/mp up is fun, I'll give ya that. But its more of a game for me when i can enfeeble/nuke more freely too without the mob dieing to quickly when playing backliner.

    2) O_o;;;;;; Wow, just wow, yeah, that takes the cake.

    3)Ok, point taken. v.v;

    I'd personally wouldn't even try to keep up backline duties completely as a frontliner, its just not worth the effort. At best I can keep up with refresh and haste on the main hate holder between pulls/after WSing. Everything else would be mb/emergancy heals/enspells to at least keep tp gain consistant where it would allow me to more freely stay on front lines. Then again, the thought will never allow me if its the 4/2, maybe 3/3, but never a 4/2. With the other of the 2 is a bard, cor or smn.

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