Dunes Parties

[Armando]

Re: Dunes Parties

These four points are easily answered by ffxiclopedia, common sense, and a trip to Rolanberry. Next?

Next would be actually reading my post instead of just skimming it. There was no FFXIClopedia (or common sense) in 2003.

Armando, I'd be willing to resub just to try this out though. I missed the whole exploring in the game.

Were you on Midgard (or whatever server it is now)?

[Takelli]

Re: Dunes Parties

Armando, I'd be willing to resub just to try this out though. I missed the whole exploring in the game.

[Mezlo]

Re: Dunes Parties

Think about what you need to realize a new camp is viable:
1) You need a comprehensive table that tells you the level ranges for each /check message and the exact EXP yields. This table has to be accurate for all level ranges.
2) You need a list of all the mobs in all the zones, along with their precise level ranges. If you haven't actually been to the zone, you'd also want the number of mobs so you can tell if they're common. A way to search interactively would be a HUGE plus.
3) You need to know how high level a mob can be before it's just plain unsafe.
4) You need to visit the zone and scout for safe places to camp.

These four points are easily answered by ffxiclopedia, common sense, and a trip to Rolanberry. Next?

[Armando]

Re: Dunes Parties

Rolanberry is so close to Jeuno, do you really think someone didnt try all the possible camps that made sense, compare XP/hour with other camps, and that's why they chose Qufim?

Yes, I think that.

Think about what you need to realize a new camp is viable:
1) You need a comprehensive table that tells you the level ranges for each /check message and the exact EXP yields. This table has to be accurate for all level ranges.
2) You need a list of all the mobs in all the zones, along with their precise level ranges. If you haven't actually been to the zone, you'd also want the number of mobs so you can tell if they're common. A way to search interactively would be a HUGE plus.
3) You need to know how high level a mob can be before it's just plain unsafe.
4) You need to visit the zone and scout for safe places to camp.

Now pretend it's 2002, no one has any knowledge of the game. Think about what it takes to find this shit out. The only way to know a mob's level for sure is to be the same level as it (and even that presupposes that Even Match = same level as you.) What are you going to do? Trial and error. You're going to get 6 people together and you're going to fight shit, die, and fight more shit until you find something that works. And after doing that, do you really think you'd go through the trouble of dying some more to find alternate camps?

When the first settlers colonized Qufim Island they probably didn't even have Meat Mithkabobs to eat. It took years for people to figure all of this shit out. For the longest time, players put EXP/kill above all else, even if that meant taking 3 minutes to kill a crab and being out of MP after killing only two. By the time anyone would've had the chance to explore alternative camps, and have some common sense, Qufim Island would've been well established. I can assure you no one on the NA side was using a parser in 2003. Maybe some were by 2004, but those were still the times of lolDRG, lolBST, lolWAR, aspiring PLDs and DRKs going WAR/WHM and WAR/BLM with sword and board or great sword. Those were the times of the BradyGames guide. Ignorance is not so easily undone.

Imagine I go back to 2005 and camp Rolanberry and it's actually good. Do you think it's going to be The Next Big Thing? No, it'll probably just be an interesting footnote in the history of my other five party members.

More importantly, I don't think you understand how few players give a fuck. Take it from someone who spent much, much more time testing shit in FFXI than actually leveling or doing endgame or doing missions. There's less than a 0.1% that actually cares about finding stuff out. There's another 1% that can't be bothered to test, but are interested enough in the latest developments. The other 99% are just following the 1%. Until 2008, all of our tanking was based on voodoo and superstition. Kaeko figured Enmity out in one month, but it took six years for a single person to step up to the plate.

But if you are so in love with your numbers to bother with actual field experience then carry on.

Your anecdote is just that: a single data point. I wish half my tests were so simple.

My offer still stands. Find me 5 guinea pigs and I'll resubscribe.

[Mezlo]

Re: Dunes Parties

Do you really, honestly, think people never tried? That you are somehow blessed with an uncanny insight that beats both JP and NA players who played the game for years back then?

Again, i really need to side with Ray. Rolanberry is so close to Jeuno, do you really think someone didnt try all the possible camps that made sense, compare XP/hour with other camps, and that's why they chose Qufim? I didn't do it, but i can guarantee some hard core players tried and parsed all plausible camps around Vanadiel, and since Qufim had the best XP/hour, thats where most people flocked to. Again, none of this can be proven, all I'm asking you to do is to actually think of the hardcore FFXI player base, think how number-centric they were with parsing and XP gains per hour, and then really ask yourself, do you really think no one ever tried heading south from jeuno instead of north to try out camp options???

[Raydeus]

Re: Dunes Parties

Not that I have any way of proving my claims (haven't logged into FFXI in over 2 years, and even if I did, I hear mid level partying is dead), but I don't buy that. Everyone follows the beaten path. Finding your own camp requires knowing how many levels above you a mob should be, which zones have a decent number of mobs at those levels, and where in the zone it would be safe to camp. It's so much easier for both you and the people you're trying to convince to simply go to the established camps. If anyone argues that Lv.X is too low for Y zone you can just counter with "Got any better ideas?" which they probably don't, because they'd have to do research to answer that question and any EXP is better than no EXP.

Case in point: Very few people camped the Yuhtunga outpost or the waterfall near SSG but it was still an excellent camp with mobs that don't suck (seriously, any mob that has the courtesy of killing itself is OK in my book.) And unlike Yhoator, a pair of NINs or WAR/NINs can actually work in those camps. I barely saw anyone camp the goblins immediately inside Delkfutt's Tower either even though they're at the right level by the time the Clippers outside start to suck. People would disband the party and waste 45 minutes going to go Yuhtunga at 24 and take forever to kill IT++ Mandragora when there's a perfectly usable camp 1 minute away, with a nearby zone line to fall back on. I did try Delkfutt's and it works.

It took years for people to realize that Defense and VIT are busted and that a PLD will tank better with Accuracy gear and a Haubergeon. The first couple of times, people laughed. "You're hurting your evasion!" they said. Nobody stopped to think that the only reason a PLD evades at all is because the mob is forced to miss 5% of the time. Then people started doing it and it worked and suddenly it was common knowledge that a PLD should get a Haubergeon if he can.

Ray cites running out of mobs, so I'm curious where he camped. All of the "farms" (the parts with fences and rolanberries) are densely packed with grubs. If anything I expected the problem to be difficulty in pulling without linking, not running out of mobs. You also have to consider that getting a replacement in Qufim is a logistical nightmare. The usual wait time is what, 20 minutes at least? And that lost time is counting against the play time of the next party member to drop from the party. Even if you pull slow in Rolanberry for whatever reasons, once you have to replace anyone and they can just Chocobo straight to camp Qufim falls behind again. And if someone dies? They can be back at camp in 3 minutes. Contrast that to Qufim where people will waste 5 minutes shouting for Raise and wait another 5 for the Raise to arrive, and another 5 for Raise sickness to wear off, if you have good luck and get someone; or the person HPs and takes 10-15 minutes to get there anyways depending on where he died and the time of day. And all else being equal, you'll kill Crawlers faster than Crabs so even if the pulls are long and slow, the battles won't take as long.

I could be wrong though, maybe Rolanberry Fields doesn't have a single camp that's better than Qufim. There's still Batallia Downs and Sauromugue Champaign which have the same mob levels, just different species (birds and beetles). All 3 zones have Goblins and regional Beastmen of comparable level as well. Surely there's at least ONE camp in all that land?

tl;dr The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Do you really, honestly, think people never tried? That you are somehow blessed with an uncanny insight that beats both JP and NA players who played the game for years back then? I already said people did try those camps almost 10 years ago before settling for Qufim and before deciding it was actually better to go to the tunnel in Basty or inside Delkfut's than staying in Rolanberry and the other zones around Jeuno.

But if you are so in love with your numbers to bother with actual field experience then carry on.

[Armando]

Re: Dunes Parties

Right. Because no one parses, cares about XP per hour, or even keeps up with numbers in FFXI. Right? Right? Oh, wait. No, opposite...

I'm not sure where you're going with this. My point is that you can't start with the premise "I haven't observed X" and conclude "X doesn't exist." Otherwise, no one would've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars looking for the Higgs Boson.

To prove Rolanberry Fields is viable just requires someone to find a single camp that works. To prove that it doesn't, you'd need to try every single camp and show that they're all worse than Qufim. And you'd still need to check every camp in Batallia and Sauromugue to prove that there's no alternative to Qufim. If you can show me someone who's done that, you win. Until then, neither of us has proof, so you sure can't say I'm wrong yet.

EDIT: If you know 5 other suckers on whatever server sucked up Midgard willing to lose 2-3 hours of their lives, I'll put my money where my mouth is and resubscribe just to test out my theory.

[Mezlo]

Re: Dunes Parties

tl;dr The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Right. Because no one parses, cares about XP per hour, or even keeps up with numbers in FFXI. Right? Right? Oh, wait. No, opposite...

- - - Updated - - -

Case in point: Very few people camped the Yuhtunga outpost or the waterfall near SSG but it was still an excellent camp with mobs that don't suck

I camped this. ALOT. Not sure of your playing times, but this was a major camp.

- - - Updated - - -

I barely saw anyone camp the goblins immediately inside Delkfutt's Tower either even though they're at the right level by the time the Clippers outside start to suck.

Again, a MAJOR camp. I hit this camp on almost every single one of my jobs leveling up. Again, maybe your playing times?

[Armando]

Re: Dunes Parties

If Rolanberry was actually a good camp, you would see a party camped there... The fact that no one was ever there is the answer to the question.

Not that I have any way of proving my claims (haven't logged into FFXI in over 2 years, and even if I did, I hear mid level partying is dead), but I don't buy that. Everyone follows the beaten path. Finding your own camp requires knowing how many levels above you a mob should be, which zones have a decent number of mobs at those levels, and where in the zone it would be safe to camp. It's so much easier for both you and the people you're trying to convince to simply go to the established camps. If anyone argues that Lv.X is too low for Y zone you can just counter with "Got any better ideas?" which they probably don't, because they'd have to do research to answer that question and any EXP is better than no EXP.

Case in point: Very few people camped the Yuhtunga outpost or the waterfall near SSG but it was still an excellent camp with mobs that don't suck (seriously, any mob that has the courtesy of killing itself is OK in my book.) And unlike Yhoator, a pair of NINs or WAR/NINs can actually work in those camps. I barely saw anyone camp the goblins immediately inside Delkfutt's Tower either even though they're at the right level by the time the Clippers outside start to suck. People would disband the party and waste 45 minutes going to go Yuhtunga at 24 and take forever to kill IT++ Mandragora when there's a perfectly usable camp 1 minute away, with a nearby zone line to fall back on. I did try Delkfutt's and it works.

It took years for people to realize that Defense and VIT are busted and that a PLD will tank better with Accuracy gear and a Haubergeon. The first couple of times, people laughed. "You're hurting your evasion!" they said. Nobody stopped to think that the only reason a PLD evades at all is because the mob is forced to miss 5% of the time. Then people started doing it and it worked and suddenly it was common knowledge that a PLD should get a Haubergeon if he can.

Ray cites running out of mobs, so I'm curious where he camped. All of the "farms" (the parts with fences and rolanberries) are densely packed with grubs. If anything I expected the problem to be difficulty in pulling without linking, not running out of mobs. You also have to consider that getting a replacement in Qufim is a logistical nightmare. The usual wait time is what, 20 minutes at least? And that lost time is counting against the play time of the next party member to drop from the party. Even if you pull slow in Rolanberry for whatever reasons, once you have to replace anyone and they can just Chocobo straight to camp Qufim falls behind again. And if someone dies? They can be back at camp in 3 minutes. Contrast that to Qufim where people will waste 5 minutes shouting for Raise and wait another 5 for the Raise to arrive, and another 5 for Raise sickness to wear off, if you have good luck and get someone; or the person HPs and takes 10-15 minutes to get there anyways depending on where he died and the time of day. And all else being equal, you'll kill Crawlers faster than Crabs so even if the pulls are long and slow, the battles won't take as long.

I could be wrong though, maybe Rolanberry Fields doesn't have a single camp that's better than Qufim. There's still Batallia Downs and Sauromugue Champaign which have the same mob levels, just different species (birds and beetles). All 3 zones have Goblins and regional Beastmen of comparable level as well. Surely there's at least ONE camp in all that land?

tl;dr The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

[Mezlo]

Re: Dunes Parties

Ray's right. Look at it this way. If Rolanberry was actually a good camp, you would see a party camped there... The fact that no one was ever there is the answer to the question.

[Oniwabanshu]

Re: Dunes Parties

i remember using the berry grubs for bst soloing back in the day in rol. thats pretty much the only time i ever ventured from pash to rol just inside the zone had bees and grubs, was decent exp way back when i'm talking like 3-5k and hour in the 30's i also remember when 10k an hour as acutally good, now it's laughable and easly done solo with GoV

[Raydeus]

Re: Dunes Parties

I, too, am having trouble believing Ray's claims, especially that it could possibly be any worse than Qufim. Then again, perhaps soloing in Rolanberry Fields is a tad different from partying there. (Did you run out of grubs too fast or something?)

You run out of mobs, you get more aggro, you have to pull from too far away, roaming the area is way worse than anything in Qufim, etc. etc. etc. There are very good reasons why people didn't just move there and were actually much more willing to go all he way to Basty to level in the tunnel than trying Rolanberry.


But you don't really have to believe me, just get a party for the experiment and level there for a while.

[Janay]

Re: Dunes Parties

I remember hearing what I feel even today was the best track ever; "Mercenaries Delight" bgm when I got my first party invite in "Wajoam Woodlands" (spelling).

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Dunes Parties

I, too, am having trouble believing Ray's claims, especially that it could possibly be any worse than Qufim. Then again, perhaps soloing in Rolanberry Fields is a tad different from partying there. (Did you run out of grubs too fast or something?)

[Takelli]

Re: Dunes Parties

Never got a chance to test that one out. By the time I was picking out my own camps, I had already leveled most jobs past Qufim. I find it difficult to believe there isn't a single good camp in Rolanberry Fields though.

Speaking of non-traditional camps, one of my favorites was the Yuhtunga Jungle outpost at 27-28 killing Goblin Smithies and Furriers. It beat the crap out of going into Yhoator underleveled, and Goblins speed up EXP by killing themselves sometimes. If the party ran long and you got to 29-30, you could move further south to the waterfall and kill Sahagins instead.

I remember the Sahagin camp when FFXI first came out. Was on my Ranger, and was the puller. We dropped them like flies, fast pulls, fast kills.

Went there a few times, and was quite fun when my original linkshell and I did parties there.

I just wish there was a way for people to do the Other camps, though. I would have loved to experiance the old school camps, and do the full party SCs again. But... The Old Vana is dead.