Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

[Sabaron]

There was another DRG/COR thread that came up previously, but it had absolutely no information in it.

What I'm looking at are comparison numbers between the performance of DRG with the COR sub relative to performace of DRG with its "normal" subs WAR and SAM on levels up to and including 75.

I'm a fairly new DRG, only 33rd level now, but I've found that in the vast majority of my low-level parties, I've been using /COR to provide the (rather awesome) Hunter's Roll for myself and party. I only get one roll and busts are bad so I've been doing the "Super Safe" rolling method where only numbers less than 6 are rerolled.

The process I've been using is to toss Hunter's Roll and shoot for: 4 (Lucky) and anything over 8. If the resulting number is anything else, I throw Chaos Roll toward the end of the fight and the refresh Hunter's as soon as my timer comes up. If I get a 4, 9, 10, or 11, I leave the roll on for its full 5 minute duration.

Now... WAR would provide me with

• Berserk (@30) 25% Attack bonus for 3/5 minutes,
• Double Attack +10% (@50),
• Warcry (@70) 5.25% Attack bonus for 0.5/5 minutes for all members.

SAM gives me

• Store TP 10% (@20), 15% (@60)
• Third Eye (@30) 1 "shadow"
• Zanshin (@40) Mitigates 10% of Missed attacks
• Hasso (@50) +3~5 STR, +10 Acc, +10% Haste
• Meditate (@60) +60% TP every 3 minutes
• Seigan (@70), multiple "shadows"

COR gives me

• Hunter's Roll (@22) About ~15 Accuracy to all.
• Chaos Roll (@28) ~9% Attack bonus to all.
• Healer's Roll (@40) ~3 hMP for the mages.
• Samurai Roll (@75) ~13% Store TP for all.

Now it may just be the fact that I'm a "support" kind of guy, but to me, I think that subbing Corsair whenever a real one isn't present looks like the best of these 3 options to me. When looking at the differences, to me, it looks like COR's benefits to myself and the entire party look better overall than anything that either of the other common sub jobs provide.

Am I crazy?

I see two flaws:

Berserk is insanely powerful, but I also know that Berserk tends to get Dragoons into trouble with their relatively light armor, so most DRGs have to hold back on it anyway.

Third Eye/Seigan later provides damage mitigation without compromising my output nearly as much as /NIN would, and Hasso's 10% Haste is a wonderful bonus for a Haste build.

[Lmnop]

Re: Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

You still on Asura? We should try to party some time! (33 BLU I'm trying to get leveled).

As for your SJ thing: I wonder what I would've had to say a year ago. I think, particularly in a melee-heavy party, that you're likely right. My last party, I had a Dnc/Brd doing Madrigal. Wasn't like zomg-good (+10ish acc is pretty much impossible to eyeball) but hey, he kept it up and exp rolled really well. Not like any other sub would do him better @that level.

And hey, if you're actually keeping Healer's roll up, I'm inclined to agree with you.

All the same, don't neglect your pure melee subs. No doubt you've seen tons of FFXIO propaganda (that'd be Armando and me, mostly) saying how incredible Shield Break is for Warriors. So riddle me this. Why don't you see Shield Break often? Well, the answer is because people would rather see a big Sturmwind than the larger increase +20 acc does for the party. So lemme reword that: why don't I (with my great axe merits and all) continue to use Shield Break? Simple answer: fight isn't long enough to justify it. This happens as early as 55, now. Ok, so what am I getting at?

There may come a point where you'll find it more beneficial to stay intrinsic with your buffs (hasso, berserk, etc). I can't tell you when that'll be. Indeed, you may never come to that as a 5 minute buff is vastly different than a debuff that lasts only as long as the mob.

Regardless, you have many levels to contemplate. 70 and the defenses of Seigan are the only thing I'd worry about.

[Nuriko]

Re: Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

The OP was saying it was dependent on not having an actual COR about, so likely already has the melee subs needed to do otherwise.

[Sabaron]

Re: Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

All the same, don't neglect your pure melee subs.

The situation is the exact opposite. I pre-level my subjobs, and I already have WAR, SAM, WHM, RDM, NIN and BRD available among others for up to 75th level. COR, in fact would be in addition to the regular subs. My COR is 18th level currently, so I would have to level it up after 37th as DRG in order to use at above that. With the exception of Dragoon, my signature is up-to-date.

The question is... How much is it worth to do that extra 18 levels? I know that it is acceptable for me to use my existing subs, but what I'm talking about is the use of the COR alternate as a primary sub-job (e.g. the default). I'm looking at the idea as a study in feasibility--is it more beneficial, in general, for me to use COR to provide benefits to my party or is it better to stick with the normal subs?

I don't want to bother with it if it's not going to be worthwhile. This precludes any pre-conception or prejudice, so look at it purely from a statistical standpoint... The question is.....

How frequently and under what conditions is...

COR > WAR?

COR > SAM?

[Kailea]

Re: Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

I have tried every sub with DRG, leveled them all to 37 ;p

DRG/COR is ok

but the penalties for /COR and the limitations, just make it no worth it

at 75 the only subs I use are

/DNC
/BLU
/SCH
/SAM
/WAR

[Vyuru]

Re: Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

I would suspect that /Cor falls behind /War and /Sam when they gain some more of their key abilities. Lvl 50 for Drg/War for Double Attack/Berserk and lvl 60 for Drg/Sam for Meditate/Hasso/TE.

Too, as you get into the lvl 50-60 range, many jobs will gain gear that they SHOULD have. Hauby, +acc rings, Viking Axe, and other +acc gear. For the one handed jobs, there is Sushi to eat and I wouldn't worry about them too much. For the two handed jobs, hopefully their accuracy should be fine, but I could see them needing a mild +acc boost.

For Drg/War:

By lvl 60 you will most likely be using a GKL, have two +acc traits, and a messload of +acc. The +acc roll will not be beneficial to you (much), nor do I think will it be beneficial to party members due to food, abiliities, and absorb spells (which yes those Drks should be using)

I haven't used one so I don't know, but assuming the Dark Mezraq has the same -20 Eva added effect, and the same activation rate as the Mezraq/Thasowhatever, I'd think that this might be a better, if more unreliable alternative than a +acc roll from /Cor.

For Chaos Roll, I think I'd equate this with Berserk simply because you can have it up 24/7. I think that this might be more usefull than the +acc roll, however I question it's usefullness more from the standpoint, is it worth giving up a 10% DA rate when the mob should have Dia II/III and Acid Bolts on the mob for a roughly +9% attack boost?

I just don't know on that question, especially when Haste is tossed in. I think that this is a grey area. Also, I don't know how well a +9% attack boost would equate with taking 25% of your defense and adding it to your attack would be at later levels. Both your Attack and Defense stats are growing, and I just don't know which would be the better option for you and at what point the clear winner would be.

Situationally, I think Drg/Cor would be great on Imps since you only have one roll to work with. I had a hard time using my job abilities effectively (like Jumps, Meditate, SE+TE, Berserk) like I would have liked to, so having a long lasting AoE buff for the party is greatly appealing to me.

I'll have to touch on Drg/Sam later, but briefly, I prefer to save my Jumps and Meditate for SCing, so typically I'll use them after I WS so that I'm ready to SC with someone else. It would be my opinion that spitting out so many SCs and giving the mages a chance to MB if they so choose, plus added wyvern breath attacks, outweigh the benefits of the AoE buffs.

So in summary:

Low level stuff and against Imps I think this has promise.
I question it's usefullness at 60+ on anything that is non-Imp and doesn't have Amnesia.
As almost always, I agree with Lmnop

[Lmnop]

Re: Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

Healer's roll is something worth re-mentioning. It'll always be appreciated, and at low-mid levels (probably 55 and under), it'll actually be noticeable.

Here's the thing on my mind: what does /cor offer a Dragoon that it doesn't offer any other melee DD? Or what do other melee DD require from subs that Dragoons don't need?

I guess I'm just thinking: why not Drk/cor? Why not War/cor (that sounds funny)? Showing up to a party as Thf/cor seems less than ideal but really, why not? For some reason, the thf example doesn't sit well with me at all. I think I'd be terrified to invite a thf/cor or a war/cor but perfectly with sam/drk/drg/blu subbing it. Weird. Hmm. Ok, sorry, done with the self-analysis.

Just the same as I find /dnc melee to be a nice addition to any non-tp burn party, I don't really see what's ineffective about this. /brd melee always seemed sorta this way too. But 8 second casting and nerfed a lot more than COR when subbed really hurts it. Of course, busting hurts you more than a main COR...

I'm rambling now. I don't have any effective input that you don't already know. I think you should go for it. If nothing else, you can use the leveled sub for rdm/cor in small Campaign parties.

[Kailea]

Re: Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

well guess /COR is like /DRK an many other "different" subs for DRG

for instance /DRK is a nice sub for DRG oddly.... but it can creat so much spike damage is scarry

last resort >> souleater >> penta thrust ^.^

but anyway back to /COR

/COR would be like /BRD really


but with /COR you dont have to worry about a skill

[Sabaron]

Re: Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

Now, I thought /DNC was not great in combination with 2-hand DDs especially DRG because of DRG/RDMs "best-of-both-worlds" healing/using TP aspects. Do you really find significant benefit from it?

[Skoal]

Re: Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

/DNC is not a good option for DRG. Stick with /WAR and in 2 levels you will be able to shed a little hate. Unless you have a crappy tank or have no idea how to control your own hate, /WAR shouldn't be a problem. I just think the /COR benefits are outweighed by other subs.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

One Roll.
Halved buffs.
Halved job bonuses.

Not worth it, just like /BRD usually isn't worth it.

While giving accuracy to others is a nice thought, I generally have no sympathy for those that don't cover thier own accuracy needs to start with. If you can't hit the mob to start with, you can't afford to eat meat. I'll sooner sell a sushi from my bazaar at higher levels than I'll do Hunter's Roll on COR or Madrigal on BRD. And I don't care how much a melee cries, they can cry more.

Low Colibri camps its fine, that's about as far as I'd go with it.

[Malacite]

Re: Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

COR sub from 22-29 isn't bad (for hunter's roll) since even on a 1 you'll get +10 acc, the same as you would from /RNG. DNC sub is another option (again only up to 29) since at least that way people are getting healed while they attack.


I really wouldn't use it post 30.


EDIT: What do you mean halved buffs BBQ? Far as I can tell Phantom Roll is just as effective when used as a sub job, you just can't get the job bonuses or put up more than 1.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

EDIT: What do you mean halved buffs BBQ? Far as I can tell Phantom Roll is just as effective when used as a sub job.

False, it works just like BRD as a sub. The buffs are halved in power.

[Lmnop]

Re: Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

So the wiki claims. Not that I doubt it, but I don't see any numbers to prove it. (maybe I should jump over to the COR forums and see if any testing there shows otherwise)

Even through the 60s, it takes sushi to get a very good hit rate. This was even true in AU for me (Eruca and imps pre-72-ish come to mind). If another 10 acc is available to all the melee, I don't see why you shouldn't. I think the "you should take care of yourself" outlook is precisely the same as the melee burn outlook, 'bbq. That's like saying it's the Thief's fault that the party is a bunch of douchebags that won't cooperate and make the THF lose half their damage output.

I think that 9% increase to everyone's attacks could be grand (if it really is that high). Honestly, with 3 other melee... I don't see how Berserk 60% of the time and Double attack would compete.

But through this whole thread, I keep feeling like there's something... blurry. Like all these numbers have been hashed out before and /support was always found to be useless.


But /cor doesn't play like /brd. /brd is weak and takes all your DPS time away.

/dnc isn't bad. I wouldn't do it on DRG (as any time you're wanted for healing stuff, you'd be better off with a mage or hybrid sub), but I enjoy playing support even as war/dnc with a greataxe. The Samba effect isn't always on but it's on enough to get most of its usefulness. Haste makes it even better.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Toying with the idea of DRG/COR

I think the "you should take care of yourself" outlook is precisely the same as the melee burn outlook, 'bbq.

Except that the option to fix your own accuracy has been there since the days of CoPs and its only become cheaper - sushi. Not only that, the options for accuracy gear have only increased and gotten cheaper and cheaper. If my COR can come with enough accuracy to hit a mob, what is the melees' excuse?

And why should I dole out a buff that can be covered by food and gear when I can offer better things? Doesn't matter if I'm COR or BRD - there are some avenues you take care of on your own.

I know pretty damn well there are RDMs that won't spend the MP to haste you if you don't already have haste gear. I can't say that I blame them. Why should they make the effort when its clear thier PT members clearly don't care about improving their own performance?

But /cor doesn't play like /brd. /brd is weak and takes all your DPS time away.

/COR and /BRD don't offer any advantageous job traits, both take away from your DPS. Both offer comprable buffs, Healer's and Samurai being the only real exclusive difference. COR buffs take longer or shorter to get out than a BRD buff, its highly variable, but I've had plenty of long double-ups.

Gimp your DRG if you want, but the deficiencies of others are not of my concern. Jobs such as COR, BRD and RDM are there to enhance the PT members, not un-gimp them.