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  • BurningPanther
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Callisto View Post
    To the point of the thread, if you want to melee, don't believe that you can't. But DO believe that you are going to need not only respectable casting gear, but also good melee gear in order to A) actually get your RDM duties done and B) actually hit the mobs for damage. If you're willing to put the time and effort into getting the gear/merits needed, pop some sushi and enjoy yourself.
    I think the most important factor, oft overlooked, is practice. Practice, practice, PRACTICE. No RDM is successful at front line battle-casting right off the start. It takes repetition and refinement, to put the gear you've obtained to good use.

    So often when you hear stories of RDM's failings at battle-casting, it's from someone bitter at a RDM who was inexperienced at it, and unsurprisingly fumbled. Their disapproval grew, cancerously, among the community, until it was taken for granted that RDM is incapable of simultaneous combat and casting. However, attempts and repetition are the only way one learns to improve, and it's gotta happen sometime.

    So, practice. Lots of it.
    Originally posted by Celeal View Post
    From a DD stand point of view, RDM's melee dmg output only fits in support damage.
    This reminds me of something I've been wondering. Exactly how does one tier damage?

    When referring to RDM damage dealing, we are often berated, or dismissed, as even our best output "pales to a dedicated DD." But compared to whom?

    My average damage obviously pales before WAR, MNK, DRK, DRG has been known to keep up with Theives and PLDs, barring Weapon Skill numbers.

    So what are we comparing it to? If we're constantly gonna be compared to the likes of the former four, then we should just hang up the chapeaus and rapiers.
    Last edited by BurningPanther; 01-14-2008, 04:49 PM.

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  • Raydeus
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Reposting mode: θ‘ŒγγΎγ™!

    -Up to lvl 40 a RDM can melee and deal decent dmg given they have enough inventory space for equip macros so they actually get everything done. And by everything I mean enfeebling without resists and dealing enough damage to make worth the TP you are feeding to the mob.

    -After lvl 40 RDM has no place meleeing in a party, with Refresh at 41 (and Haste at 48)RDM role changes completely to support, which consumes too much MP to make using time to melee instead of resting MP simply not worth it.

    -And then there's the thing that after lvl 50 no matter how well equiped you are the B weapon skill rating and the lack of dd weapons will start showing you how gimped we are in the damage department.

    -By lvl65 you wont hit a thing unless you spend a lot of gil and inventory space, and all for very laughable damage.

    Now, we do become strong soloers (albeit very slow) after level 60 and the pimp hat, but that is a completely different story and has nothing to do with xp parties.

    And that's what I think about this for the 100th time.


    Edit > And yes, depending on what SE does to make RDMs go to the frontlines (as they said they we considering to do at the event) like lolSpellblade and stuff this notion could change considerably.

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  • Yellow Mage
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Akashimo View Post
    Fast cast would act as a melee haste while this trait is active.
    This sounds like an intriguing idea: convert Fast Cast to Haste? This could definately give Red Mages more incentive to diversify and Melee occasionally.

    Also, Enspell II: imbue the weapon so it gives a boost to spells of a corresponding element: the "Sword Antenna" logic.
    Last edited by Yellow Mage; 01-14-2008, 04:44 PM.

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  • Celeal
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    I believe in actual prove...

    If I am the party leader and the RDM in my party request for melee, I will let him/her to try in a few battles to prove himself/herself....

    My personal expectation from RDM in a party is very low anyway ( /off-topic )

    IMHO, if the party conditions allows the RDM to melee, the chances are, it does not make much difference. (Because the party has enough damage output and HP/MP recovery).

    From a DD stand point of view, RDM's melee dmg output only fits in support damage.

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  • Akashimo
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Honestly. I love how one sided people are on against DDing RDMs. True that at times it isn't good, but at the same time, while it is good to do so, you're DDs that were doing so well on keeping hate control from spike dmg suddenly start to suck, dunes style. >_> Least in my parties as rdm and whm dding. They didn't say anything out loud, they just started sucking mp, then started being semi golden again when I'm on the back lines.

    Personally. I'd really want to see how SE is playing the RDM to do damage boost. Possibilty a spell to instant cast if you're gaining tp through auto attack, but penality of a 3x longer recast timer. Though that'll still be over powered, but it would put more options as to letting a rdm melee with instant cast only while they're auto attacking. Or a way to tweak this broken chainspell in attack mode would to make the casting timer go up a certain number of percent with each landing hit. Fast cast would act as a melee haste while this trait is active.

    Serious note, dual weild daggers on rdm is like the dmg my thief in haste/acc food build. Only difference is an additional 16-18 points additional damage from enspells. Swords, I can't get an accurate view to compare by eye balling it due primarily to, lack of Savage Blade and no ex ws when i /nin. Dagger so far for rdm/nin is better than sword. Atk food + acc gear for rdm/war or rdm/drk DDing sword and daggers are about equal.

    Orz, I gotta get a parser for this stuff ~_~; Come on SE make us on <_<;

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  • Yellow Mage
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    advocating the right approach for the majority of RDMs is the correct thing to do.
    This is subjective.

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  • Renadi
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    Before meriting and enfeebling magic merits, however, spell accuracy from the elemental staves is darn important. That's a lot of levels we're talking about here where casting without staves is not the thing to do.
    Just to add in another point, there are some players (like myself) that enjoy experimenting with unusual party set ups and unusual camps.

    It's not impossible for a player to be able to join one of these groups (though most often, of course, as a static). In the right set up a RDM will certainly be able to pull off meleeing.

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Callisto View Post
    And @ Itaz, at higher levels, Elemental Staves are only going to affect your spell accuracy, not really your potency(for debuffs). While meleeing I can still easily hit 100+ INT/MND(especially now thanks to Tuna Sushi), and I really never see problems landing spells on mobs that I would try meleeing. I know we've gone back and forth over this with the last thread on this, but really if you're properly geared at merit level and you can't land your spells without staves you're missing something, at which point yes, you probably shouldn't melee.
    Merit level, yes, I can see several targeted monsters where RDM melee'ing can be done. Not Imps, obviously, but Colibri, maybe. Unfortunately, I tend to get DDs who take big chunks of damage at random times when in Greater Colibri camp, so I rather rest for MP than swing a sword, in case I need to toss out Cure IV's. (You'd think a WAR/NIN can provoke a Greater Colibri to help a fellow DD from dying, but apparently, they'd rather deplete my MP pool instead.)

    Before meriting and enfeebling magic merits, however, spell accuracy from the elemental staves is darn important. That's a lot of levels we're talking about here where casting without staves is not the thing to do.

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  • Callisto
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    I wouldn't say that you're a fail RDM if you can't melee and keep up all of your casting duties, it's just not for some people. I personally have no problem meleeing while keeping my orders up, really the only issue is that I spend so much time casting I'm not spending enough time swinging.

    My macros are all very specifically set up to enable me to easily cast all spells while meleeing, while still getting near max potency out of all of them. I carry roughly 58 pieces of RDM gear at all times so that I can pull off all facets of the job, even meleeing. Do I melee while I'm the main healer? Of course not. But sometimes, even in merits, you're just the Refresher, at times even not pulling, so what else are you going to do?

    And @ Itaz, at higher levels, Elemental Staves are only going to affect your spell accuracy, not really your potency(for debuffs). While meleeing I can still easily hit 100+ INT/MND(especially now thanks to Tuna Sushi), and I really never see problems landing spells on mobs that I would try meleeing. I know we've gone back and forth over this with the last thread on this, but really if you're properly geared at merit level and you can't land your spells without staves you're missing something, at which point yes, you probably shouldn't melee.

    To the point of the thread, if you want to melee, don't believe that you can't. But DO believe that you are going to need not only respectable casting gear, but also good melee gear in order to A) actually get your RDM duties done and B) actually hit the mobs for damage. If you're willing to put the time and effort into getting the gear/merits needed, pop some sushi and enjoy yourself.

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Electricity Gone Human View Post
    I'm only saying if it's set right to the point where you can melee, then go for it. No need to make an argument about it, really.
    Well, if a RDM is set up right, he'd have staves (and wands before Lv.51) for casting.

    For the melee RDM, even with swords on macro, inevitably he'd lose TP from weapon switch and at least occasionally melee'ing with wands and staves (unintentionally). So, we're talking about lower skill DD (B ranked sword), who spends much time casting, and often with the wrong weapon, and never has TP enough for a weapon skill. That means a low output DD, any way you slice it.

    It comes down to cost/benefit--is the cost of being in AoE range, the extra distraction and the time (from macro switches and time not used for MP rest) and the macro space worth the minuscule amount of damage a spell-busy RDM can contribute?

    Call it an argument if you want; advocating the right approach for the majority of RDMs is the correct thing to do. Plus, I suspect most RDMs who think they can do melee'ing and spell casting both correctly probably can't, judging from the complaints people have regarding RDMs in exp parties.

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  • Spinnthrift
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    ElectricityGone...

    I've had the pleasure of taking my Rdm out for a bit of a melee whirl, and while my dagger DoT was vastly higher than our inimitable Thf's dagger DoT... I can safely say - that my performance even with meritted Dagger, a full set of acc/attack gear - my damage wasn't enough to warrant my melee. And I'm a Thf at heart, with a mostly full collection of various knives I can play with.

    Rdm isn't a melee job in exp. Added to which - keeping hastes/enfeebles/healing/refresh/etc etc etc etc - isn't worth losing my focus on that, and to be honest, I don't see how any Rdm can do all of the above and melee - even as a subpar DD. You can call me a fail Rdm if you wish, but I have tried it on the last mob of a party, and even with it being a bat and me being a daggerboy didn't impress me enough to go yep, I should be melee'ing.

    Rdm isn't my main. Being a melee is. So - I'd say I'm fairly well qualified to say whether my melee was worth it. And the end result was: An astounding no. A very qualified no. As even with hitting for 30 a hit as fast as I was - a well geared DD should be miles ahead of me and all I was doing was feeding the mob TP.

    I've done it as the last mob in a party to see and wasn't impressed, and whenever I see Rdm's do it as a general style of exp, I cringe, then either replace them or disband.

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  • Electricity Gone Human
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    Well, a melee'ing RDM is definitely better than a RDM who does nothing at all, in the same way that dirty, foul smelling, polluted air is definitely better than not having any air.

    I keep hearing people who claim they can melee and mind the spells without dropping a thing.

    Try asking the rest of the players about the meleeing RDMs they typically see: are those the super-RDMs, or the useless RDMs who barely Refresh or enfeeble, never mind curing? (And, did they out damage the DRG's wyvern?)

    Just because something is possible, it hardly means it's possible for every RDM who want to be DD to be effective. Too many who tried turned into exp leeches, IMO.
    That foul air is just mistaken for getting Blinded. The icon does look like polluted air, after all.

    Advocating melee wasn't necessarily the point to my post. I was just saying what you would need in order to do it, not exactly say "Yes, your pick-up party won't mind if you do it." I don't know if you're just trying to misunderstand me, but I've noticed that some RDMs are anti-melee mainly because they can't seem to keep up in a normal exp party. Let's hope you're not one of them for the sake of taking up RDM as a main job, as I remember you saying that you've tried and failed.

    I was fairly able to keep up with my static party back in the day, from the feedback I've gotten. What I did was back when ToAU wasn't even out as well, and of course I wouldn't recommend it, unless you've gotten some practice elsewhere, for example, soloing.

    Staves--you cast offensive spells with them Lv.51+, not swords. Also, most often used/important enfeebs used in exp parties are MND based (i.e. Dia, Slow, and Silence). The important INT based ones (Sleep, Bind, Gravity) are done with elemental staves as well.

    Before Lv.51, INT/MND wands for casting--still not swords.
    Nobody DD's with Wands, though, so if you're going to try and melee, that B-Rank Sword shouldn't be sitting there in your inventory.

    And let's not forget about Blind if Flash/Kurayami resists. And if I remember correctly, INT+10 = 5 Magic Attack/Accuracy, so swapping in INT Gear should improve the spell.

    Oh, that reminds me to add to the original post: don't skimp out on Gobbiebag quests.

    I'm only saying if it's set right to the point where you can melee, then go for it. No need to make an argument about it, really.

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by Electricity Gone Human View Post
    It could be done, but it would be sub-par when compared to a dedicated Damage Dealer, but here's what I've said throughout my RDM-dom: "it's better than nothing at all."
    Well, a melee'ing RDM is definitely better than a RDM who does nothing at all, in the same way that dirty, foul smelling, polluted air is definitely better than not having any air.

    * * *

    I keep hearing people who claim they can melee and mind the spells without dropping a thing.

    Try asking the rest of the players about the meleeing RDMs they typically see: are those the super-RDMs, or the useless RDMs who barely Refresh or enfeeble, never mind curing? (And, did they out damage the DRG's wyvern?)

    Just because something is possible, it hardly means it's possible for every RDM who want to be DD to be effective. Too many who tried turned into exp leeches, IMO.

    * * *

    Originally posted by Electricity Gone Human View Post
    1. You'll need a Melee gear set, as there are plenty of useful pieces RDM can use to make one. Even if it's the Crimson Blade at 49 (You can laugh, but dual-wielding this at 49-55 is pretty handy for INT-based enfeebles, so it's a nice bonus). This has been explained a few times, so I'll just leave it at that.
    Staves--you cast offensive spells with them Lv.51+, not swords. Also, most often used/important enfeebs used in exp parties are MND based (i.e. Dia, Slow, and Silence). The important INT based ones (Sleep, Bind, Gravity) are done with elemental staves as well.

    Before Lv.51, INT/MND wands for casting--still not swords.

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  • Electricity Gone Human
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    OP: It could be done, but it would be sub-par when compared to a dedicated Damage Dealer, but here's what I've said throughout my RDM-dom: "it's better than nothing at all."

    1. You'll need a Melee gear set, as there are plenty of useful pieces RDM can use to make one. Even if it's the Crimson Blade at 49 (You can laugh, but dual-wielding this at 49-55 is pretty handy for INT-based enfeebles, so it's a nice bonus). This has been explained a few times, so I'll just leave it at that.

    2. a MAB+INT-oriented set, although since Magic Accuracy Bonus is a bit of an issue on RDM, you'll end up getting resisted about half of the time. It's useful when doing things with BLMs for: EXP on Wamoura Princes in the 70's and/or general Nuke-Kite-Debuffing. You'll still throw some refreshes in, but not as frequently.

    That's my input.

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  • Icemage
    replied
    Re: rdm as DD?

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    "Can utilize" hardly means whacking everything that moves with a sword. (Heck, you don't see Warriors above Lv.40 use Provoke, do you?)
    I do, but only at level 74+. But that's besides the point.

    Square-Enix has said a lot of bizarre things over the years. Their official descriptions of many of the jobs is seriously out of sync with how the jobs actually play - red mage in particular has undergone massive changes since its initial introduction, so it suffers from this more than most.

    That doesn't mean we, as players, don't have a responsibility to educate others about how to best take advantage of the job they are playing. If we just shrug and say "Oh well do whatever you want, I'm sure it'll be fine." then we have no right to complain the next time we see a red mage in our party wearing a scorpion harness with a ninja subjob.


    Icemage

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