Basic questions

[lufia22]

1.) I noticed I can roll while out of range of a player then double up near that player and have them receive the effect. Lets pretend I initially roll a 1 while out of range and then when in range of that player, I roll a 6 (for a total of 7). Does this player receive the 7 effect or just the 6 roll effect?

2.) I'm confused on the Corsair Roll and when to use it. From the guides and such I have read, it seems to be considered weak and not worth using. I am only level 21, but I found it to be fairly useful...Granted, this may just be because I'm low level, had a PL, and was able to blow through stuff. Last night I had a group chaining the crap out of Qufim worms, and this roll was easily offering 40+ XP extra XP every kill. We were getting quick kills worth 350 XP at around level 20 without XP rings thanks to this roll. Am I only seeing a use in this roll right now because things are just dying so fast? Do you ever use this roll later in the game?

3.) I was told by one 75 that level 22 bullets can be used all the way to 75. Is that true? It seems to be so as I really only see 2 upgrades for COR bullets passed the 22 ones. The first big one being Iron Bullets and then the last one being Steel Bullets. But these cost roughly double the amount of regular Bullets. Are Iron/Steel bullets mainly used in WS macros or do you guys actually spam these 140k per pouch stack bullets?

4.) I understand the concept behind the 4 roll rotation, but I read some guides where they said something like, "If your ninja requests it, you can give them Ninja Roll on the side," or substitute any lesser used roll that is really only useful for a few classes. I believe a 5 roll cycle is possible (though it would literally have 0 seconds in between rolls), but I'm curious how often this is done?

5.) What are some typical roll combinations (mainly for melee), or is it completely situational? If so, can you give me an example?

EDIT:

6.) When a class that corresponds with your roll is in the group, what conditions must be met in order to receive the extra bonus? In other words, must the be withing a certain range? In the same area? Etc.

[Callisto]

Re: Basic questions

1) The players will get the effect of whatever the last total roll value is to hit them, not just the individual roll.

2) The simplest answer is COR roll is for when DD rolls won't lead to any faster kills, so you want more XP per individual kill. The best example of this is high-end merit parties at 75 who kill so quickly that they can sometimes clear a camp before mobs start repopping, in this case you actually don't want to kill faster because you'd lose chain due to not having anything to kill, so you would do COR roll. It's not a weak roll per se, but usually the extra XP of just killing more mobs in a shorter amount of time from two DD rolls will come out to more XP than the % boost of Corsair's.

3) Blacklist that person. At 66+ if you shoot for TP it's acceptable to TP in Iron and WS in Steel to save a little bit of cash, but do not WS or QD in anything but Steel.

4) 5-roll rotation is almost never needed, especially in XP parties, where the tanks will generally get more out of having the extra damage from DD rolls for greater hate-holding capability then from some other roll, on top of trying to land a roll on just the tank but not the mages or DDs is just a pain in the ass, as COR does not get a Pianissimo ability like BRD does.

5) The most common roll combinations for DDs are typically 2 out of Hunter's/Chaos/Samurai, and occasionally Fighter's. 9 times out of 10 the Accuracy boost from Hunter's will have the greatest impact, even without a Ranger(good values still give a solid chunk of Acc without the job bonus), unless every melee in the party is eating sushi and there is a BRD doing Madrigal. Same can be said of Chaos, especially if there is no other buffer in the party such as a BRD doing Minuet. In a group where accuracy or attack is high Samurai is a nice substitute for those two, but when in doubt do Hunter's + Chaos.

6) Pretty sure they just have to be in the zone.

[Karinya]

Re: Basic questions

2) The simplest answer is COR roll is for when DD rolls won't lead to any faster kills, so you want more XP per individual kill. The best example of this is high-end merit parties at 75 who kill so quickly that they can sometimes clear a camp before mobs start repopping, in this case you actually don't want to kill faster because you'd lose chain due to not having anything to kill, so you would do COR roll. It's not a weak roll per se, but usually the extra XP of just killing more mobs in a shorter amount of time from two DD rolls will come out to more XP than the % boost of Corsair's.

Personally, the only time I've used it so far was in a manaburn; Wizard's would rarely have changed the number of AMs that needed to land to kill the mob, so it was just evokers + corsairs. (Luzaf's Ring is useful for this type of party.)

3) Blacklist that person. At 66+ if you shoot for TP it's acceptable to TP in Iron and WS in Steel to save a little bit of cash, but do not WS or QD in anything but Steel.

Changing from iron to steel doesn't save you any noticeable amount, you'd have to go all the way down to level 22 bullets to save an amount of gil worth saving. Otherwise you might as well just save the irons for Pulling The Strings or level sync parties in their level range.

Speaking of PTS, you should be WSing with corsair bullets, not steel, if you are using slugshot. A slugshot that hits will always do more damage than one that misses, and even with sushi, you can't take hits for granted with slugshot.

I don't have Detonator or Leaden Salute yet, so I don't know if they are worth using vs. slugshot. I have heard that bullet DMG doesn't affect Leaden Salute, so if you are using it, you might as well use cheap bullets.

Definitely agree on QD with steel, though (at least for damaging QDs, it doesn't really matter for light/dark) - QD damage depends on bullet DMG, but the bullet is not actually used up by QD (only the card is used up). So your highest DMG bullets will give you better (damaging) QD performance for no actual extra cost.

I really wish SE would release a type of bullet actually *designed* for QD, with magic acc or magic atk bonus or both, but so far, all you can do is use your highest DMG regular bullet.

4) 5-roll rotation is almost never needed, especially in XP parties, where the tanks will generally get more out of having the extra damage from DD rolls for greater hate-holding capability then from some other roll, on top of trying to land a roll on just the tank but not the mages or DDs is just a pain in the ass, as COR does not get a Pianissimo ability like BRD does.

Not only that, but in addition to having 0 seconds between rolls you also have 0 seconds to get into position for your next roll, which isn't very practical. It basically can't be done at all without merits to either shorten PR recast, lengthen duration, or both; and even when it can be done the positioning is usually difficult and the rewards not worth it.

NIN tanks do benefit a lot from ninja roll though, when you can get it on them. It's much more useful for them than a DD roll. Better evasion means less time spent casting utsusemi and less hits taken that cost them enmity and have to be healed by someone; meanwhile some of their hate comes from provoke and ninjutsu which won't be improved at all by DD rolls.

5) The most common roll combinations for DDs are typically 2 out of Hunter's/Chaos/Samurai, and occasionally Fighter's. 9 times out of 10 the Accuracy boost from Hunter's will have the greatest impact, even without a Ranger(good values still give a solid chunk of Acc without the job bonus), unless every melee in the party is eating sushi and there is a BRD doing Madrigal. Same can be said of Chaos, especially if there is no other buffer in the party such as a BRD doing Minuet. In a group where accuracy or attack is high Samurai is a nice substitute for those two, but when in doubt do Hunter's + Chaos.

It also depends somewhat on what jobs are in party - not just for what rolls are strengthened, but also for what jobs need which rolls. DNC benefits a lot from samurai roll because of their TP based mechanics; BLU gets less from chaos roll because regular attack doesn't affect blue magic damage; THF gets less from hunter's roll because their special attacks are automatic hits (ironically they also get less from rogue's roll for a similar reason), while PUP and DNC (and COR) get more because they are starting from B skill and usually need more acc; a party with several PLD, DRK, or BLU may even want to keep evoker's on the melees.

In modern merit pts the enemies are quite low level so you probably won't need hunter's. Chaos + samurai or chaos + fighter's will be often be more effective. (Remember that rolls aren't just about *your* accuracy and damage, but every physical DD - most of whom have A skill.)

[Callisto]

Re: Basic questions

In modern merit pts the enemies are quite low level so you probably won't need hunter's. Chaos + samurai or chaos + fighter's will be often be more effective. (Remember that rolls aren't just about *your* accuracy and damage, but every physical DD - most of whom have A skill.)

A lot of people even with A+ 2-hander jobs take their accuracy for granted, it takes some pretty heavy-duty gear and full combat merits to come close to capping accuracy even on birds, for your standard run-of-the-mill DDs that you're going to run across in everyday parties, especially at non-merit levels, the extra acc is almost always going to have a larger impact than something else with the exception of SAM roll consistently shaving off 1-2 swings to 100 TP, 1-handers are going to need the accuracy even more. If you're in a party full of fully meritted SAMs in Ace's/Usu feet and EBody WARs it's different, but in my experiences that almost never happens in pickup merits, and instead you get stuck with AF Feet WARs and SAMs TPing in Kirin's Osode.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Basic questions

Speaking of PTS, you should be WSing with corsair bullets, not steel, if you are using slugshot. A slugshot that hits will always do more damage than one that misses, and even with sushi, you can't take hits for granted with slugshot.

Corsair bullets are not common, expensive when they do appear and they're not easy to get considering the limits placed on the ENM they're obtained from. Waste of time, effort and gil. Plus if you've hit your accuracy cap, they're not going to bring much more to the table. If you're at Steel level, just stick to Steel.

I don't have Detonator or Leaden Salute yet, so I don't know if they are worth using vs. slugshot. I have heard that bullet DMG doesn't affect Leaden Salute, so if you are using it, you might as well use cheap bullets.

Low evasion/VT and lower mobs - Slug Shot
High evasion/THF mobs - Detonator
Enemies weak to dark element/magic - Leaden Salute.

Should be noted that Detonator is really only worthwhile if you have a martial gun and even then in most cases Slugshot will still outperform it.

I really wish SE would release a type of bullet actually *designed* for QD, with magic acc or magic atk bonus or both, but so far, all you can do is use your highest DMG regular bullet.

They keep adding bullets, but they're just raw damage bullets. I think if SE wanted to give us utility ammo like RNG has, they would have done it long ago, but then, that pretty much is what QD is for.

Also, the actual damage or accuracy of the QD magic damage isn't as important as the application of QDs. Since the secondary effect of each QD always takes effect when applied to the proper enfeebling spell, I would consider the knowledgeable application of QD more important than potential epeen damage.

[Esoa]

Re: Basic questions

3) Blacklist that person.

You guys crack me up sometimes. While you're at it, blist every person you ever xp with because chances are they didn't eat food, aren't using optimal equipment, or have some misguided notion about how their class should be played.

[Mhurron]

Re: Basic questions

/blist add esoa

[Callisto]

Re: Basic questions

You guys crack me up sometimes. While you're at it, blist every person you ever xp with because chances are they didn't eat food, aren't using optimal equipment, or have some misguided notion about how their class should be played.

Sucking at a job on your own is an individual choice, telling someone else to suck at a job who doesn't know better is different.

[hexx]

Re: Basic questions

instead you get stuck with AF Feet WARs.

And just WHAT is wrong with AF feet for WAR? Theres really only two other options that are better, dusk feet, or aurum feet, and even then i usually like double attack better >_>

On a side note, I would go with what kitten says, he knows what COR is about

[Armando]

Re: Basic questions

And just WHAT is wrong with AF feet for WAR? Theres really only two other options that are better, dusk feet, or aurum feet, and even then i usually like double attack better >_>

Either of those are superior to AF feet by a margin wide enough that it's impossible to say "eh, they're more or less the same."

What's wrong with it is that if I, being as lazy as I am and playing as infrequently as I do, can sport Dusk Feets/Hands/Legs, a WAR can do the same. Obviously someone that's just dinged into them may not have them, but any WAR that doesn't have them should be making an attempt to get them. That aside, TPing in Osode, come on.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Basic questions

You guys crack me up sometimes. While you're at it, blist every person you ever xp with because chances are they didn't eat food, aren't using optimal equipment, or have some misguided notion about how their class should be played.

Would you tell someone its OK to go from 22-75 with the same sword, axe or lance they used in Qufim? That's what people were essentially telling the COR in the OP it was OK to do. They think that there isn't wide enough a DMG between the level 22 bullets and other bullets to justify the cost.

Just so happens these people also wandered around with thier Trump Guns (AF1) after level 56. If DMG ratings didn't matter for CORs, SE wouldn't have given us a B in guns or made guns and bullets affect the base damage of Quick Draw. They also wouldn't have granted us access to a lot of the gear RNG enjoys.

Even if you're just going to /WHM it up, you're doing yourself and your party a disservice by not upgrading your guns and bullets. Some of these CORs don't even buy the elemental cards, gutting part of thier performance and support at an on-the-minute level. Even if gunplay isn't going to be the core of your damage, QD can add to a PTs damage pool, too.

But people do all this to get to 75 on the cheap, thinking they can just /WHM it up full time at 75 and there's no more expense. For the career COR, the expense never ends, not even at 75. Of all the CORs on Odin, I've only ever found about three others than I can respect. Its not really even about the gear they have or thier accomplishments, just that they've shown they know how to use the gear they have.

A level 22 bullet COR is just better of dropping COR entirely and levelling BRD. BRD isn't too terribly expensive at all. Its expenses are peanuts in contrast to COR's.

[Callisto]

Re: Basic questions

I think it's funny that you refer to steel bullets as a major expense, lol. I have pretty meager crafting levels, 62 Smithing and 51ish Alchemy, both were pretty much break even or profit to get to those points, and now every time I need bullets I hit up Mhaura, grab some steel ingots from the guild, and make several stacks for 5k/stack less than what they sell for on the AH, if I want to make a few extra stacks I can make back a decent chunk of what I spent to get the mats, on top of getting my own ammo on the cheap.

[Karinya]

Re: Basic questions

Corsair bullets are not common, expensive when they do appear and they're not easy to get considering the limits placed on the ENM they're obtained from. Waste of time, effort and gil. Plus if you've hit your accuracy cap, they're not going to bring much more to the table. If you're at Steel level, just stick to Steel.

Hit your accuracy cap for Slug Shot with a B skill? Dream on.

Anyway, you can do the ENM every 5 days, it's not hard (and not that expensive if you go on lightsday to exploit the 2716 gil trick). That gives you a stack a month or so depending on drop rate, which is not bad for something you're only going to use to WS in parties that aren't level capped below them. And you can sell extras if you get them, which helps with your other card and ammo costs.

I wouldn't necessarily suggest *buying* corsair bullets to WS with unless you're stupidly rich (although somebody must do it or I couldn't make 50k a pop off my extra pouches), but if you're ENMing for them anyway, you might as well use some IMO.

The feasibility of this somewhat depends on how often you exp COR, though. In my case it isn't that often because of endgame scheduling and RL time limitations, but if you exp several nights a week you could easily go through corsair bullets faster than you could ENM for them.

They keep adding bullets, but they're just raw damage bullets. I think if SE wanted to give us utility ammo like RNG has, they would have done it long ago, but then, that pretty much is what QD is for.

I think you're misunderstanding - I meant a bullet with stats relevant to QD such as AGI, MAcc or MAB, which you would swap in instead of steel when doing QD (and then go back to DMG bullets for shots/barrage/maybe WS), not an added effect like acid bolts etc. It could be rare/ex, even, since it wouldn't be used up by QD. (Although if it wasn't, and was available in quantity, some of the same stats might also help Leaden Salute, where raw DMG doesn't.)

Also, the actual damage or accuracy of the QD magic damage isn't as important as the application of QDs. Since the secondary effect of each QD always takes effect when applied to the proper enfeebling spell, I would consider the knowledgeable application of QD more important than potential epeen damage.

I would, too, except that (a) that presupposes an enemy that is strong enough to be worth enfeebling *and* not a colibri *and* the presence of a party member that can enfeeble *and* them actually doing so, and (b) damage isn't *just* for epeen, it also contributes to your party's kill (and therefore exp) rate. Strengthening Paralyze can save your healer MP, but that only helps if your healer's MP was relevant in the first place, which seems rather rare nowadays.

Oh, and (c) ice shot, for one, is often good for enfeebles *and* damage, so MAcc would be nice both ways and MAB couldn't hurt.

(It certainly is a good argument for putting MAcc rather than MAB on a QD-oriented Mirke alongside -QD recast, though. I had already decided on that if I end up using my ACP piece for COR for exactly that reason.)

[Nuriko]

Re: Basic questions

Either of those are superior to AF feet by a margin wide enough that it's impossible to say "eh, they're more or less the same."

What's wrong with it is that if I, being as lazy as I am and playing as infrequently as I do, can sport Dusk Feets/Hands/Legs, a WAR can do the same. Obviously someone that's just dinged into them may not have them, but any WAR that doesn't have them should be making an attempt to get them. That aside, TPing in Osode, come on.

It could be worse ... I knew somebody who was planning to TP in at least one piece of Heca, because the slow on that piece was cancelled out by the haste on other pieces, so it was ok!

... this line of reasoning didn't exactly convince me.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Basic questions

I think it's funny that you refer to steel bullets as a major expense, lol. I have pretty meager crafting levels, 62 Smithing and 51ish Alchemy, both were pretty much break even or profit to get to those points, and now every time I need bullets I hit up Mhaura, grab some steel ingots from the guild, and make several stacks for 5k/stack less than what they sell for on the AH, if I want to make a few extra stacks I can make back a decent chunk of what I spent to get the mats, on top of getting my own ammo on the cheap.

Don't have the time to craft and, unlike some people, I don't have a RNG that was just dropped in my lap with most of the endgame trimmings and only kind of play. Your calling cards tend to be ones of lesser expense.

150k a stack on odin for Steel (costs more than silvers for RNG) and 150k on Odin for Kabura may be cheaper than a while back, but there's also very little market for them on Odin.

I have a RNG and BST - not to mention a second main character - that I also maintain regularly and they're also higher expense than most jobs. If you want to brag about your cooking and alchemy. Try getting your hand the stuff to make HQ Antloin and Diremite jugs. These are hard to get by the stack normally. I can HQ Carrie, but she's not great for everything.

Bottom line: Gil's thin on my end and the last thing I want to do on such limited playtime some days is sit and craft. I don't do endgame because its not practical for me right now and I'm just a small ways oiff from making the good money BST can get me. Maybe then.

Hit your accuracy cap for Slug Shot with a B skill? Dream on.

Do you realize how fast you would go through Corsair Bullets, even if you saved them for a special occasion? They might be easier to get than GMBs and PPAs, but not by much and its only one stack a run every five days assuming you win and have time to do Pulling the Strings.

At any rate you can't really cap accuracy on Slug - its meant to be innacurate. Plus Detonator and Leaden Salute are more reliable for high end mobs.