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Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

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  • Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

    When I look over the jobs I enjoy, practically all of them require some constant need for attention and involvement. They have lots of job abilities or spells to use and keep an eye out for.

    But I feel some jobs are still lacking in that regard.

    While I feel SAM is kinda slow starting out for about the first 35 levels, it does pick up after that point and seems to get rather interesting. So once you get over that little hump at through the 50s and 60s especially, it doesn't seem lacking in activity.

    MNK seems like a different story. A lot of JAs just kinda fall the to the wayside and Footwork takes MNK from a job that just hits stuff to a job that might kick things a little more. When MNK gets merits it seems to get more interesting, but I just can't help but find it dull otherwise. Seems like the job's focus is more on gear than player skill, not that getting that gear doesn't take some saavy, because it honestly does. Still, once you have the gear, its almost too straightforward.

    SE did say something about MNKs getting tank-ish gear, though, so maybe they're looking at adding more.

    WHM is the #1 healer of the game, but SCH has kinda come in and stolen the show from WHM and BLM alike. Repose definately gets WHM a little more activity, but it still does feel like they could be doing something more than just healing and sleeping things.

    SMN doesn't really lack activity, but compelling reasons to keep out thier avatars. Personally, I'd like to see them get some unique buffs that distinquish them from BRD, COR and SCH since all of those have stronger buffs with better durations or power. More physical pact options are nice. Hopeful these new avatars, whatever they are, will add some needed variety.

    COR is much like BRD in that it has plenty to do. Giving us something like Pianissimo wouldn't be practical due to the nature of Phantom Roll, but I would like to see something like another tier of Quick Draw, perhaps instead of enhancing an existing enfeeble on a mob, it could boost and existing magical buff cast on an ally? Like I said, it has plenty to do, but just tossing that out there.

    Some have complained that NIN needs an update. I think it could use some kind of job ability, but I'm at a loss for what it would be and why they would need it.

    RDM is already very, very busy. Seems like tier 2 enspells are coming. Wait and see.

    SCH and DNC are already very active roles and merits aren't out yet. Wait and see.

    BLU is in the same boat as RDM, plenty to do. Just got new spells, too.

    PUP seems well enough on activity. It would be amusing to be able to quest for a Cardian Automation, though. Maybe a quest with Zonpa-Zippa is in order.

    Seems like SE isn't done with WAR or other jobs in regards to tank-like abilities. Here's an area that could really go anywhere. Who knows what we'll get here. I don't know if we really need a new tank job, I don't think that would change as much as coverting old jobs to do tank-like things.

    Anyway, your thoughts?

    And please, no ranting on what Bahamut should really be like

  • #2
    Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

    Great Scot! (Yes?) How did I not catch this thread before?!

    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
    WHM is the #1 healer of the game, but SCH has kinda come in and stolen the show from WHM and BLM alike. Repose definately gets WHM a little more activity, but it still does feel like they could be doing something more than just healing and sleeping things.
    As far as WHM and SCH go, instead of stealing from each other, they need to go right ahead and steal the healing spotlight back from RDM. Many WHMs complain about being the only job with MP that does not have a native method of restoring it, and you just said WHM needs more to do than healing and sleeping things, so, wait for it . . . Refresh @ 41. WHMs already get Haste at the same level RDMs get Haste and SMNs get Hastega, so, in an era where RDM are preferred healers to WHMs, please, do tell, why the heck not?

    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
    SMN doesn't really lack activity, but compelling reasons to keep out thier avatars. Personally, I'd like to see them get some unique buffs that distinquish them from BRD, COR and SCH since all of those have stronger buffs with better durations or power. More physical pact options are nice. Hopeful these new avatars, whatever they are, will add some needed variety.
    Summoner, oh Good Lord, where do I begin . . . the entire situation can be summed up with the fact that the only native magic a Summoner actually gets is calling the avatars themselves. Everything they do from then on is one of two Pet Abilities, each on a one minute timer, and each costing a disastrous amount of MP for the result, even with SMN's massive MP pools, which, by the way, they're using to support the pet (and are thus the only pet job that suffers thusly!). Even after the Pet Abilities were changed to say "oh, hey, we're going to help your Summoning Magic Skill some" (because, remember, the only actual magic they were doing was summoning the avatars themselves), you still see people sitting outside of cites spamming and dismissing Carbuncle, as well as any other avatars/spirits the person may have on them. Add to the fact that, if you're going to have a decent arsenal of Summons and gear, you're likely going to already have another job at 75.

    A total revamp of the entire thing needs to be done, and can be accomplished through two multi-faceted ways: first off, make Blood Pacts Magic as opposed to Pet Abilities. This will let the Summoner themselves actually be worth something, as their own stats will be used for determining how effective a pact can be. Fun Fact: Summoners have both the second highest MND and second highest INT in the game, but both those stats are absolutely worthless to a current Summoner's native abilities. The solution is obvious: MND-based Wards and INT-based Rages, that, since they would also be magic, are also calculated by the Summoning Magic Skill. And no more of this "Skill over cap" stuff, either, of course: none of the other Magic Skills work like this, after all. While it potency/duration of the buff would scale with Skill, at cap I would prefer to see more potent/longer lasting spells, or possibly a reduction in the pact's cost, depending on the spell. Either way, in the end, I want to see Blood Pacts give much more bang for their buck than they give now. Remember what Fred Perry said: 92 MP is hardly worth the weakest Phalanx in the game for 3:00, AoE or not.

    The second method is make the job more approachable for newbies. The Trial Size quests were a . . . notable step in the right direction, but more needs to be done. Immediately coming to mind are the Carby Mitts. Maybe make a quest at Summoner level 20 that has them as a reward? If you have to be sadistic about it, you could at least make it a cumulative reward for completing all of the Trial Size Quests, considering those are level 20 as well. And would it kill to allow Spirit Pacts to be a little easier to obtain? I mean, the idea of scrolled Summons seems pretty nice at first, but few are bothering with Spirits for much more than Elemental Siphon. I would personally like to see more non-avatar scrolled summons in the future, to see what S-E does with them, and add more diversity to the job, as 'kitten said. And, speaking of which, SMN, BRD, and COR are hardly comparable in terms of buffs, as they all technically give different status effects, even if all the different status effects are doing the same thing. (In other words, March isn't Haste. )

    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
    COR is much like BRD in that it has plenty to do. Giving us something like Pianissimo wouldn't be practical due to the nature of Phantom Roll, but I would like to see something like another tier of Quick Draw, perhaps instead of enhancing an existing enfeeble on a mob, it could boost and existing magical buff cast on an ally? Like I said, it has plenty to do, but just tossing that out there.
    More power to ya.

    Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
    RDM is already very, very busy. Seems like tier 2 enspells are coming. Wait and see.
    Very much agreed. Honestly, RDM could stand to become less busy, if anything (see: WHM Refresh suggestion above). Also, tier II of basic Enfeebles that are available to you around single-digit levels before merit level would be nice, as well. And would Magic Accuracy Bonus be too much to ask? Ah, well, wait and see about Enspell II.

    Anyways, those are my thoughts.
    Last edited by Yellow Mage; 07-31-2008, 09:15 AM. Reason: minor clarity fix.
    Originally posted by Armando
    No one at Square Enix has heard of Occam's Razor.
    Originally posted by Armando
    Nintendo always seems to have a legion of haters at the wings ready to jump in and prop up straw men about hardware and gimmicks and casuals.
    Originally posted by Taskmage
    GOD IS MIFFED AT AMERICA

    REPENT SINNERS OR AT LEAST GIVE A NONCOMMITTAL SHRUG

    GOD IS AMBIVALENT ABOUT FURRIES

    THE END IS COMING ONE OF THESE DAYS WHEN GOD GETS AROUND TO IT
    Originally posted by Taskmage
    However much I am actually smart, I got that way by confronting how stupid I am.
    Matthew 16:15

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    • #3
      Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

      Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
      When I look over the jobs I enjoy, practically all of them require some constant need for attention and involvement. They have lots of job abilities or spells to use and keep an eye out for.

      But I feel some jobs are still lacking in that regard.
      I think this is intentional. Not everyone likes the frantic pace of the busy jobs. Therefore, not every job should be like that. If you think (say) MNK is boring because there's not enough to do, don't play MNK; there's plenty of other jobs, and plenty of other players who like MNK the way it is.

      Given that viewpoint, I don't see much point in commenting on your specifics. Some jobs are busy, other jobs are not. I think SE designed them that way for a reason, and it's a good reason and should be kept.

      Now, of course, that's different from *balance* issues. But if some jobs' playstyle involves a lot of autoattacking, or sitting resting MP to fire off one or two spells per battle, people who like that sort of thing will find that it is the sort of thing they like.
      Defeated: Maat, Divine Might, Fenrir, Kirin, Cactrot Rapido, Xolotl, Diabolos Prime, Kurrea, 9/10 Dynamis Bosses (missing Tav), Promathia, Proto-Ultima, Proto-Omega, 4 Jailers, Apocalypse Nigh, 6/6 Nyzul Bosses
      RDM90, PLD90, DRG90, COR90, SCH90, BLU54
      All Nations Rank 10, ZMs & PMs Complete, AUMs Complete, Captain, Nyzul Floor 100 (5 Weapons, 4 WS), Medal of Altana, WotG Mission 15, 1/3 Addons Complete, 9/9 Abyssea Main Quests, 6/6 Caturae

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      • #4
        Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

        But if some jobs' playstyle involves a lot of autoattacking, or sitting resting MP to fire off one or two spells per battle, people who like that sort of thing will find that it is the sort of thing they like.
        So "lights are on, nobody's home" qualifies as a playstyle?

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        • #5
          Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

          Sadly, yes...

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          • #6
            Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

            I'm with Karinya on mnk, let it be. I know a couple of people (usually pld or rdm main) who level mnk so they have a job that's still useful but is relaxed and easy that they can bring to events which I really don't begrudge.


            I wish people would stop panicking about sch and whm. Sch has not stolen the healer spotlight from whm mostly because haste is too important to how things are generally done in game (particularly TP burning) and sch doesn't get it. rdm is still the prefered healer in higher level exp, merit and small group things like limbus and assault etc to the point that some people won't exp without a rdm main healer and that bothers me a lot more than sch does.

            Sch does get a couple of abilities that completely outclass whm (regenga 2, stoneskinga, AoE status removal) but schs AoE being limited by strategms is a harsh enough trade off for sch not to be too overpowered. Sch has to be careful about hate too, we were trying to work out why the sch in my sky ls was pulling hate so badly so I went to look it up in Kanican and AoE stoneskin hitting 4-5 people is about equal to a provoke, a full 6 people is about 1.25 of a provoke.

            I do agree that whm could stand a couple of tweaks but I don't think giving whm refresh (even though I'm drooling a bit at the idea) should or will happen. SE just went to all the trouble of designing whm a much better sub in sch, I don't think they would invalidate one of the really nice high level benefits that sub gives you by giving whm refresh.

            What I would like to see perhaps is a self or AoE (or both) large but fairly short duration hmp buff. Whm might not be as busy as rdm but that's because playing whm well in a lot of situations is about casting what you need to cast as time/mp efficiently as you can and anticipating well enough so that you can arrange enough safe time to squeeze in a couple of ticks of rest (particularly in the pre merit levels). It's not that whm isn't busy, its that a lot of time whm is busy resting and the need to rest is a limitation on whm that I don't object to.
            sigpic
            Signature courtesy of Selphiie the Enchantress

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            • #7
              Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

              Originally posted by Saren View Post
              I'm with Karinya on mnk, let it be. I know a couple of people (usually pld or rdm main) who level mnk so they have a job that's still useful but is relaxed and easy that they can bring to events which I really don't begrudge.
              To me, that's kinda like the people who turn the use of proper grammar off just because they left school.

              Also, I'll point out that SE is considering making tank abilities/gear for MNK in a recent interview, so they seem to be taking the lack of activity within a job to heart at some level. MNK tanking has become essential in Salvage and no uncommon for certain NMs or even meritpo or very low level PTs. If SE is pushing them in the direction of tanking, they're probably looking at those levels in between as well.

              I wish people would stop panicking about sch and whm. Sch has not stolen the healer spotlight from whm mostly because haste is too important to how things are generally done in game (particularly TP burning) and sch doesn't get it. rdm is still the prefered healer in higher level exp, merit and small group things like limbus and assault etc to the point that some people won't exp without a rdm main healer and that bothers me a lot more than sch does.
              Who's "panicking?" I'm simply pointing out that WHM deserves a little something more new than some teleport spells. RDM is still grossly overpowered at meritpo level to the detriment of of that job rather than the benefit. Show me one RDM that loves meritpo main heal or main heal period. I cannot think one. Its not designed to be a main healer, its just abused as a main healer because its got so many spells that push it close enough in that direction.

              Sch does get a couple of abilities that completely outclass whm (regenga 2, stoneskinga, AoE status removal) but schs AoE being limited by strategms is a harsh enough trade off for sch not to be too overpowered. Sch has to be careful about hate too, we were trying to work out why the sch in my sky ls was pulling hate so badly so I went to look it up in Kanican and AoE stoneskin hitting 4-5 people is about equal to a provoke, a full 6 people is about 1.25 of a provoke.
              Its pretty easy to watch hate, though, and if your PT is /NIN they've done half the buffing for you already, leaving you with just Stoneskin and Phalanx to dish out most of the time and you usually only need one or the other, not both of them constantly.

              Also, SCH can really pile on some -enmity gear, pretty close to what WHM can do. You can dial down some of the hate you could get by doing Rapture/Cure III instead of just doing Cure IV.

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              • #8
                Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

                Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                To me, that's kinda like the people who turn the use of proper grammar off just because they left school.
                If that's how you see it then fine but I think people who come to almost everything as rdm or pld or another high responsibility/stress job it's nice to be able to kick back and smack the hell out of things sometimes without carrying much responsibility for how well the event runs.

                I know mnk can be more than just braindead death with fists, a friend who has mnk and pld came mnk to tank the jet searwheels nm a few weeks ago, we did it mnk/nin, whm, sch, sch. Evil fight but definitely doable.

                Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                Who's "panicking?" I'm simply pointing out that WHM deserves a little something more new than some teleport spells.
                Not you specifically but a lot of people act like sch is the new rdm of exp and it's just not. The only point I was making about rdm is that it's that job that eclipses whm as a healer in a lot of situations, not sch. I'm not opposed to a couple of tweaks for whm because those teleport spells were pretty much junk (I've used mine once to help a friend get vicious mufflers since I got them and played with them a little) but I do a lot with sch and I make a better main healer than they do.

                Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                Its pretty easy to watch hate, though, and if your PT is /NIN they've done half the buffing for you already, leaving you with just Stoneskin and Phalanx to dish out most of the time and you usually only need one or the other, not both of them constantly.

                Also, SCH can really pile on some -enmity gear, pretty close to what WHM can do. You can dial down some of the hate you could get by doing Rapture/Cure III instead of just doing Cure IV.
                I'm not saying you can't but I think that sch has to be a little more careful about enmity than whm does when healing and doesn't get access to blessed gear which is just the best thing you can be wearing in a few slots for a lot of spells.
                sigpic
                Signature courtesy of Selphiie the Enchantress

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                • #9
                  Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

                  Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                  Show me one RDM that loves meritpo main heal or main heal period.
                  o_o/
                  Bamboo shadows sweep the stars,
                  yet not a mote of dust is stirred;
                  Moonlight pierces the depths of the pond,
                  leaving no trace in the water.

                  - Mugaku

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                  • #10
                    Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

                    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
                    o_o/
                    /grabs a torch and a pitchfork

                    Get him!!!!!

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                    • #11
                      Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

                      Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                      Show me one RDM that loves meritpo main heal or main heal period.
                      /

                      I have to second that. I enjoy taking care of people. I'll even heal when I'm on blm....I know *SHOCKANDAWE*!
                      Originally posted by Feba
                      But I mean I do not mind a good looking man so long as I do not have to view his penis.
                      Originally posted by Taskmage
                      God I hate my periods. You think passing a clot through a vagina is bad? Try it with a penis.
                      Originally posted by DakAttack
                      ...I'm shitting dicks out of my eyeballs in excitement for the next bestgreating game of all time ever.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

                        Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
                        o_o/
                        Turn coat.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

                          Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                          /grabs a torch and a pitchfork

                          Get him!!!!!
                          I didn't thank you so I couldn't remove it.
                          Originally posted by Armando
                          No one at Square Enix has heard of Occam's Razor.
                          Originally posted by Armando
                          Nintendo always seems to have a legion of haters at the wings ready to jump in and prop up straw men about hardware and gimmicks and casuals.
                          Originally posted by Taskmage
                          GOD IS MIFFED AT AMERICA

                          REPENT SINNERS OR AT LEAST GIVE A NONCOMMITTAL SHRUG

                          GOD IS AMBIVALENT ABOUT FURRIES

                          THE END IS COMING ONE OF THESE DAYS WHEN GOD GETS AROUND TO IT
                          Originally posted by Taskmage
                          However much I am actually smart, I got that way by confronting how stupid I am.
                          Matthew 16:15

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

                            Originally posted by Yellow Mage View Post
                            I didn't thank you so I couldn't remove it.
                            I did!

                            But I'm about more than just derails. Let's continue.

                            Among "that's just the way it's been," saying "I want occasional dead-brain time" is among the worst reasons to oppose improvements to a job's utility. If S-E has expressed interest in increasing MNK's utility, awesome. One more job capable of tanking is not a bad thing, particularly when it's got as much as inherent potential as MNK. It's about as natural a progression as you can get.

                            Until 'kitten mentioned it, here I was wondering what they possibly do, outside of finding yet more ways for MNK to do damage.
                            Last edited by BurningPanther; 07-26-2008, 01:39 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Pre-Merit: What jobs do you think need more activity?

                              Originally posted by TheGrandMom View Post
                              /

                              I have to second that. I enjoy taking care of people. I'll even heal when I'm on blm....I know *SHOCKANDAWE*!
                              Gah, I could never main heal on black mage. Granted, I'll help cure now and again if it's needed, but I will never agree to be a healer on my black mage.
                              ~~~BLM SAM RNG NIN PLD~~~

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