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Anyone else getting mass misses on Light and Dark Shot?

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  • #16
    Re: Anyone else getting mass misses on Light and Dark Shot?

    I'm pretty sure Light Shot has tiered resists; you have partial resists (which read as "Shadowbind" landing, but with varying durations) and a full-resist, which reads as a miss. You will never get the message that Light Shot (or Dark Shot) is resisted, which pretty much solves the whole "resist" vs. "miss" debate. You will see one of three things:

    1) success ("is asleep"/"effect wears off")
    2) full resist ("miss")
    3) effect is not applicable at this time ("no effect")

    Examples of 3) would be if the mob is already asleep, if there is no effect to dispel, or if Magic Shield is up. If Magic Shield is up, then even the direct damage QDs will display the "no effect" message.

    I am unsure how miss/no effect message affect the debuff-enhancement properties of QD. One Ballista test would be to have cast Bio on an unbuffed target, then use Dark Shot on it. You would get the "no effect" message, but I believe Bio would still be enhanced.

    As to the OP... my experiences have been diametrically opposed to yours. I have been shocked at the amazing accuracy of Light Shot. With a rather mediocre 76+23 AGI, I didn't miss a single Light Shot over the space of 3+ hours against trolls (including troll PLDs, which have Resist Sleep). It was only when I started ditching most of my AGI gear (I went down to +9ish) that I missed one Light Shot against a troll DRK. Again, with around +15 AGI, I missed one Light Shot against a Mamool Ja Pikeman... I bumped it back up to +25ish and didn't miss again.

    At this point, I've fired several hundred Light Shots in both Mt. Zhayolm and Thickets, and have missed a total of two (both when I was essentially ignoring AGI). Against trolls in particular, the RDMs and BLM I was partied with were resisted much more often than that. It was happening frequently enough that I stopped screenshotting it.

    Centurio X-I 1/1 - Celphie 1/1 - Deadly Dodo 0/2 - Doppleganger Dio 0/1 - Jaggedy-eared Jack 0/7 - Joo Duzu the Whirlwind 1/1 - Leaping Lizzy 2/16 - Mimas 0/1 - Odqan 1/9 - Orcish Wallbreacher 0/1 - Ose 1/3 - Sagittarius X-XIII 1/1 - Serpopard Ishtar 3/6 - Silk Caterpillar 1/2 - Tom Tit Tat 0/2 - Trickster Kinetix 0/2 - Valkurm Emperor 6/10 - Wyvernpoacher Drachlox 1/1

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    • #17
      Re: Anyone else getting mass misses on Light and Dark Shot?

      Yeah, after a lot of other zones and PTs, its pretty much just that resists are mislabled, I objected to Icemage's initial analysis because, well, to my knowledge, he's not a COR.

      Haven't gone against the Trolls in Mount Z, but in all other cases, its pretty much as Dan has said and my AGI build in those scenarios was pretty much the same as his, so peacemaker with all that other gear should be satisfactory. Once I get 72 or 73, Light Shot should be pretty solid against anything in Mire, but I expect little will change with Dark Shot there.

      I did have an instance with a DC imp the other day when i was doing ToA13 in Mire for a friend, I aggroed and we pulled the shade and the imp into a nearby tunnel. I Light Shot the imp and it stayed slept for about 1min 20seconds, give or take. I do know that QD was back up before it woke. Didn't have a Light Staff on me, either.

      I do wonder if 25-30 AGI on top of your natural base will be adequate for most situations. I know I've seen some CORs parading around in rather excessive AGI builds lately. Given what I had to deal with on Imps in Mire, I doubt that 40+ AGI in gear would change all that much in any given situations.

      And perhaps this is the old BRD in me talking, but I'm kinda curious to see how Wind Staff works versus Light Staff with Light Shot. Lullaby for BRD was always most effective with Light Staff and Mary's Horn as opposed to Light Staff with Nursemaid's Harp, which saw more resists. Seemed like wind instruments played a role there and AGI's Element is Wind. Worth a test, I guess.
      Last edited by Omgwtfbbqkitten; 12-26-2006, 03:00 AM.

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      • #18
        Re: Anyone else getting mass misses on Light and Dark Shot?

        Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
        Yeah, after a lot of other zones and PTs, its pretty much just that resists are mislabled, I objected to Icemage's initial analysis because, well, to my knowledge, he's not a COR.
        You shouldn't judge the merit of an argument by job levels. Regardless of what jobs Icemage has leveled, he knows what he's talking about. There are plenty of people that have jobs leveled to 75 and still don't understand how their job really works, and vice versa.

        And perhaps this is the old BRD in me talking, but I'm kinda curious to see how Wind Staff works versus Light Staff with Light Shot. Lullaby for BRD was always most effective with Light Staff and Mary's Horn as opposed to Light Staff with Nursemaid's Harp, which saw more resists. Seemed like wind instruments played a role there and AGI's Element is Wind. Worth a test, I guess.
        I don't think Light Staff affects Light Shot. Based on some preliminary tests, I don't see any marked increase in duration or accuracy. If I were to wield a staff, I'd probably take Wind Staff for the AGI.

        Centurio X-I 1/1 - Celphie 1/1 - Deadly Dodo 0/2 - Doppleganger Dio 0/1 - Jaggedy-eared Jack 0/7 - Joo Duzu the Whirlwind 1/1 - Leaping Lizzy 2/16 - Mimas 0/1 - Odqan 1/9 - Orcish Wallbreacher 0/1 - Ose 1/3 - Sagittarius X-XIII 1/1 - Serpopard Ishtar 3/6 - Silk Caterpillar 1/2 - Tom Tit Tat 0/2 - Trickster Kinetix 0/2 - Valkurm Emperor 6/10 - Wyvernpoacher Drachlox 1/1

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        • #19
          Re: Anyone else getting mass misses on Light and Dark Shot?

          I'd suggest maybe experimenting on some other monsters somewhere else to see if you still have the same problem. A lot of people have suggested that it could be because of the specific enemies you used light/dark shot on, and rather than looking into that, it seems that you're dismissing the idea out of hand. You said yourself that you were doing fine with dark shot in beseiged. Maybe join a skill up PT or help somebody hunt an AF coffer key somewhere or something.

          Also, keep in mind that SE often makes mistakes. It's entirely possible that, in making the various adjustments to COR, they inadvertently adjusted something that created problems. It wouldn't be the first time something like that happened. I wouldn't immediately take a defensive stance and assume that they're out to destroy CORs or dangle a carrot in front of your nose with no real intention of following through. They might have made an error they intend to address in a future patch, or there might be other modifiers besides just AGI.
          召75|吟75|黒75|赤75|戦72|白60|獣40|忍37| 暗37|シ37|ナ32|侍30|モ30|竜21|青14||か8| 狩7|コ7
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          • #20
            Re: Anyone else getting mass misses on Light and Dark Shot?

            Originally posted by Spider-Dan View Post
            You shouldn't judge the merit of an argument by job levels. Regardless of what jobs Icemage has leveled, he knows what he's talking about. There are plenty of people that have jobs leveled to 75 and still don't understand how their job really works, and vice versa.
            He couldn't have known for certain within the first day of the update that "misses" were resists, nor could anyone until there had been more more data from others in varied instances. Just because we have data that supports his claim now doesn't mean he really knew if that was the case when he made the statement, that's all I was pointing out.


            I don't think Light Staff affects Light Shot. Based on some preliminary tests, I don't see any marked increase in duration or accuracy. If I were to wield a staff, I'd probably take Wind Staff for the AGI.
            I doubt Light Staff would affect duration, it doesn't even do that for Lullaby. But but staves do lower resists and that has been proven. I'm just curious to see if Wind Staff is more effective for Light Shot than Light Staff. QD is magical whether its counted by the system as magic or not.

            There was a time when BRDs said, "You can never have enough CHR" and this was found to be untrue over the years, half your natural base CHR in gear is adequate. In time, Light Staff was found to be more effective than Monster Signa. One would think that since Nursemaid's Harp gives a +2 bonus to Lullaby that it would be more effective than Mary's Horn, but its been proven that that was not the case - Mary's Horn is better.

            So with those notions disproven on that end, I'm simply curious to find out the real satisfactory level of AGI (25-30 seems close, but that could my mithra AGI talking) and what stave affects which shots the best.

            I know it sound reasonable just to stick with Wind Staff because SE says AGI affects QD, but we already knew before this update that many things affected QD outside of that stat. I get more damage and fewer resists on Wind Shot with Wind Staff and the same is true with Fire Staff and Fire Shot - so there's something to the elemental bonuses on those staves.

            They might have made an error they intend to address in a future patch, or there might be other modifiers besides just AGI.
            Other existing modifiers are known. Bullet DMG and Magic Attack already had influence on QD, as do staves to raise damage and lower resists.
            Last edited by Omgwtfbbqkitten; 12-27-2006, 04:57 AM.

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            • #21
              Re: Anyone else getting mass misses on Light and Dark Shot?

              Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
              He couldn't have known for certain within the first day of the update that "misses" were resists, nor could anyone until there had been more more data from others in varied instances. Just because we have data that supports his claim now doesn't mean he really knew if that was the case when he made the statement, that's all I was pointing out.
              It seemed pretty open-and-shut to me from the first day. No one reported any resists, only misses. Given the existing nature of "Quick Draw Accuracy" merits pre-update (which only affected resist rate), miss = resist was the logical conclusion; one that was proven to be true.

              None of the above has anything to do with my having leveled COR to 75, or Icemage's lack of same. So job levels shouldn't even come into the discussion.

              I doubt Light Staff would affect duration, it doesn't even do that for Lullaby. But but staves do lower resists and that has been proven.
              Staves do lower resists for spells. They increase damage for some magical attacks (e.g. holy bolt effect, Quick Draw) but there is no evidence that they reduce resists on those. The max duration for Light Shot appears to be around 90 seconds, and (so far) it seems like AGI (and merits, of course) is the only thing that increases your chance of getting a successful, full duration sleep.
              Last edited by Spider-Dan; 12-27-2006, 05:28 AM.

              Centurio X-I 1/1 - Celphie 1/1 - Deadly Dodo 0/2 - Doppleganger Dio 0/1 - Jaggedy-eared Jack 0/7 - Joo Duzu the Whirlwind 1/1 - Leaping Lizzy 2/16 - Mimas 0/1 - Odqan 1/9 - Orcish Wallbreacher 0/1 - Ose 1/3 - Sagittarius X-XIII 1/1 - Serpopard Ishtar 3/6 - Silk Caterpillar 1/2 - Tom Tit Tat 0/2 - Trickster Kinetix 0/2 - Valkurm Emperor 6/10 - Wyvernpoacher Drachlox 1/1

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              • #22
                Re: Anyone else getting mass misses on Light and Dark Shot?

                Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                If SE truely wants us to fill the shoes of a RDM or BRD in the support role of a PT, they need to go all the way with it, not halfway. There would be nothing overpowered about giving us a comprable recasts for Dark Shot and Light Shot, it would help us perform our role better in PT.
                Do they want to, though? If they wanted BRD to be RDM, they would have given Finale and Dispel the same recast timer and element, right? It could be they very well intended to make COR distinct from RDM and BRD.

                Less accurate dispel and sleep doesn't make COR a weaker version of RDM or BRD, however. Like NIN is a less secure tank than PLD, but has much better damage output, COR is a less well rounded support job with very nice offensive potential.

                Trade-off's like that help to keep the game blanced, and is a good thing. ^_^

                I recently exp'ed on RDM with another RDM in one party, and with a BRD in another. It was frustating working with another RDM--we both want to do the same things, and kinda just get in each other's way. In contrast, BRD + RDM was far more compatible--even on dispel (most of the time), since the Bard was busy pulling and tend to be away from camp.

                Last thing I'd want is to make BRD more like RDM, RDM more like BRD, or COR more like either one. More of the same is very boring and/or annoying. <_<

                * * *

                Well, there is one good thing about working with another RDM; I had less stuff to do. With BRD (or COR, if I ever get to party with one) in my party, I would have more MP and less overlap in duty--Bard landing Eulergy doesn't excuse me from castiing Slow, for example. It's much more tiring and stressful partying with BRD... @_@
                Bamboo shadows sweep the stars,
                yet not a mote of dust is stirred;
                Moonlight pierces the depths of the pond,
                leaving no trace in the water.

                - Mugaku

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                • #23
                  Re: Anyone else getting mass misses on Light and Dark Shot?

                  That's not what Bbq was getting at. When you build a party, you have a slot for support. It starts at 32 when both BRD and RDM get Dispel type abilities. Sure, RDM has the better of the 2, due to it's lower recast + Fast Cast. But then, BRDs already have Ballad I and many other toys. They're not homogenous, but they perform many of the same functions. You need one or the other, but not both. Eventually, this evolves more into "Refresher" jobs, and they continue to fill the same role.

                  Everyone wanted a new Refresh job so that it would be easier to build parties. But with Corsair, every Corsair I know is like "We need a Rdm or a Brd." They're not filling the same role because they can't, entirely. Obviously, Cor + Brd + Rdm parties are gonna be loved by everyone; but a standard party should be able to function with say... whm + cor + blm backline just as well as whm + brd + blm.

                  As a sidenote, though, BLUs have 3 or 4 Dispel timers now. Why aren't CORs everywhere static'ing with BLUs to gain Refresh + Dispel? Oh, and BLU can have an AoE sleep slotted for emergencies too.
                  "And if he left off dreaming about you, where do you suppose you'd be?"

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                  • #24
                    Re: Anyone else getting mass misses on Light and Dark Shot?

                    I rarely seen BLU dispel xp mob. How is the resist rate of Blue Magic's dispel? At least I never seen BLU cast magic with elemental staff =P

                    COR + BLU should be able to cover dispel, debuff, buff, refresh and minor healing.
                    COR+BLU+BRD, or COR+BLU+SMN, or COR+BLU+RDM, or COR+BLU+WHM, should be able to make a solid backline. However, with the current generation of BLU that favors frontline DD, I doubt they are prepare for those kind of setup in pick-up parties.
                    Server: Quetzalcoatl
                    Race: Hume Rank 7
                    75 PLD, 75 SAM, 75 WAR, 75 NIN, 75 MNK, 65 BLU

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                    • #25
                      Re: Anyone else getting mass misses on Light and Dark Shot?

                      their M. Accuracy seems to be pretty good. When it first came out, Geist Wall was horrendous but my BLU friend (who talks about BLU non-stop, btw so I think I get a clue every once in a while) says it was improved significantly. Also, the other Dispels they have are also quite effective (one of them steals the buff for themselves, even). But of course, you have to make sure your BLU understands that's his duty and has it slotted. If he's having trouble, slot 2 Dispels.

                      As for Frontline BLU generation: what the hell's the point in playing BLU if all you wanna do is DD? Versatility is what makes them so (overly) powerful, ignoring it makes them an MP-based Warrior. Whoopdee freakin' doo.

                      So yeah, /kick all BLUs that refuse to cooperate and let's see how Cor + Blu works.
                      "And if he left off dreaming about you, where do you suppose you'd be?"

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                      • #26
                        Re: Anyone else getting mass misses on Light and Dark Shot?

                        Originally posted by Spider-Dan
                        Blah, blah, tangent, blah, yak, yadda, blah, yak
                        He guessed, you guessed. And the guess was right, but it wasn't tested fact on day one, so drop the inane tangent commentary. I conceded misses were resists long ago, so I don't know why you're still beating a dead horse.

                        Quick Draw is magic. Magic sees resists, staves affect the damage just like they do with spells, so it stands to reason they would do the same for resists on QD as they do with spells.

                        And again, "You can never have enough CHR" was debunked, so I'm not gonna simply assume merits and AGI are the only guiding factors in lowering QD resists. Sadly, having merits or a decent AGI build at 70-75 probably isn't the best way to test staves out, a COR at 51-68 (where most things are still IT) would yeild more effective test results for staves. If there's someone of those levels willing to do the tests, I'd love to see the results.

                        As for as commenting on jobs you don't play, I'll leave you with this old journalistic adage:

                        "Write what you know."

                        Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
                        Do they want to, though? If they wanted BRD to be RDM, they would have given Finale and Dispel the same recast timer and element, right? It could be they very well intended to make COR distinct from RDM and BRD.

                        Less accurate dispel and sleep doesn't make COR a weaker version of RDM or BRD, however. Like NIN is a less secure tank than PLD, but has much better damage output, COR is a less well rounded support job with very nice offensive potential.

                        Trade-off's like that help to keep the game blanced, and is a good thing. ^_^
                        Said it before, I'll say it again: Red Mage, Bard and Corsair do not compete for support slot - its not like any are starved for invites - so "balance" is a rather weak defense for lazy game design. But if the intention is to bring us COR closer to those jobs in terms of PT support, SE needs to finish the job because they have still left it unfinished in that intention.

                        COR is best with RDM or BRD, but we do get called on for sole-support with a WHM or SMN at times. To make us a better sole-support role, separating Light and Dark Shot from the other QDs and giving L&D Shots thier own timers would benefit COR in a support role.

                        It baffles me that prior to this update, SE freed SMN from a similar issue by dividing the Blood Pacts into attack and support BPs rather than restrict them to the same Blood Pact ability, yet they repeat SMN's original issue with Quick Draw simply by adding Dispel and Sleep under six other elemental abilities. Repeating the same stupid mistake is not something I consider balanced.

                        At the end of the day, COR can and will be invited to play the solo support class in a PT with a WHM or SMN, so being forced to constantly. You may PT with them as RDM often, but I've had plenty of PTs where I was the only job capable of refresh (pure hell with PLD, BLU or DRK in PT, those guys never sit still).

                        Conversely, as RDM, BRD and COR: Just because you're playing with another support class doesn't mean that PT is instantly gravy EXP. I've had just as many of those that sucked as I did awesome ones. Those BRD/NINs in particular are 80 percent trash. I've rarely had a good one.
                        Last edited by Omgwtfbbqkitten; 12-28-2006, 05:10 AM.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Anyone else getting mass misses on Light and Dark Shot?

                          Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                          He guessed, you guessed. And the guess was right, but it wasn't tested fact on day one, so drop the inane tangent commentary.
                          I suppose if you completely ignore all the reasoned evidence that points to the conclusion we arrived at, yeah, it's "guessing."

                          Quick Draw is magic. Magic sees resists, staves affect the damage just like they do with spells, so it stands to reason they would do the same for resists on QD as they do with spells.
                          Holy bolt effect is also magic, yet Light Staff doesn't increase holy effect "accuracy" (but does increase its damage).

                          And again, "You can never have enough CHR" was debunked, so I'm not gonna simply assume merits and AGI are the only guiding factors in lowering QD resists.
                          I don't see the relevance of CHR in this discussion, at all. QD is a magical JA, not a spell. There is a litany of reasons why QD is nothing like bard songs.

                          As for as commenting on jobs you don't play, I'll leave you with this old journalistic adage:
                          "Write what you know."
                          That certainly doesn't seem to have stopped you from commenting on COR's role at endgame/meripo for the last few months. It seems to me that another adage would apply: "Practice what you preach."

                          It baffles me that prior to this update, SE freed SMN from a similar issue by dividing the Blood Pacts into attack and support BPs rather than restrict them to the same Blood Pact ability, yet they repeat SMN's original issue with Quick Draw simply by adding Dispel and Sleep under six other elemental abilities. Repeating the same stupid mistake is not something I consider balanced.
                          This line of complaint has no merit whatsoever when you consider that Squenix cut QD's recast down to a third of what it was before.

                          If SMNs had the following choice:

                          a) Keep BPs as they are now (post-10/18)
                          b) Have BP:Rage and BP:Ward combined back into a single pet command, but lower that command's recast to 20 seconds

                          ...which do you think they would pick?

                          Centurio X-I 1/1 - Celphie 1/1 - Deadly Dodo 0/2 - Doppleganger Dio 0/1 - Jaggedy-eared Jack 0/7 - Joo Duzu the Whirlwind 1/1 - Leaping Lizzy 2/16 - Mimas 0/1 - Odqan 1/9 - Orcish Wallbreacher 0/1 - Ose 1/3 - Sagittarius X-XIII 1/1 - Serpopard Ishtar 3/6 - Silk Caterpillar 1/2 - Tom Tit Tat 0/2 - Trickster Kinetix 0/2 - Valkurm Emperor 6/10 - Wyvernpoacher Drachlox 1/1

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                          • #28
                            Re: Anyone else getting mass misses on Light and Dark Shot?

                            Actually, I did guess, but it was an educated one. While I don't have COR levelled (at all), I did spend 3 hours meriting on the first night of the update with a 75 COR and noticed exactly what we've been talking about; no resists, very occasional misses. My conclusions came out of a conversation I had with the COR (who's in my LS) originally because I asked how he was casting Shadowbind with Sleep effect, and he mentioned it was Light Shot, which then went into a discussion about its effect and accuracy.


                            Icemage

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                            • #29
                              Re: Anyone else getting mass misses on Light and Dark Shot?

                              I agree that the text of these QDs is quite stupid. It's as magical as a magic based WS, which doesn't miss either. It should say it's resisted, just like sleep and dispel do. As it's labeled "miss" this does make you think that it also fails to give the effect of enhancing Bio (and any other dark or light based debuff that I'm not aware exists). Even if the other elemental QDs have their damage resisted to shit, they still give their effect, no? So little testing done...

                              Btw, my Corsair isn't unlocked. Also, the only mage/support jobs I've played, I leveled them solo. And my RNG is level 1 too.

                              Still, I know the importance of debuffing mobs and hasting tanks better than most WHMs/RDMs...
                              "And if he left off dreaming about you, where do you suppose you'd be?"

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                              • #30
                                Re: Anyone else getting mass misses on Light and Dark Shot?

                                Originally posted by Lmnop View Post
                                If he's having trouble, slot 2 Dispels.
                                As for Frontline BLU generation: what the hell's the point in playing BLU if all you wanna do is DD? Versatility is what makes them so (overly) powerful, ignoring it makes them an MP-based Warrior. Whoopdee freakin' doo.
                                Because it's fun, no? I a horrible player can say that any blu can debuff(going to be set anyway) and still DD decent.

                                Blank Gaze that was just added is real nice. Light dispel that only works face to face. Was able to dispel Xototl at level 62.

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