Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

[Kylen]

Re: Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

BBQ is right that COR rolls are 1/2 their normal strength when subbed, but Malacite is also right that /COR is arguably one of the best all-around DD subjobs in the 22-29 range thanks to Hunter's Roll. Even at half strengh, your whole party should generally be getting +10-25 accuracy unless you get unlucky and land on 8, which is a pretty large bonus for that level range when +acc. gear is scarce.

Proving that /COR rolls are 1/2 strength is easy: Go sub 37 /COR on a 75 job, do a couple Chaos Rolls, and you'll see that the percentage attack you gain is 1/2 what it should be. To be more precise, the bonus for Phantom Roll actually suffers a level penalty of (COR's level / target's level) * normal roll strength, so subbing /COR is the same as getting a roll from a 37 COR main job.

And yes, you do get the job bonus on rolls if the appropriate job is in your party when subbing /COR, although that job bonus is halved in effectiveness, too. Again, this is very easy to test with Chaos Roll by going 75 DRK/COR or any other job/COR and putting a DRK in your party.

[Lmnop]

Re: Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

Except that the option to fix your own accuracy has been there since the days of CoPs and its only become cheaper - sushi. Not only that, the options for accuracy gear have only increased and gotten cheaper and cheaper. If my COR can come with enough accuracy to hit a mob, what is the melees' excuse?

And why should I dole out a buff that can be covered by food and gear when I can offer better things? Doesn't matter if I'm COR or BRD - there are some avenues you take care of on your own.

While I agree with your sentiment about providing unique buffs, and I feel people should be well-geared, it's not your duty to tell people what build sucks more. If someone wants to build for pure sushi and +attack gear, they deserve that right! It's much cheaper (or was when I was in the 60s) and the performance isn't that different! The bigger problem I have is with the dumb fuck melee who eat sushi through these levels and wear all the +acc they can get. You know what the worst part about them is? You will claim they know what they're doing because you can give them something other than +acc! When I could afford to eat meat in this level range, I did so with ~80-88% melee accuracy (figuring in Aggressor 60% of the time). My gear wasn't ideal, but it was decent. Someone giving me +5% damage dealt would be appreciated. But my output was good enough that I didn't need a Madrigal to perform well.

I know pretty damn well there are RDMs that won't spend the MP to haste you if you don't already have haste gear. I can't say that I blame them. Why should they make the effort when its clear thier PT members clearly don't care about improving their own performance?

These RDMs are tools, too. As long as your melee aren't wearing slow% gear of any sort, they should be getting hasted if you'd like a decent exp rate. Haste gear doesn't define a melee as "making an effort to improve themselves". It means the player now has the resources to push themselves further. Ffs, 'bbq. This entire post wreaks of elitism. I have higher expectations of you than this.

/COR and /BRD don't offer any advantageous job traits, both take away from your DPS.

Wut? Using Phantom Roll + 1 Double Up cuts into auto-attack time as much as activating Berserk + Hasso. Even long-ass Dancer JAs have a long root effect but do not pause auto-attack longer than any other JA.

Gimp your DRG if you want, but the deficiencies of others are not of my concern. Jobs such as COR, BRD and RDM are there to enhance the PT members, not un-gimp them.

Even if there's a full COR in the party, if the buffs are good enough, you can have 3 going. Let the real COR do the rolls that you profess a pure support class will focus on (Samurai/Fighter's Rolls, whatever) while the /COR does Hunter's. I cry a lot when I get CORs in my parties and they do Hunter's against all wishes, but from someone just subbing it? Why the hell not!

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

While I agree with your sentiment about providing unique buffs, and I feel people should be well-geared, it's not your duty to tell people what build sucks more.

And its not your place to tell the party what buffs I should roll, I'm smart enough to decide what works and I find it unfair to the people who DO know what they're doing to deprive them of buffs they they'd benefit from just to compensate for the players that don't bother to better themselves.

Again, my job is enhancing you, not fixing you. My job isn't to babysit my party members and make them feel better that they're EXPing rather than invest the time in getting the gear they need.

These RDMs are tools, too. As long as your melee aren't wearing slow% gear of any sort, they should be getting hasted if you'd like a decent exp rate. Haste gear doesn't define a melee as "making an effort to improve themselves". It means the player now has the resources to push themselves further. Ffs, 'bbq. This entire post wreaks of elitism. I have higher expectations of you than this.

ToA and CoP together give away 9% haste for free. Anyone can get it and wear it, there are no resouces involved, just raw motivation.

Wut? Using Phantom Roll + 1 Double Up cuts into auto-attack time as much as activating Berserk + Hasso. Even long-ass Dancer JAs have a long root effect but do not pause auto-attack longer than any other JA.

So you're forgetting that you also have to buff the backline in addition to the frontline and also forgetting that the number generator sometimes has a sense of humor. It will occasionally take a long string of 1s or 2s to get somewhere. This affects DoT.

Main COR has to march back the backline twice sometimes, too, this affects DoT as well.

Even if there's a full COR in the party, if the buffs are good enough, you can have 3 going. Let the real COR do the rolls that you profess a pure support class will focus on (Samurai/Fighter's Rolls, whatever) while the /COR does Hunter's. I cry a lot when I get CORs in my parties and they do Hunter's against all wishes, but from someone just subbing it? Why the hell not!

Because you'd serve the PT better as /WAR, /SAM or even (gasp) /NIN. Most high end PTs I've been in don't even need it from the main job, so why would they need it from the sub.

I think the best situations for /COR have already been laid out, the 20s to 30 and then maybe lesser colibri where eating sushi isn't practical and accuracy gear isn't up to part just yet.

[Lmnop]

Re: Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

ToA and CoP together give away 9% haste for free. Anyone can get it and wear it, there are no resouces involved, just raw motivation.

Funny, I seem to remember you telling someone else recently that they don't have an "average" life. I log on about 3 times/week for 2-4 hours each. 2 of those days cost me 60k (that's Limbus). I don't even have the time to try to sell my coins. Should I be completely unallowed to join a merit party because I'm 0/3 on Swift Belt and all my friends have quit?

So you're forgetting that you also have to buff the backline in addition to the frontline

If you have a COR or BRD in the party, they can do this better. If you don't, your benefit to mage MP pool will be needed much more than 2 swings of a lance every 5 minutes.

Because you'd serve the PT better as /WAR, /SAM or even (gasp) /NIN. Most high end PTs I've been in don't even need it from the main job, so why would they need it from the sub.

Who ever said anything about needing these buffs? And why the hell do you keep forgetting the 60s? Not everything is 20k/hour merits. Like I said, 80-85% accuracy is just fine. It doesn't make you gimp. Usually, these builds gain more DPS in normal melee swings to offset the fact that they're not maxing their acc. However, these same builds will get the most from an extra 5-10% hit rate. Note: even at 85% acc, my ideal songs from bard are March > Minuet > Madrigal.

I think the best situations for /COR have already been laid out, the 20s to 30 and then maybe lesser colibri where eating sushi isn't practical and accuracy gear isn't up to part just yet.

I think I tend to agree, actually. But calling it FSUKING GIMP everywhere else is just being elitist and you know it. Just because someone else wants to hop in and do some help playing support, you get super pissed off that someone's treading on your turf. While you're at it, can you not stand SMNs because they occasionally use a Fenrir buff and not hastega? Does it drive you crazy when a BLU sets primarily non-damage spells?

Really, the only reason I'd be hesitant to invite a /cor is because most people who "think outside the box" just don't know the facts (in regards to job/sj). They probably don't even know how to work the combo.

[Vyuru]

Re: Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

ToA and CoP together give away 9% haste for free. Anyone can get it and wear it, there are no resouces involved, just raw motivation.

Not entirely true. Granted, the Walahra Turban is pretty easy to get. The +haste belt however is time intensive and resource consuming to get.

Also, most +haste gear is after lvl 70. I myself wouldn't even consider making a +haste build until I hit lvl 75, until I can go and get at least +10% Haste from gear, it's not worth it to me.

Also, until very recently, most of the +haste gear was hideously expensive (dusk) or very time consuming to attain (Homam), it's only recently that dusk has greatly fallen in price to become affordable to the average player, and that alternatives to Homam have come. The Aurum Sabotons are the final piece for the average player's haste build. I can now obtain a relatively easy and inexpensive build with +17% haste or so. I don't have to compete with other LS members for drops for this build, nor do I have to sell my soul for this either. This is a very recent change and it will take some time to see the full effects of it.

You are also forgetting that most +haste builds are rather weak for WSing in, and that many people also have a WS set of armor. So when you talk about a +haste set, you also have to take into account another completely different set of armor for WSing as well, which also costs time and money to put together.

Just because someone does not have a +haste set put together does not necessarily mean that they do not care about it.

And on the +acc buff issues.

I agree with 'Kitten in that I darn well expect melees to cover their end of the +acc area, if they want to go +acc build and eat meat, that's fine, if they want to eat sushi and go with a +att build, that's fine, as is something inbetween if that's what works for them.

However, no party is perfect. Members may threaten to leave if you overhunt, mages might be higher than melee and to get decent exp they may have to go to a higher area than the melee would normally go, shit happens, we all know it. When that happens, or when, even if the melees are geared well and have their end of the +acc covered, they still have trouble on mobs for whatever reason, through no fault of their own, yes, I do expect the Cor, or Brd, or whatever to step in with the +acc buff/s.

I agree, your job is to buff the party, not to babysit it. But if the melee would be better off with a +acc song rather than a +att or +haste or +whatever buff, then that is what you have to do.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

However, no party is perfect. Members may threaten to leave if you overhunt, mages might be higher than melee and to get decent exp they may have to go to a higher area than the melee would normally go, shit happens, we all know it. When that happens, or when, even if the melees are geared well and have their end of the +acc covered, they still have trouble on mobs for whatever reason, through no fault of their own, yes, I do expect the Cor, or Brd, or whatever to step in with the +acc buff/s.

You might accept these PTs and stay with them, but not all of us choose to. Most people tend to know if they'll be overhunting or have a level imbalance well before they leave town. If you choose to stay and know from experience that you're in the camp too early for your level, you deserve whatever misery that's coming to you.

I hate to say it, but we're talking about classes that can get into situations they want versus a job that can't always do that and is really only wanted for one specific thing - damage. That said, I'd much rather have a DRG/Mage in PT than a DRG feigning a support class because even DRG/Mage is playing to the job's unique strengths.

[Lunaryn]

Re: Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

Ultimately the value of support subs stems from the support coverage situation of the party. In my static trio as DRK, if I focus everything on improving melee damage and accuracy, I end up having to take steps such as not engaging the mob for the first several seconds of battle, or turning my back to the mob from time to time, or not making use of Last Resort and Souleater. On the other hand, if I go for a more DD/support hybrid, I can get some decent results, help make battles go more smoothly, and go all out when I am trying to damage, without taking hate long enough to be a problem if at all.

At the moment I'm generally going DRK/DNC when up against Aspirable mobs (our entire party frontlines and uses MP, especially our PLD/RDM tank), and DRK/WHM otherwise. The playstyle is pretty different, but aspir dazes generally stick and last pretty well unless I have to cast multiple spells back-to-back. I actually start the battle geared for INT, cycle through absorbs (INT, AGI, TP, VIT, DEX, STR; TP gets moved as appropriate and DEX and STR are skipped sometimes depending on battle pace), possibly land a couple other debuffs, switch to melee gear, and then switch back to INT gear for nukes/MBs and renewing Absorbs.

I think the essential argument against a support subjob like /BRD or /COR is that you ought to have a BRD or COR main in your party. It's easy for small parties to see why that might be discarded, but we do have to remind people from time to time that most xp parties aren't made out of an ideal selection and required to have ideal choices for each role before you leave town. You might be able to be that picky if you're a top tier job seeking meripo, but below 75 pickings are generally slim. Moreover, as long as they're leveled enough, subjobs are the key ability-defining thing in xp (not meripo) that you actually can change according to a party's needs; if you change to another main job, you might be another level entirely, and even if not, you won't be advancing the job you intended to.