/SCH succeeding where /WHM fails COR?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I'll be frank, I hate subbing /WHM on COR.

Not just hate it, but a Kefka sort of hate, hate, hate, hate, HATE /WHM!

The kicker is, most other jobs, I don't have a problem with /WHM at all! It is usually good, but in the case of COR, even other mage subs are usually better.

Its not that /WHM isn't useful, but rather, it just COR brings a lot of conflicts to its use. Phantom Roll in particular, along with /WHMing in melee PTs at endgame. The way buff rotations are forced for COR, its hard to enjoy using /WHM in anything but a mage PT where you can constantly replenish MP on a two-buff cycle and never have to lose a beat on cures or status cures.

Then there's gearing it for /mage use. Ugh. Most people just don't do it right. That's all I'm going to say. Balanced AGI/MP builds if you /WHM, use Quick Draw or quit COR, kthx.

Ahem.

Anyway, it seems SCH might address some of the issues I've had with subbing /WHM. /DNC has addressed the majority of issues I've had with curative subjobs, as /DNC doesn't really take much away from COR save for a few extra weaponskill opportunities, but not entirely. /SCH has some drawbacks, but it also has a ton of upsides to make up for it.

• B Skill Dark Magic for Aspir
• B Skill Enfeebling for Sleep from Addendum: Black
• Status cures from Addendum: White, sans Erase, Viruna and Stona
• Alacrity
• Penury
• Raise
• Dispel
• Regen II
• Sublimation

Sublimation and Aspir (by situation) would fill the gap presented by Phantom Roll rotations and you'd make up some MP for the times you had one or two minutes of downtime from Evokers Roll.

While a lack of Stoneskin, Blink, Reraise and Erase hurts a little, not having Viruna and Stona weren't dealbreakers to start with, you could never get Stona from any other subjob anyway. Reraise can be replaced by items, as can Blink and Stoneskin.

Two dark-based dispels from Main and Sub, light-based sleep from main and then B Skill Enfeebling for an extra sleep from /SCH sub. Regen II is awesome HP recovery.

Alacrity would let you recast those Sleeps, Aspirs, Dispel and Drains faster. Penury would keep those Cure IIIs a bit cheaper.

So it would appear the pros outweigh the cons, the best of which is not having MP downtime from Evoker's Roll being phased out or even the occasional Bust, then being able to use Penury to save more MP.

Anyway, I think this is next on my COR to-do list, especially while I'm still in the midst of my excitement for SCH as a main, Sadly, this is another subjob x2 deal for me. Foobar is 64 SCH, Kitten's SCH is level 1.

For most instanced situations, I've found /DNC to be successful where WHM typically falls short. /DNC's weakness is HNMs and gods, which pretty much goes without saying. This is where the /mage issue is forced on COR the most and I'm hoping that /SCH patches up the unsightly little problems WHM presents.

/SCH definately wouldn't be an EXP sub not even next to (ugh) /WHM, but for situations where MAB subs aren't needed, I think /SCH is going to offer a lot of fixes to the problems COR makes for /WHM and /WHM makes for COR.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: /SCH succeeding where /WHM fails COR?

COR/SCH looks OK, but I'm not too sure about landing enfeebs like Sleep on anything worthwhile without gearing for it, including the TP losing staff switching. If you're not using TP, of course, weapon swap won't matter, but how good is COR's enfeebling gear selection?

As long as you don't need Curaga, bar- spells, or MDB (ha ha?), or Stoneskin, you should be fine. (Though, the Stoneskin part is pretty iffy... I've lost count of how many times SS saved my butt from Kirin's stray Heat Breath while chasing our PLD/NIN to reapply Refresh.)

* * *

A friend who used COR/WHM as default basically leveled cooking to make juice, brought ingredients to exp parties, Yagudo Drinks to events, and splurged on sushi while bugging LS crafters for cheap ammo.

He was easy going and selfless, and managed to make his COR work for any event he was in. I'm not entirely sure if my fondness for COR/WHM is from how good the combo is, or from how much we enjoyed our COR/WHM's company. (I miss having him around. T_T )

* * *

As a RDM, if I have a COR/WHM in party, and he's using MP, I'd give him Refresh. No need to go down to "two-buff" cycle.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: /SCH succeeding where /WHM fails COR?

COR/SCH looks OK, but I'm not too sure about landing enfeebs like Sleep on anything worthwhile without gearing for it, including the TP losing staff switching. If you're not using TP, of course, weapon swap won't matter, but how good is COR's enfeebling gear selection?

As long as you don't need Curaga, bar- spells, or MDB (ha ha?), or Stoneskin, you should be fine. (Though, the Stoneskin part is pretty iffy... I've lost count of how many times SS saved my butt from Kirin's stray Heat Breath while chasing our PLD/NIN to reapply Refresh.)

You're talking to a guy that will kill himself if he uses the wrong food. So long as I have RR item, I'm willing to take any risk. My EXP is easy to get back and I LOL at any BRD, COR or RDM that gets close to delevel. I just can't fathom worrying about my own hide too much.

The goal is self-sufficiency in melee buff-dependant PTs, that's really my only intention for the sub. Since Light Arts and Dark Arts function the same way as they do on SCH main, all I really need to do is grab or borrow +skill gear from my other character for days I go /SCH. Or just buy extra.

A friend who used COR/WHM as default basically leveled cooking to make juice, brought ingredients to exp parties, Yagudo Drinks to events, and splurged on sushi while bugging LS crafters for cheap ammo.

He was easy going and selfless, and managed to make his COR work for any event he was in. I'm not entirely sure if my fondness for COR/WHM is from how good the combo is, or from how much we enjoyed our COR/WHM's company. (I miss having him around. T_T )

Had I not decided to make Foobar the primary crafter of my two characters, I might have bothered with it on Kitten. The most Kitten will level do is level Bonecraft high enough to make Demon Arrowheads, probably. Foobar is the cook. /shrug, hard to go back on that decision. I suppose I could pack some yags from a crafting spree, but otherwise probably not.

As a RDM, if I have a COR/WHM in party, and he's using MP, I'd give him Refresh. No need to go down to "two-buff" cycle.

If only you knew how rare that is that a RDM does that. Had a RDM in Limbus that actually hasted my COR/DNC, my heart jumped, it did. It doesn't happen often.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: /SCH succeeding where /WHM fails COR?

Oh, Stoneskin isn't about saving experience points--it's about being effective.

I'm useless to the party/alliance if I'm eating dirt. Effectiveness when weakened is pretty poor, too. (Refreshing the tank party when weakened is an impossible order, and acting crowd control in that state typically just gets me killed soon again--doubly weakened. x_x; )

K.O. is to be avoided unless my going down buys something important for the party/alliance. (In that case, RR up, and charge!)

[Kylen]

Re: /SCH succeeding where /WHM fails COR?

I dunno about you, but I get a ton of use out of Stoneskin, Blink, Erase, and Curaga(II) when I sub /WHM usually. While an extra source of Sleep and Dispel in addition to Quick Draw would no doubt be nice to have, I'd really be feeling the lack of those 4 spells (and to a much lesser extent Stona and Viruna) if I subbed /SCH. Reraise is nice to have as well if shit hits the fan; I know you can just use a RR item if you're doing an activity where you anticipate dying, but sometimes deaths and wipes come at the most unexpected times, and that's when having the spell on really helps.

Most of the time I have plenty of Refresh from Evoker's Roll too, either from being in an all-mage party or a mix of mages and melee like in Salvage or Nyzul (in addition to Sanction refresh and Balrahn's Ring if I'm in Nyzul/Salvage). In the case where I'm in an all-melee party, it's really not hard for me to run away from everyone and put Evoker's Roll just on just myself if I'm really running low on mp, either.

[Callisto]

Re: /SCH succeeding where /WHM fails COR?

I dunno about you, but I get a ton of use out of Stoneskin, Blink, Erase, and Curaga(II) when I sub /WHM usually. While an extra source of Sleep and Dispel in addition to Quick Draw would no doubt be nice to have, I'd really be feeling the lack of those 4 spells (and to a much lesser extent Stona and Viruna) if I subbed /SCH. Reraise is nice to have as well if shit hits the fan; I know you can just use a RR item if you're doing an activity where you anticipate dying, but sometimes deaths and wipes come at the most unexpected times, and that's when having the spell on really helps.

I do have to agree there, while not needing to use a QD charge on Dark Shot would be nice, not having Erase and to a greater extend Stoneskin would leave a gaping whole to me as /mage, I already feel the hit from no SS badly at times when I /DNC. Although I've typically been only using /RDM when I /mage for the QD boost, any fight where I'd be /mage typically hits at least one point where SS/Blink save my life, just last week I got petrified then that Blink eat a Quake II from JoFaith.

[nanatsu]

Re: /SCH succeeding where /WHM fails COR?

I dunno about you, but I get a ton of use out of Stoneskin, Blink, Erase, and Curaga(II) when I sub /WHM usually. While an extra source of Sleep and Dispel in addition to Quick Draw would no doubt be nice to have, I'd really be feeling the lack of those 4 spells (and to a much lesser extent Stona and Viruna) if I subbed /SCH.

You can't sub Stona anyway. It's lvl 39.

[Saren]

Re: /SCH succeeding where /WHM fails COR?

Depends what you are fighting and who else is in your group really, like everything. I can see it being great in certain situations but I wouldn't say it was going to be generally more useful than /whm.

Like Itazura said, Stoneskin is about avoiding being dead or weak becuase you are less useful weak not because anyone is worried about exp loss. Cor probably doesn't have quite the problem most jobs do from being weak becuase you aren't relying on hp or mp for your abilities but you are still probably going to have to be in AoE range to buff which is going to be very dangerous weakened when you have no stoneskin. Stoneskin also helps a lot with keeping Sublimation on for the maximum possible charge especially if you have to run into AoE range to buff.

Having no erase is a big loss. Speaking as a whm if you are going to sub mage to help out with status cures and we might need erase I would prefer a cor went /whm over /sch. Mostly this is because erase tends to be my most used status cure and it's one of the few with a fairly long recast time (cursna being the other which you also don't get access to /sch). I can paralyna a whole party even without divine seal pretty fast, doing the same with erase is going to be very slow (damn divine seal recast time). Not that you would need to erase a whole party often but even 3-4 takes a long time. People who are /whm and use their erase have my eternal gratitude.

The other thing about scholar too is if you are using it to dispel and to status cure, you are probably going to be using all your charges on addendum for spell access and in practice it's not terribly fast. My CoP static had a scholar and he was great but response time can be a problem if it involves switching arts/addendum. It was usually much more efficient to have him buff everyone at the start then switch to Dark arts and DD/dispel unless things got really bad and have someone else act as main back up healer.

[Callisto]

Re: /SCH succeeding where /WHM fails COR?

Cor probably doesn't have quite the problem most jobs do from being weak becuase you aren't relying on hp or mp for your abilities but you are still probably going to have to be in AoE range to buff which is going to be very dangerous weakened when you have no stoneskin.

One thing that should be noted which I learned the hard way, if you do die again while weakened, Quick Draw does get hit with the 'double-weakness' magic damage nerf, so you're stuck with 0 damage QDs for 5 minutes, which pretty much sucks ass.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: /SCH succeeding where /WHM fails COR?

Reraise items are vastly more efficient in pinch situations. Saves you the time of casting RR and the MP cost of using it.

[Kylen]

Re: /SCH succeeding where /WHM fails COR?

Reraise items are vastly more efficient in pinch situations. Saves you the time of casting RR and the MP cost of using it.

Only if you're wearing the RR item full-time (at the expense of another piece of useful gear); otherwise you have to wait for the /equip delay before using it and that may not be enough time before you die in a full-wipe situation.

Anyway, I'm talking about situations where you'd be putting RR up beforehand as a precaution. With /WHM, there's really no reason not to have RR up at all times before you start any event, regardless of how easy the event is and how unlikely you think dying may be. With RR items, you'd only likely use a charge if you were about to do something where you knew dying was fairly likely, unless you like spending lots of gil.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: /SCH succeeding where /WHM fails COR?

Humor me, if you're /WHM, what more "useful" piece of gear is there than RR hairpin (gives MP) and reraise earring for thier respective slots? A lot of emphasis drop off from Quick Draw under /WHM, but you only need AGI to land it, so there's really no need for MAB gear.

If I have RR up before and event with /WHM, you can have it up with an item, too. I don't fret over spending gil, but then, I'm not a level 22 bullet COR.

[Kylen]

Re: /SCH succeeding where /WHM fails COR?

Humor me, if you're /WHM, what more "useful" piece of gear is there than RR hairpin (gives MP) and reraise earring for thier respective slots?

Sure, that's not too hard.

Head: W.Turban (melee, more mp + Haste), AF Hat (Slug Shot, /ra, Quick Draw)
Ear: Fenrir's/Triumph Earring (Slug Shot), Suppa/Brutal (melee), Drone/Moldy/Novio (Quick Draw)

A lot of emphasis drop off from Quick Draw under /WHM, but you only need AGI to land it, so there's really no need for MAB gear.

This statement makes no sense whatsoever. Why would you not care about maximizing Quick Draw damage as /WHM? Have you ever fight Ouryu or a Chariot boss as COR? /WHM shines for those, and Quick Draw deals nice damage to those bosses as well.

You seem to be trying to pigeonhole /WHM as a backup-curing only subjob where you must wear all +mp gear and completely forget about dealing any sort of damage via melee, Slug Shot/Detonator, or Quick Draw. If you really think /WHM can only work like this, you're severely shortchanging yourself and missing out on a lot of COR's potential.

If I have RR up before and event with /WHM, you can have it up with an item, too. I don't fret over spending gil, but then, I'm not a level 22 bullet COR.

I know that it's possible to use a RR item before every single thing you do as COR, but do you really do that? You seem to be missing the point of my previous post.

Honestly, it seems like you're arguing this just for the sake of being stubborn, dude.

[Callisto]

Re: /SCH succeeding where /WHM fails COR?

This statement makes no sense whatsoever. Why would you not care about maximizing Quick Draw damage as /WHM? Have you ever fight Ouryu or a Chariot boss as COR? /WHM shines for those, and Quick Draw deals nice damage to those bosses as well.

I really need to agree there...there's absolutely no reason you should just forget about maximizing QD's damage, especially /mage, when that becomes an even larger chunk of damage relative to your WS output. Without any attack buffs I'm typically hitting 250~ Slugs and 300-400+ QDs as /mage on larger endgame mobs as /RDM, I'm not giving that up for anything, especially considering that you're going to have 2-6/tick refresh in many cases there's no reason to swap out of MP pieces into QD pieces, especially with a Blue Cotehardie and Uggly Pendant in your QD set, you won't even be killing that much MP to change into a full-on QD set.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: /SCH succeeding where /WHM fails COR?

Sure, that's not too hard.

Head: W.Turban (melee, more mp + Haste), AF Hat (Slug Shot, /ra, Quick Draw)
Ear: Fenrir's/Triumph Earring (Slug Shot), Suppa/Brutal (melee), Drone/Moldy/Novio (Quick Draw)

Have we already forgotten what the discussion is here?

/WHM vs. /SCH. We're not even talking about melee, so by default, melee gear isn't up for discussion as being better than a RR item. If we're /mage, we're probably not meleeing much. If you are, something's wrong and I can't fault your allies for it, only you for not recognizing the situation. QD is the only DD at that point.

And, right, Novio - because every linkshell is going to put COR at the top of the list for one.

This statement makes no sense whatsoever. Why would you not care about maximizing Quick Draw damage as /WHM? Have you ever fight Ouryu or a Chariot boss as COR? /WHM shines for those, and Quick Draw deals nice damage to those bosses as well.

Really, go back and read the whole OP, you might actually get a better idea of what it is I'm saying. Everything I've read in your replies shows me you're not really reading my posts at all.

What is COR/WHM going to do for uncapped Ouryu and Salvage bosses that SCH main, WHM main and anyone else /WHM can't do already do better without and without conflict? You can't tell me you're actually meleeing these things and staying fine on MP - if you are, then you're bullshitting.

You seem to be trying to pigeonhole /WHM as a backup-curing only subjob where you must wear all +mp gear and completely forget about dealing any sort of damage via melee, Slug Shot/Detonator, or Quick Draw. If you really think /WHM can only work like this, you're severely shortchanging yourself and missing out on a lot of COR's potential.

Kindly stop putting words in my mouth.

Clearly, you've not read many of my posts here. I don't look to /WHM as a curebot - I never have. Quite the opposite. I just don't see what is so awesome about /WHM that's better than /SCH - I have two characters with /WHM and one that's SCH main. All I see on your "con" list are luxuries that can be replaced by items and duties that are already covered better by other jobs.

I'll take self-suffiency in a heartbeat. Items didn't stop being useful once you beat Maat and finished CoPs. If you want to see items as Inventory +1, I can't help you there, I level jobs by compatibility, so my inventory doesn't max out much.

And you can't seriously tell me you use melee gear as /WHM outside of farming. If there is a situation where I can melee/WS as a COR and still be full support - /DNC is vastly better for the cure/status cure/melee outlet. Best of all, I don't have to waste slots for MP. /WHM's ship has sailed if I can play full support with a melee subjob, /WHMs only use after that is for situations it is preferred that I don't melee. If I can't TP, /DNC is useless. By the same token, if I'm in a situation where I can't get MP back fast enough, so is /WHM.

As for Quick Draw, if it becomes a high priority, we're not talking about melee subs, WHM or SCH - we start talking about RDM, BLU and BLM. And what's the typical rationale I've heard from you regarding the use of these when I read your posts elsewhere?

"I usually use /RDM or /BLM because my LS has enough WHMs and /WHMs on-hand."

I believe it was something to that effect.

So, what happened to those situations? LS member fallout? Seemed you had the luxury before to sub things not /WHM.

Now, funny that none of these subjobs have status cures or erase. BLU is the only one with a AoE Cure, RDM can cure Alliance members outside of PT and Dispel, Both have defensive options. Both have MAB. /BLM doesn't have much of anything useful, just a higher MAB, so BLM is total luxury sub.

Now if you want to downplay /SCH for a secondary Dispel, you can do so in the context of /RDM - as it has the dispel and the defensive buffs you want, along with MAB to boot. If you want to talk about getting the most out of QD accuracy, then we're talking about /BLU and look to its defensive buffs and AoE cures as the pros.

But if we're talking about it from a Cure/Status cure/Raise standpoint, if you're not often in harm's way and definately not meleeing - then there is very little difference between /WHM and /SCH save for one very signifigant one.

/SCH is more efficent about MP.

That's all I'm really saying here. If all I'm doing is status cures, cures and quick draws in a situation where my melee is not needed, I might as well get more MP back to my subjob while I'm at it.

The very fact that you assumed I just stopped using Quick Draw and AGI/MAB gear the moment I go /WHM I find somewhat insulting.