Dunes Parties

[Raydeus]

Re: Dunes Parties

What do you mean borderline worthless? It is worthless, there is no data to begin with.

And the reason for that is that we simply didn't play the game using the scientific method. We didn't show up at an area equipped with our Labcoat Armor +1 and armed with a Sword of Math and a Parser Shield.

What we did back then was simply go to the area, try out the potential camp someone had the brilliant idea to propose (and it sucked), then move to another option (and it sucked), then try roaming the area and avoiding aggro*. We would then eventually maybe find a relatively decent camp and stay there for a while to pretend we hadn't just wasted 2+ hours of our lives. We then disbanded to never go back to that area if possible.

And that's about it.


But the thing is at least we tried. We went there and tried, personally. Now, once you do that and get your statistics you may be able to refute the notion that the place was not worth it, but in the mean time you'd do well to keep some healthy skepticism about your theories just as you do about my personal experiences and the experiences of other players in the area.




*And lvl 18-22-ish just wasn't very good for roaming if I remember correctly.

[Armando]

Re: Dunes Parties

You are making up imaginary numbers based on even more imaginary data without having even tried partying there back then.

Again with the B. Let's go back to A. You picked a bad camp. That data point is borderline worthless.

And whether they kept going due to inertia or not doesn't change the fact that in practice it simply worked better.

You still have no proof that it works better, or that they tried other zones at all. I doubt people were calculating EXP/hour in 2002; it wouldn't have done them much good.

I just hope if data shows otherwise you wont resort to messing with the numbers to prove your point, of course.

If I wanted so desperately to be right, I'd just lie and save myself the time and money.

[Raydeus]

Re: Dunes Parties

as Ray is with Ad hominem.

When did I start attacking your character? XD

I mean I have no idea how good with math you actually are, but you do show that same flaw many theorists have when the stupid reality doesn't match their beautiful formulae.

But my rejection of your theory has nothing to do with it, but with my personal experiences partying in the zone(s) in question. And if your detailed study shows that Rolanberry is indeed superior to Qufim then that's that, no matter how math-looney you may be.

I just hope if data shows otherwise you wont resort to messing with the numbers to prove your point, of course.

[Raydeus]

Re: Dunes Parties

Ray, I'll give you a hint: those other 89 Berry Grubs were in the real camps, where the Rolanberries are. And just who are these "so many others?" Do I get to make up imaginary players to back up my claims too?

You are making up imaginary numbers based on even more imaginary data without having even tried partying there back then. At least I have personal experience actually partying in those places, and the players I partied with hopefully weren't just in my imagination, because the game also believed they were there as well.

Also remember that (again) my point here was that people chose Qufim for a reason, not that it was impossible to party in Rolanberry. And whether they kept going due to inertia or not doesn't change the fact that in practice it simply worked better. Also remember that I never said I was against alternative camps or was advocating for "cookie-cutter camps onry" in any way.

My point was and still is (for the 10th time since people still seems to want to ignore it for some reason) that your theory does not work that well in practice and that that is the reason I (and those imaginary others) didn't bother partying there.

----

But all things considered I'm now actually looking forward to seeing the results for both Qufim and Rolanberry. The number of viable camps, the xp/hr rate and the number of parties the areas can support. Even better if you included Batallia and Merip<sic> but that probably would be too much.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Dunes Parties

I'm pretty sure it was patched post-NA release. Thus, the lolDRG syndrome that persisted half an eternity (yet further evidence of the stubborn inertia of the playerbase).

[Armando]

Re: Dunes Parties

Wasn't the whole Pentaspam thing pre-RoZ too? Or did that happen post-NA release?

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Dunes Parties

Wait, they could only Hell Slash pre-RoZ? Holy shit. Must've been Monk heaven.

I remember reading elsewhere that the predominantly JP playerbase took to calling it "Bone-Bone Fantasy" at the time. Do remember that KRT was still a cult following for the longest time even after RotZ. A rough ToAU equivalent would've been something like "Colibri Fantasy XI".

[Armando]

Re: Dunes Parties

Qufim became a popular camp before RotZ back when the only TP move bones could do was their single target melee slash

Wait, they could only Hell Slash pre-RoZ? Holy shit. Must've been Monk heaven.

[Taskmage]

Re: Dunes Parties

The 2003-2004 point is that the popular camps were established in 2003-2004, and the reason people still prefer those camps has more to do with social momentum than anything else. Actually, if we really want a history lesson, Qufim became a popular camp before RotZ back when the only TP move bones could do was their single target melee slash, which made the larger number of undead pops in Qufim an advantage rather than a disadvantage. When they got their AoE moves, that brought Qufim more in line with other Jeuno-adjacent areas, but nobody bothered to move because it still worked.

I can't believe that ten years into the game there are still closed-minded sticks in the mud that think cookie cutter play must necessarily be the best way to play, but I guess if that weren't true then we wouldn't have to worry about things like social momentum.

[Armando]

Re: Dunes Parties

Me: I believe A.
Mez: Yeah, well, I can prove B. Therefore, you're wrong.

Congratulations on proving B. I'm glad you're having as much fun with the Straw man fallacy as Ray is with Ad hominem.

[Mezlo]

Re: Dunes Parties

So, yeah. Do that think he said in the part of his post that you quoted: read his post instead of just skimming it.

Ummm... huh?

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry, should've known better than to use logic. In retrospect, TM answered the question of what probably happened to Delkfutt's and Yuhtunga outpost between when I camped there and when you did: Campsitarus. Which ties into his point that where people camp is based on social networking, not empirical testing.

2005: Campsitarus-- The guide to FFXI xp camps! ^^: 26-28 Yuhtunga Jungle
2006: Campsitarus-- The guide to FFXI xp camps! ^^: 29-32 Yuhtunga Jungle
2007: Campsitarus-- The guide to FFXI xp camps! ^^: 21-23 Lower Delkfutt's Tower

Oh, ok, so yeah, Armando is correct if we pretend the year is 2003-2004. I was basing my arguement on when I played. So... carry on.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm looking forward to seeing your test results!

[Armando]

Re: Dunes Parties

So GTFO with your limiting the discussion to prior anyone knowing anything or any real resources being developed...

Sorry, should've known better than to use logic. In retrospect, TM answered the question of what probably happened to Delkfutt's and Yuhtunga outpost between when I camped there and when you did: Campsitarus. Which ties into his point that where people camp is based on social networking, not empirical testing.

2005: Campsitarus-- The guide to FFXI xp camps! ^^: 26-28 Yuhtunga Jungle
2006: Campsitarus-- The guide to FFXI xp camps! ^^: 29-32 Yuhtunga Jungle
2007: Campsitarus-- The guide to FFXI xp camps! ^^: 21-23 Lower Delkfutt's Tower

Both the Sahagin camp and Delkfutt's Tower showed up there post-ToAU era. Now the 99% can boldly go where there 1% has already gone (see also: Murphie's post on pulling teeth.)

B) That players (myself included) did test those alternative camps around Jeuno back then and decided it was way more convenient to party Korroloka/Qufim > Tower instead of running around Rolanberry and the other zones.
...
...and the one by the weapons (if you even know where that is.)

"The one by weapons?" Have you ever farmed Berry Grubs? That's the last place you'd look for them. You tried to camp that zone once, picked one of the worst possible spots, and concluded that the zone isn't viable. That's not testing; that's a joke. I could pick some really backwards camps in Qufim too.

Should people with theories test them? Obviously, but to be blinded by the numbers because they look so pretty on paper will never yield good results even if there are 91 spawn points!â„¢. Specially when so many others have already tested the exact same thing, 1% inspiration and 99% transpiration and all that.

Ray, I'll give you a hint: those other 89 Berry Grubs were in the real camps, where the Rolanberries are. And just who are these "so many others?" Do I get to make up imaginary players to back up my claims too?

[Raydeus]

Re: Dunes Parties

Yes, but the premise of this discussion was:

A) That Rolanberry was theoretically superior to Qufim and other sites.
B) That players (myself included) did test those alternative camps around Jeuno back then and decided it was way more convenient to party Korroloka/Qufim > Tower instead of running around Rolanberry and the other zones.


And it was not :

- About the viability of alternative camps.
- Players being "forced to party" in Qufim.
- Having friends to join you in adventures where "no one cared about making less xp because they are having fun!"
- Etc. etc.


There are camps in Rolanberry, the one by Crawler's nest (which I forgot about) and the one by the weapons (if you even know where that is.) But my point was and still is that for all the numbers Armando had thought about the practice showed it was decent at best and not worth the hassle, plain and simple. Which is why people tried those camps, enjoyed the fresh air by the vineyards for a while, then never accepted another invite to Rolanberry ever again.

Was it viable? Yeah sure, as were many other places.
Were players forced to party there? Not really, but you can't deny just how convenient Qufim was in comparison both to get to and to find a party for.
Were players lazy to explore new camps outside the already tried and tested? Yeah, but we already knew that.
Was Qufim the preferred choice for a good reason? Yes, and that's all I'm saying here.
Should people with theories test them? Obviously, but to be blinded by the numbers because they look so pretty on paper will never yield good results even if there are 91 spawn points!â„¢. Specially when so many others have already tested the exact same thing, 1% inspiration and 99% transpiration and all that.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Dunes Parties

LMFAO! Tell me again why we are limiting a ffxi discussion to 2003??? The discussion we were having is whether or not the camps in Rolanberry were better than Qufim camps. So GTFO with your limiting the discussion to prior anyone knowing anything or any real resources being developed...

His point was that people are stupid, and just because they continue to conform to a miserable camp site has little bearing on the merits of the camp sites themselves.

So, yeah. Do that think he said in the part of his post that you quoted: read his post instead of just skimming it.

[Mezlo]

Re: Dunes Parties

Next would be actually reading my post instead of just skimming it. There was no FFXIClopedia (or common sense) in 2003.Were you on Midgard (or whatever server it is now)?

LMFAO! Tell me again why we are limiting a ffxi discussion to 2003??? The discussion we were having is whether or not the camps in Rolanberry were better than Qufim camps. So GTFO with your limiting the discussion to prior anyone knowing anything or any real resources being developed...