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(Pup) Come on…no excitement here?

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  • KingOfZeal
    replied
    Re: (Pup) Come on…no excitement here?

    Originally posted by Romyro View Post
    Try joining a random nyzul group, or a new dynamis/limbus shell and tell them all you have is pup. Do it just for fun, 9 out of 10 times they’re gonna be like…”um…do you have something that can be of some use?”. I'm hoping maybe now they'll be like...'ok...we'll give you a shot."
    Like you (as you can see by my sig), I have bard leveled, which I did before I completed PUP, but while I was leveling it. Initially thinking that PUP/BRD may be a good build, especially as a back-line party member, I was very hesitant to let anybody know I had this job leveled.

    However, when I finally decided to join a Nyzul static, I did tell them that I had both jobs. The leader (who may or may not have had some prior good experiences with pup) let me come as pup/whm for every floor run we did, except for the boss floors, which she asked I came as bard.

    During my climb, we all discovered one thing: PUPs rock at climbing Nyzul, especially if they're clear on their role. Primarily, when trying to clear the objectives, you would have a valoredge/sharpshot build -- basically, ranger body with melee head, so they will run in to get more TP. Fast TP = more frequent WS, which when you're doing Nyzul will tend to be Daze or Armor Piercer. I force Daze whenever possible. But, if you know you're nearing the end of the objective on the floor, you set you puppet against the mob (especially helpful if it's just one mob to kill), and while you're friend is wacking away at the mob, you run back to the lamp. You're not loosing any of your DD output, and as soon as the objective is cleared you can go up to the next floor. I would do the same thing on bard, since it's not as useful for anything once songs are up. However, the leader (and the members as well) I think gained a totally new perspective on just how useful PUP can be, especially under the right circumstances. I don't think I've ever been called a lolpup from those people, and while they often want me to come as bard to events (dynamis etc), I'm one of the first who would be allowed to change to what is considered a less desirable job if able.

    I have also gone as PUP in dynamis a few times, but the results are mediocre. If you go as a BLM puppet, you can't do time nukes very well. If you go as just about any other kind of frame, it'll tend to die too easily. It can work, and I've done it successfully, but you need to keep your finger on the Deactivate in case something goes wrong, and hope that it's at 100% when you do.
    Last edited by KingOfZeal; 03-15-2010, 07:20 PM.

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  • Armando
    replied
    Re: (Pup) Come on…no excitement here?

    Considering the PUP would have 60% less hit rate than the MNK and significantly less Attack, yes.

    But I find it highly unlikely that skills will continue to increase using the same formulas we use now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mhurron
    replied
    Re: (Pup) Come on…no excitement here?

    Originally posted by Tickmeoff View Post
    The point is that at the same time PUP gets an A in H2H, the level cap will be raised. If we assume skills will progress at about the same rate per level and PUP retained a C in hand to hand they would have somewhere in the neighborhood of 280 skill at 99 while Monks would have about 400.
    Is this really a problem when a PUP has a pet also doing damage with them and the MNK doesn't?

    Leave a comment:


  • Tickmeoff
    replied
    Re: (Pup) Come on…no excitement here?

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    The increase to Hand-to-Hand skill is silly and not needed, IMO, but people whined too much about the master's own melee damage output, so SE caved.

    You're thinking about this the wrong way.

    At level 75 and not including merits a Puppetmaster's max H2H skill is 225. A Monk's is 276. This is already a disgusting difference, but that's not even the point.

    The point is that at the same time PUP gets an A in H2H, the level cap will be raised. If we assume skills will progress at about the same rate per level and PUP retained a C in hand to hand they would have somewhere in the neighborhood of 280 skill at 99 while Monks would have about 400.

    There is no way a PUP would be able to keep up with anything at that rate. I don't think this was as much of a "herp PUPs keep complaining, lets buff them," but a way to make sure PUP doesn't totally fall behind after the level cap is raised.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mezlo
    replied
    Re: (Pup) Come on…no excitement here?

    No offense taken.

    And I can't wait for the pup update! It's going to be epic!

    Leave a comment:


  • Romyro
    replied
    Re: (Pup) Come on…no excitement here?

    No offense there bud, but I’d rather see people's opinion on pup after the update than discuss how I tried not to contradict myself.

    If you feel that I did. Then I apologize to you and all who agree.
    If you got a good laugh out of it…then “you’re welcome”

    Did you have anything you wanted to add about the pup update?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mezlo
    replied
    Re: (Pup) Come on…no excitement here?

    I just thought it was funny your first sentence stated you didn't want to say pup is better than X, but then the next sentence you say your pup did better than some blm's. Just sayin... Funny...

    Leave a comment:


  • Romyro
    replied
    Re: (Pup) Come on…no excitement here?

    how so. i said my puppet does better then some blms in my limbus shell.
    i didnt say Pup is better then blm in limbus.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mezlo
    replied
    Re: (Pup) Come on…no excitement here?

    Originally posted by Romyro View Post
    I don’t want to go into a ‘Pup > ???’ convo.
    contradicts

    Originally posted by Romyro View Post
    I’ve actually done better (damage wise) than some of the Blms in my limbus shell.
    this

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  • Romyro
    replied
    Re: (Pup) Come on…no excitement here?

    The problem is the inability to cast cures back-to-back and to scale the cures down to what's needed.
    Yes this is rather annoying. Needing maybe 100-150 hps and he still spams Cure V. Or Blinda when I have 7 hps left ….why mushroom…why?

    Ranger puppet is also similar to these -- the delay between shots (and lately I'll admit I've been having accuracy problems as well) means he can't be a DD as well as a real ranger.
    I’ve heard good things about a capped Rng frame…but I’m just no there yet. I would like to see it’s potential.

    The only frame I will willingly admit have serious issues when compared with it's real counterpart is the PLD frame. It's nice if you're going after something with a lot of AoEs (Hello Canibal Blade) but it can't take a hit for anything. There's virtually no way to beef up it's defense to the point of tanking.
    this is by far the thing I’m most looking forward too. A more defensive pld frame. I love the valoredge (pld) frame. Massive HP that I can use to swap out in situations, no need to deactivate/activate and a decent self-healing WS. And your right…if he’s tanking, spamming oils+2 will only get you so far (even with the G. Earring). Though his damage isn’t anything spectacular, I find he’s my favorite frame to use. I can for the most part keep a steady hate balance between me and him. Also, there’s a nice amount of Pet:Haste options out there now making him slightly better.

    As far as the update, I'm quite happy I'm getting an A H2H skill. They might even allow us to quest a WS (besides Stringing Pummel) to go on par with Asuran Fists (or even AF itself... I would love to have a taru backflip WS). I'm not holding my breath too much, but at the very least it will allow me to drop the 5 million ACC+ I have to have, and trade it out for some Atk or Haste pieces. If nothing else, that makes it worth it.
    Pup has some nice haste pieces but yeah then you’re hurting your accuracy…which apparently we need a lot of. And with stringing pummel being multi-hit…I’m hesitant to make many gear swaps because I want the hits to land. Maybe just making the H2h a B rating wouldn’t be to overkill.

    I like PUPs in endgame to use the mage frame; the ability to cast and run at the same time is really nice. (And fun to look at. lol.)
    yeah I’ll admit this is nice, at least you (a non-pup as it appears) can see some of it’s potential. And I appreciate that. This is why I think ‘at times’ it shines over a blm.

    Here’s what it comes down too. I haven’t been a 75 for very long. Maybe a couple months. Everyday I learn something new from you guys or other people who have used it longer. I have 1 job that can get me into most things but at the cost of having fun (my brd). I would like to see me and my puppet parse pretty close to a DDer at 75. Keep in mind though I said with my puppet, I have no objections to being laughed at if my puppet is gone and I’m only half as good.

    Maybe I’m just seeking for more pup awareness out of the community. Like a dozen other jobs have before me. I just don’t see that happening without this update though. Some pups have proved themselves worthy yet others still laugh at them. This could be because for every GOOD pup, theres 2 or 3 bad pups...(same could be said for Bst since they too don't have the best reputation).

    Try joining a random nyzul group, or a new dynamis/limbus shell and tell them all you have is pup. Do it just for fun, 9 out of 10 times they’re gonna be like…”um…do you have something that can be of some use?”. I'm hoping maybe now they'll be like...'ok...we'll give you a shot."

    Leave a comment:


  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: (Pup) Come on…no excitement here?

    Originally posted by Solymir View Post
    The problem is the closer to 75 you get the further apart a Pup's performance gets from other DD.
    I think the gap is in large part due to the standard melee buffs--they go on the master, who is less able to take advantage of them compared to melee DDs. RNGs 'suffer' even worse with haste type buffs. I've a feeling that without buffs, PUP's total damage output (including the automaton) can be comparable to melee jobs.


    Originally posted by Romyro View Post
    Hmmm…maybe H2h is silly then. What would I be missing? More Acc/Atk perhaps??
    Until the H2H update, I would think accuracy gear is the best thing a PUP can add to himself for party use. No clue about the automaton attachments, though; you'll need to ask real PUP players.

    On the bright side, there are a lot of Colibris between Lv.55 and Lv.76 when exp'ing, and PUP does have a ranger frame for their automaton.

    Originally posted by Romyro View Post
    While that XP parsing is nice I’m also trying to see if they’d fit in well in higher lvl situations such as meriting, mission and/or other events (like Nyzul, Limbus, Dynamis…etc). as melee DDers, not the mage frame.
    If you're really into physical damage, I'd guess melee frame for super high level monsters, and ranger frame for everything else.

    The puller for that exp party brought back a Helm Beetle for some reason at one point, and the parse showed the RNG automaton did far more damage with melee than with ranged attacks. For whatever the reason, melee attacks just scaled better. Not sure if that holds for Lv.75, though.

    I like PUPs in endgame to use the mage frame; the ability to cast and run at the same time is really nice. (And fun to look at. lol.)

    Leave a comment:


  • KingOfZeal
    replied
    Re: (Pup) Come on…no excitement here?

    I have loved PUP since the day it came out. One thing I've noticed about it, however, isn't it's ability to be superior in a certain position, but it's ability to cover all positions reasonably well. For example, spell-for-spell, my black mage puppet holds its own against real black mages. The disadvantages are (as mentioned earlier) its somewhat limited utility spells and the fact that the AI prevents possibilities of back-to-back spells. Throw in the fact that (generally speaking) after about 3 casts of T4s it uses Aspir (and throw in the absorb-int from time to time) and of course it's not doing to do as much DoT. But, if you're looking for quick spike black magics, you'll do just as well choosing a pup as a blm.

    The same can easily be said of my white mage puppet -- cure for cure, my puppet can match a decently-geared and skilled white mage. The problem is the inability to cast cures back-to-back and to scale the cures down to what's needed. If you're talking of a solo though, I can go on forever with my white mage puppet; I often call him a "White mana battery" (bonus points to those who get the reference) because of his ability to convert and heal himself with one cure.

    Ranger puppet is also similar to these -- the delay between shots (and lately I'll admit I've been having accuracy problems as well) means he can't be a DD as well as a real ranger. No matter what frame you choose though, it's still only ONE JOB. Very little needs to change gear wise. PUPs are the master of versatility, and it's a shame that people can't see past the puppet and see the job for what it is.

    The only frame I will willingly admit have serious issues when compared with it's real counterpart is the PLD frame. It's nice if you're going after something with a lot of AoEs (Hello Canibal Blade) but it can't take a hit for anything. There's virtually no way to beef up it's defense to the point of tanking.


    And all this was just about 75s. I will argue to the end of time that PUP is by far one of the best subjob options for any job 1-10, and a terrific alternate tank (as main job) for 10-15 (or 20). 1-10 I use PUP, since he can duplicate (or even beat) my own DD output. Equip an animator and use Light maneuvers to handle the minuscule hits, and it's a tank. I can send my puppet after one mob while I fight another. On the tougher ones, we team up and share the tanking. In the dunes on pup I remember having Nutcracker tank the mobs we were fighting on the PLD frame. Between Provoke, shield bash, and some very nice damage reduction attachments (which slack off a lot in the upper levels), he was able to do as well as any turtle pld could.


    As far as the update, I'm quite happy I'm getting an A H2H skill. They might even allow us to quest a WS (besides Stringing Pummel) to go on par with Asuran Fists (or even AF itself... I would love to have a taru backflip WS). I'm not holding my breath too much, but at the very least it will allow me to drop the 5 million ACC+ I have to have, and trade it out for some Atk or Haste pieces. If nothing else, that makes it worth it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Romyro
    replied
    Re: (Pup) Come on…no excitement here?

    Hmmm…maybe H2h is silly then. What would I be missing? More Acc/Atk perhaps?? Geez, I felt I had a ton of acc already ><. I thought I had a nice looking pup lol. May I just need a parser to actually get to the nitty gritty.

    How would this look on 50+ mobs, I thought mobs kinda change around that time frame…I’m not extremely melee savvy so please excuse my ignorance. This is why I come to you guys. I don’t melee a lot on my Bst as the things I like to do don’t allow for it.

    As Bst I’ve always tried to make my pets as offensive/defensive as possible.
    As Smn I work on Smn skill and –perp cost (meh on MP since I’m taru)
    As Brd…well as I stated I hate Brd so I try not to waste much Inv space on it.

    I started focusing more and melee gear when I would solo with my whm puppet. Back then it was more evasion follow by accuracy. At higher levels I wanted to see how’d they’d fare on missions/bcnms. So far I’ve done CoP 7-4 (I believe that’s the Tenzen mission), and we did win on our 2nd attempt (lost the first attempt by a few mere HPs iirc).

    While that XP parsing is nice I’m also trying to see if they’d fit in well in higher lvl situations such as meriting, mission and/or other events (like Nyzul, Limbus, Dynamis…etc). as melee DDers, not the mage frame.

    I'm not saying i want to be better than all Mnks/Sams/Wars, im just hoping we'll be considered more oppose to getting replies such as ">< lolpup"

    Leave a comment:


  • Solymir
    replied
    Re: (Pup) Come on…no excitement here?

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    The increase to Hand-to-Hand skill is silly and not needed, IMO, but people whined too much about the master's own melee damage output, so SE caved.

    For mid to low leveled, at least, I consider PUP to be overpowered. I posted this earlier to show how damage output from NIN helps for tanking, but the real star was the PUP if one looks closely in this Lv.45-48 party:

    Damage Summary
    Player................Total Dmg...Damage %...Melee Dmg...Range Dmg...Abil. Dmg..WSkill Dmg...Spell Dmg Other Dmg
    Itazura (NIN/WAR).........54714....23.74 %.......23614...........0.........191........5639......25270.......0
    MNK/WAR...................51470....22.33 %.......38457...........0.........673.......11411..........0.....929
    SAM/WAR...................46968....20.38 %.......36930...........0...........0.......10038..........0.......0
    PUP/WAR...................28214....12.24 %.......23195...........0...........0........5019..........0.......0
    (automaton)...............42901....18.61 %.......15156.......18369...........0........9376..........0.......0


    As you can see, a good PUP already blows everyone else away as a DD, when the damage from the automaton is factored in. (Oh, the PUP player forgot Raging Fist was available; used only Combo the whole time; the real potential is actually a bit higher than this parse indicates.)
    I saw this in the other thread, and thought to myself how nice those levels were for pup. The problem is the closer to 75 you get the further apart a Pup's performance gets from other DD.

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  • Romyro
    replied
    Re: (Pup) Come on…no excitement here?

    I don’t want to go into a ‘Pup > ???’ convo. I respect and see potential in every job this game offers. But like everything in this game…I think things are situational.

    While pup cant sleep, bind (or some other enfeebs), I’ve actually done better (damage wise) than some of the Blms in my limbus shell. My dynamis shell has yet to let me come as pup… (Since I stupidly lvled Brd back in the day), so I can’t confirm on statues or anything. Even some NMs drop with ease to my pup (not using any DoT methods).

    In limbus my puppet was hitting a Bliz IV for 1400+ damage followed seconds later by another for 600-700 damage. The first spell I can remove hate, the second usually isn’t powerful enough to pull hate off the mobs so I need not worry about losing my auto (keep in mind though this is a well geared mage frame (Full merits, all attachments, Lots of ‘Pet: Magic Attack/Accurcy” gear)).

    On stronger Bosses (such as sky gods or higher), my puppet has been ‘ok’ at best. I can easily see Blms having less problems. I don’t doubt for a second a decked out Blm will be better than a decked out pup. And I’m currently working on Blm (67) to see which I like better. But so far in a group setting, I like Pup better.

    I’m more than happy to shoot the sh&% back and forth with you about the mage frames but I’d like to gear this topic more toward meleeing. For obvious reasons most other DDers are far better at the job. I’m wonder if people will think a little differently now.

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