A couple Enmity questions

[Armando]

Re: A couple Enmity questions

Disregard; Looks like Kanican finally with new info on the THF JAs.
EDIT: Sadly, Kanican's Enmity tests still don't have any info relevant to the thread =/

[Ziero]

Re: A couple Enmity questions

Well what's really the main topic of the thread? If Enmity affects TA and Snarl?

I would assume, that since TA transfers all hate from that hit onto a target, and that Enmity gear increases the actual Enmity produced by said action by a percentage, that the Enmity gear would increase the amount of hate passes along during the TA strike.

I mean, we know TA transfers hate from the attack, and enmity adds hate to the action, so why wouldn't the Enmity transfer with it?

And the same prolly goes for Snarl as well, because you're transfering your hate, which would still be under the affect of your Enmity merits.

Personally though, I still wouldn't mess with Enmity unless you were a career tank/mage

[Armando]

Re: A couple Enmity questions

I mean, we know TA transfers hate from the attack, and enmity adds hate to the action, so why wouldn't the Enmity transfer with it?

Here's the thing - how do we know it's the THF's -/+ Enmity stat that affects the amount of enmity added to the target? Because the enmity is added to the other person, it's also not unreasonable that it would be that person's Enmity stat that matters and not the THF's.

I would expect the Enmity stat to have no effect on the enmity transferred by Snarl/Accomplice/Collaborator, since those just move enmity around rather than generating a certain amount of enmity, but that's just speculation. There's no way to know for sure without testing them.

[Aksannyi]

Re: A couple Enmity questions

It'd be a fun test to do, I'd be interested in doing some of that if I had THF. Though I wouldn't mind going RDM/NIN and being the SATA target. Because even when I don't want to be SATA'ed, people always SATA me.

I think everyone in this thread knows who I might be talking about. >.>

[Akashimo]

Re: A couple Enmity questions

/em SATA's aks.

[Ziero]

Re: A couple Enmity questions

Here's the thing - how do we know it's the THF's -/+ Enmity stat that affects the amount of enmity added to the target? Because the enmity is added to the other person, it's also not unreasonable that it would be that person's Enmity stat that matters and not the THF's.

I would expect the Enmity stat to have no effect on the enmity transferred by Snarl/Accomplice/Collaborator, since those just move enmity around rather than generating a certain amount of enmity, but that's just speculation. There's no way to know for sure without testing them.

Well with TA, the Enmity comes entirely from the Dmg the thf does and any modifications from that should logically carry over when hate is Transfered. Because the Thf is doing the Dmg, and Enmity+ would increase the hate created from that Dmg, it's not unfeasible to suggest that the increased hate would be added to the TA partner. Because if the partner wasn't there, then the hate would just build up on the Thf instead. So it's not the Enmity gear/merits affecting the TA partner directly, it's the Enmity gear/merits adding to the hate built from the hit, and instead of being added to the Thf's hate, it would added to the Partner's hate with the rest of the Dmg Enmity.

With Accomp/Collab, seeing as we're stealing hate generated by another player, Enmity gear on the Thf itself wouldn't affect the hate stolen. Because the JA itself doesn't generate hate, and Enmity gear doesn't affect the decay/growth of previously created hate. The hate gained by the Thf during those JAs would be entirely dependent on the hate created by the target.

Snarl on the otherhand is different. Because the Bst is sending it's own hate to another target. If a Bst had Enmity- then the hate modification is already in place. Like if the Bst used voke w/o enmity- then snarled, the full hate from the Voke would transfer. But if a Bst used voke with enmity- gear then snarled, the full hate of the voke would still transfer...but said hate would have been lower to begin with.

Since it's been proven that Enmity affects the initial hate of an action, we can easily summize that enmity gear doesn't cause any effect on the hate being transferred, just the hate that was built up before being moved. And since Snarl moves all hate from the Bst to the pet, using Enmity- gear would just slow down the hate built by the bst and have no real affect, positive or negative, on the amount sent. Because the Bst can't send hate it doesn't have.

It'd be a fun test to do, I'd be interested in doing some of that if I had THF. Though I wouldn't mind going RDM/NIN and being the SATA target. Because even when I don't want to be SATA'ed, people always SATA me.

Actually, subbing nin to test enmity rates would only serve to skew and disrupt results. It's been proven that evading/taking 0 dmg results in no hate loss, but shadows being hit does.

Still, TA would be tough to test because the Dmg could vary and thus the hate generated would vary as well.

[Aksannyi]

Re: A couple Enmity questions

/em SATA's aks.

Aksannyi evades.

Actually, subbing nin to test enmity rates would only serve to skew and disrupt results. It's been proven that evading/taking 0 dmg results in no hate loss, but shadows being hit does.

Bah, that's true. Well, I guess that means I'm too squishy to be useful, lol.

[Akashimo]

Re: A couple Enmity questions

Aksannyi evades.

Calls GM, Aks haxxors.

[Aksannyi]

Re: A couple Enmity questions

Nah I just moved out of the way at the last second so you weren't directly behind me, therefore making you miss.

[Akashimo]

Re: A couple Enmity questions

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: A couple Enmity questions

The thought struck me that BST/WAR might be able to test this best. Since there are so many variables at play with THF in PTs and far fewer with BST on thier lonesome.

Since Provoke is decaying hate, voke a mob, snarl the first round of enmity to the pet and then keep snarling over time and see where it goes. I think Snarl itself has a very light amount of decaying hate on it, but without any real hate behind it, I've noticed hate keeps coming back to the BST rather quickly.

If +enmity merits/gear has an impact on Snarl, then the mob shouldn't turn to face the BST so often. If the enmity is fixed and doesn't transfer, with no other enmity generated, the mob should fast the BST more often.

At least, that's my present theory. Its not really in my budget to toss on +enmity gear to test this out, nor do I really have the time to sink merits in it just to test it.

[Cerealkiller]

Re: A couple Enmity questions

going back to your enmity merits being only a 4% increase, well while it does say it increases it by "1 point" weather or not thats an actual % or not can not be determined, however i can say that my experience with ppl who have enmity merits is that they are not so much an actual % and seem to act almost as a modifier, where in enmity is increased exponentiolay based upon actual enmity gear as witha pld or nin, say for example a pld has all tolled +20 enmity on his gear, the enmity merits seem to not just increase that to +24 but seem to build it even higher than that. Idk if it would even be useful either way for bst though, more tests need be done, but dont knock enmity merits til you see them in action baby gurl

[Armando]

Re: A couple Enmity questions

BBQ: Don't forget to take into account that pulling generates hate (and more importantly, some of it is Cumulative Enmity.)

Cerealkiller, it's a tested fact that Enmity -/+ affects the hate of your actions directly as a %. Read Kanican's enmity tests for the details, Ziero linked to them in Page 1.

[Lunaryn]

Re: A couple Enmity questions

I don't think the variable damage is in any way insurmountable. You'd basically need two THFs and two Stoneskin-capable hate targets. Hate targets get on the hate list through VE only and this hate is allowed to lapse. Then each THF TAs a respective hate target. They are geared such that an Enmity difference is the main distinction between them. Damages done are recorded, as well as which way the mob faced after the TAs. Timing would be significant, and the THFs should alternate hate targets periodically. (Hate targets should have no difference in Enmity+/-)

Key would simply be to amass a large enough sample of data to be able to compare the effects of the damages in each contest. It might be tricky to find mobs that can withstand two TAs and not be very dangerous. Deliberately gimping (but keeping comparable) the THFs' gear may help.

Of course, we don't get a whole lot of +Enmity gear easily. -Enmity from Crow/Raven would probably be the easier choice for differentiating.