Battle Adjustments (02/01/2011)

[Rodin]

Re: Battle Adjustments (02/01/2011)

Right. Remakes, reversions and sequels for Final Fantasy games never happen.

I like your enthusiasm for XI, but to be honest the massive revision they would have to do to countless hours of gameplay, it wouldn't seem effective to make a revision or remake to FFXI. Seeing as how they haven't even acknowledged the existence (actually, denied it I believe) the PS3 remake of FFVII, which nearly every FF fanboy has been screaming about a remake for I dunno how many years now.

A lot of the older remakes for the FF games (the SNES era games) are made purely because the lack of need for extensive programming and decoding (the technology is archaic) are feasible because the amount of work and resources needed for the remake are minimal compared to the projected profits. (FF6 for GBA? OH MAH GAWD.)

FFXI is too large of a game.

Although, looking at the changes to XIV they're planning, you might start seeing it as a sequel to XI.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle Adjustments (02/01/2011)

As for playing in offline mode, there used to be something called ProjectXI, which would let you emulate a server (similar to a private server for WoW.) Square-Enix sent the original programmer of the project a cease and desist letter some time ago.

Basically, you could rework the entire code of the game to make it your style. You could max out all levels of everything on your toon. You could make Bubbly Bernie shit relic weapons like he just ate mexican food. You could be a level 75BLM/75RDM. And you could invite your friends to play on it.

That is probably the closest this game will get to being offline.

Right. Remakes, reversions and sequels for Final Fantasy games never happen.

[Rodin]

Re: Battle Adjustments (02/01/2011)

So the fewer subscribers FFXI has:

- The more TH improves
- The easier skill-ups become
- The more EXP you get per kill
- And missions become even more of a joke.

Seriously, can you just make an offline version now? The only problem I'm seeing now is people have to pay to play this.

As for playing in offline mode, there used to be something called ProjectXI, which would let you emulate a server (similar to a private server for WoW.) Square-Enix sent the original programmer of the project a cease and desist letter some time ago.

Basically, you could rework the entire code of the game to make it your style. You could max out all levels of everything on your toon. You could make Bubbly Bernie shit relic weapons like he just ate mexican food. You could be a level 75BLM/75RDM. And you could invite your friends to play on it.

That is probably the closest this game will get to being offline.

But, like I said, it doesn't "exist" anymore.

Rumor has it that a few copies of the program are circulating on torrent sites, but they are extremely hard to find. And imaginging since it's been sometime, will need some programming to bring up to speed. Don't ask me for any links to any websites, I don't know of any.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Battle Adjustments (02/01/2011)

That kind of elitism should be long dead anyway. Should have been dead when Einherjar was created and you could get A Body and E Body from Odin. (That's where I got both my A and my E, btw. Not that we weren't camping kings - we were, but it was much easier to get a drop off a mob we spawned ourselves than have to worry about competing with 5 linkshells for a spawn - and not necessarily even the HQ spawn.) Still, Odin is not terribly easy to get to and/or kill. A lot of linkshells struggled with Einherjar. But the fact remains that SE gave people an alternative to get certain pieces of gear while still managing to keep them rare. Einherjar was pure win. We stopped camping Aspid entirely unless we had a buyer for the egg.

And not only should that form of elitism be dead just from that sort of thing, the fact that the game isn't even remotely the same should have killed a lot of that kind of attitude. Yeah, I leveled RDM when it was still hard - before ToAU. (I think I finished about a month after that, but I can't honestly remember.) I leveled my WHM the real way. I leveled my BLM the hard way (solo bitches). And I leveled SMN the Astral burn way, and you know what? My RDM, WHM, and BLM did not feel cheated by that.

After all the changes in the game, if people are still gonna bitch over things being made easier - things that a lot of people don't even fucking do anymore, then seriously, they need to get over themselves. I would have been happy as hell if they'd upped the drop rates on sky NM pop items and sky god drops after ToAU was released, even, because by that time, only "newb" endgame shells (I use the term newb to mean that they were new to endgame activities) were regularly doing sky. And you know what? No one is going to be saddened that people can gear up faster and thus be useful in other aspects of the game. Yeah, sure it makes me /cry a little to hear of WHMs who bought Erase for 10k when my scroll was 800k but well, that's how it is. That's the nature of MMOs. Things change. Nerfs happen. Don't like it? Don't play.

I don't even play and I can see why changing things like sky gods/sky pops/sky drops should be adjusted.

[Takelli]

Re: Battle Adjustments (02/01/2011)

So either SE nerfs Abyssea (unlikely) or fixes older content so that it's not such a cockblock anymore. 24 hour respawns should be done away with entirely. I *love* Abyssea's 15 minute maximum and never feel like I'm at a loss for things to do inside there.

What elitsts will say: HELL NO!!!!!111!!!11 ONEONEONE!1 wE WORKED FOR THE GEAR, WE DON'T WANT OTHER TO JUST STROLL IN AND GET IT!

Well, I say all NMs should be on a 20-30 min spawn timer, and increase their drops rates as well. Make ALL the gear R/Ex from NMs, and increase the drop rate by a good chunk. Make it so that others don't have to wait WEEKS (Like I did to try and get O-kotes for my sam after 70+ kills, I fucking gave up.), and increase the drop rate of magic, and such. Make the game easier so that we don't have to spend hours upon hours farming just to get one thing.

[Malacite]

Re: Battle Adjustments (02/01/2011)

Yeah, while people have it easier getting to sky and seeing that content, or getting to sea and being able to participate in Jailers or what not, the systems are still stupidly slow. Go up and farm diorites for a few hours, pretty sure that shit hasn't changed. Popping Despot? Gonna be just as slow as before, because repop timers on mobs haven't changed and the spawn rate of Despot is still just as slow.

This is why they need to fix old content. In abyssea, you can get some of the most OP gear in the game with the exception D Ring, though even that's debatable vs Dark Rings with up to +6% PDT & MDT on the same thing. And all these NMs are fairly easily killed, quickly spawned, and drop their stuff often enough with TH & !! Triggers.

So either SE nerfs Abyssea (unlikely) or fixes older content so that it's not such a cockblock anymore. 24 hour respawns should be done away with entirely. I *love* Abyssea's 15 minute maximum and never feel like I'm at a loss for things to do inside there.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle Adjustments (02/01/2011)

Well, I was going to earnest reply in detail, but this popped out at me.

I guess civility is just difficult with some people. (Or maybe you're still sore because I pointed out where COR fell short compared to BRD* these days, despite new Phantom Rolls, plus several other misconceptions you had with FF11?)

You think in very linear terms, so I feel the need to keep you on track when the subject begins to involve creative or critical thinking.

And actually, I must have missed what you said about BRD and COR. I've said those were deeply flawed jobs upon much reflection. It would have been wiser to distribute their skills among the other 18 jobs because jobs like SMN or PUP or DRG wouldn't have fallen so far behind had they and other jobs been given what BRD and COR had.

But it wasn't until late 2009 that SMN got AoE refresh for the party. A lot of updates helped DRG, but what could have really helped DRG shed a lot of misconceptions sooner is if they could have provided something like Haste to a party.

Whatever your perception of BRD and COR is, the fundamental difference for me is BRD gets to high level no matter what - COR has to earn it. Well, unless they want to be a second-rate BRD and not use a gun. See, for me,

In any case, if you refuse to see how the level cap increase let people who couldn't previously experience Sky and many other endgame contents do so now (albeit at a less than "full strength" dose), I don't know what to say. It really is obvious, when your social LS stops saying "I wish we can do Kirin," and instead asking "Who has pop items? Which ones do we need?"

Again with the linear thinking.

The updates did nothing to change how sky WORKS, its just made fights EASIER.

It didn't change how you obtain triggers.
It didn't change how you pop gods.
It didn't change how you fight gods.
It didn't change anything about the routine.

Hence, it made nothing more accessible. You still need a group, perhaps with fewer people if you wish.

You seem to keep missing the point that this is not just about overpowering the content. Much like the mechanics of sky have not changed, neither have the missions they've lifted the caps from.

I don't think the fights were even so much of the problem with CoPs as it was all the bullshit in between,

Mostly the item farming, really. The animas , the tailfeathers for the Ouryu right, the salts for the bomb fight, the PCC Polymer Pumps, the Sacrarium keys. They let you buy some of this stuff later on, sure, but then there's all the RUNNING AROUND, NM popping, the chocobo rentals, burning through warp cudgels - there was a lot of things that could be done to speed things up and reduce frustration

I mean, they were thoughtful enough to give you the option to be transported out of the whole of Riverne or spires upon completion of the mission there, but you can't just drop me in Metalworks after the Moblin BC cutscene is done? I really have to burn a warp cudgel charge or run back there?

I understand part of the mission experience needs a sense of journey, but let's reduce some of the traveling back to end a storyline with a particular NPC.

And as I've said, you could leave the option of capping missions in and just withhold the mission rewards and hidden mission to those that take things down the easy way for endgame access. No CoP or TaA ring, just like no RoZ earring for doing AA the easier way.

Or, even better, you could add an Assault or ToM-ish system for people that have completed missions the classic way and go back and help others with the classic approach. Moogles would be happy to create an Adventurer Assistance Program, I'd imagine. Earn points toward EXP, gil or lucrative gear rewards within that system.

There were a lot of ways SE could have approached it rather than how they've done it.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Battle Adjustments (02/01/2011)

Yeah, while people have it easier getting to sky and seeing that content, or getting to sea and being able to participate in Jailers or what not, the systems are still stupidly slow. Go up and farm diorites for a few hours, pretty sure that shit hasn't changed. Popping Despot? Gonna be just as slow as before, because repop timers on mobs haven't changed and the spawn rate of Despot is still just as slow.

I don't think they necessarily need to adjust how often you can enter Dynamis, Limbus, or Einherjar, but adjusting drop rates in Dynamis was a good start to streamlining things a bit, if that's how they're trying to go. But how's the drop rate on Kitty pants these days? Still fairly low? I'm not saying it should be 100% drop - but maybe it should. Farming diorites is a huge pain in the ass. Getting Despot to spawn is a pain in the ass. You'd think that by the time you went through all of that, SE might throw you a bone. If the goal is just to get to Kirin, the sky god are indeed easier, no doubt, four gods = 8 pop items to pop them, and some of them are horribly annoying to get. Would there be something bad about adjusting either the drop/spawn rates of necessary sky pop NMs, or the drop rate of the sky gods? Or hell, even both?

Not sure how many people are still up doing sky. But sky is the worst, if you ask me. I always hated how time consuming doing anything in sky was.

I guess SE really wants to keep some stuff rare, but if they're so hellbent on making the game easier. Why so inconsistent? It's easy as hell to get from 30 to 90 now (so I hear), why can't everything else be made just as simple? Yeah, it's easier to kill NMs ... if you can get to pop them. If you don't mind waiting three days for them to pop (hi Tiamat). Gaiters should be rare, okay. But if they want to give more people the chance to experience things like kings, why not lower the time between spawns on all NMs but slightly lower the drop rate, as well? That keeps the drops rare (lol at that, but this is an SE mentality) but allows people access to the content. Right?

I kind of see what BBQ is saying. Maybe my explanation will clarify some things.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Battle Adjustments (02/01/2011)

Well, I was going to earnest reply in detail, but this popped out at me.

And before that confuses your precious little mind

I guess civility is just difficult with some people. (Or maybe you're still sore because I pointed out where COR fell short compared to BRD* these days, despite new Phantom Rolls, plus several other misconceptions you had with FF11?)

In any case, if you refuse to see how the level cap increase let people who couldn't previously experience Sky and many other endgame contents do so now (albeit at a less than "full strength" dose), I don't know what to say. It really is obvious, when your social LS stops saying "I wish we can do Kirin," and instead asking "Who has pop items? Which ones do we need?"

Oh, it's simple and obvious to say level cap increase lets player "overpower" the old contents, but the reality is a bit more subtle, and contains more scenario than overpowering strength.

And, by the way, I don't think SE wants everyone to have every gear they want--it's more along the line of letting more players have more opportunities to experience more of the contents.


* No, I didn't say BRD is better than COR unconditionally; it was strictly about the ability to enable delay reduction for melee DDs (and reduce recast time for spells). No foaming at the mouth, please.


* * *

I don't think the two specific adjustment alters the difficulty of the contents directly at all, though, except for skilling up and low level exping. Which, I think most can agree are not much as 'content' goes. Well, the first trip up the levels was really something, but the shine wears off more with each subsequent trip for most people, I think.

Though, I used to really admire SMNs with blue skill numbers for their determinations--and thought MNK with blue Guard skilsl were all lifeless zombie FF11 addicts. They were kind of like Maat's Cap before the Level Sync, Astral Flow party craze.

* * *

Totally random trip down the memory lane.

Totally random, but speaking of the first trip to Lv.75 (yeah yeah, ancient times), I remember taking an hour looking for a spot to take a screenshot of my newly completed RDM Artifact set. I waited extra, too, for the sunrise in-game, to take the picture because I wanted a certain lighting.



(Don't let the sword full you; I was a 95% back line RDM--and happy to be there.)

Back then, every level--no, every 0.1 skill--was something worth celebrating over. hehehe.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle Adjustments (02/01/2011)

Oh, you're calmer now.

Well, first of all, raising level cap to 90 basically already changed Sky, Sea, (H)NM. I mean, my social LS took down a Tiamat the other week, and few of us have even seen it before. (No, it wasn't easy, but we managed somehow. lol. Was fun, by the way.) It's not the kind of change you have in mind, but it is change, and it's real--no one botting Tiamat--now that's a change if anything is a change.

All that changed was that you can overpower this content now, no one even needs to be playing to come to this conclusions. That's not what I'm getting at here.

The problem is not so much that it was easier, but that much of this content has not also been sped up to par. I mean, if your logic is going to be getting everyone on the same page more quickly, then you need to change the rate at which NMs spawn and drops/triggers are obtained. This was what drove the changes to Dynamis and EXP, but apparently not much else.

Its sloppy, if you ask me.

Second way of looking at it: how many people are using those contents? Devs do not have infinite amount of time and resources, so they have to pick and choose what to work on. You want the biggest bang for your gaming dollar, no? Well, dev managers are the same with their budgets--how to make improvements for more people for less dev time.

For years, FFXI made use of all endgame content, which set itself apart from the likes of WoW and so many other MMORPGs. Isn't it nice to work for your gear and have it still be important. No matter what, there was always going to be a new shiny around the corner, but the old ones remained relevant.

And some of it remains relevant, but interests now may lie elsewhere for others and the timesink elements have not changed. They let you spawn gods faster, but you don't obtain triggers any faster than before.

As for missions, why not go this way about it - Some games do let you take the easy way out and let you see the main story and get zone access for your big endgame shinies, however, they are deprived of the rewards of completing the story content for not playing up to par.

In a game like Donkey Kong Country Returns the use of Super Kong on any level in DKCR and you get to complete the level and see the next level, but you are deprived of any and all rewards that level might have offered and this prevents you from accessing a secret area and also the secret world.

And before that confuses your precious little mind, its something that can be applied to any game. Think of it as an un-achievement.

FFXI actually did have one instance that was similar. Ark Angels. You and your friends could just go take down each AA separately then go on to take down Eld'narche, but how many people did it that way?

You didn't get a Suppanomimi for doing it that way. The dev team didn't think that was good enough, so you had to face down all the AAs at once with an alliance.

And that was exactly what people did. Most people didn't even complete RoZ without doing the full AA fight for the Suppa and other earrings.

So lets say that perhaps the team gave you a way to skip doing Three Paths and the Airship fight in CoP, or just made them easier. Yeah, sure, pot fight is hard, too, but those are the ones that really bother everyone. So we make those easier, but no CoP ring for you if you go that route and no access to Apocalypse Nigh for its reward.

I'm sure lots of people would take the easy way out just to get endgame content access. And hey, that's standard issue stuff, so that's fine. But it would solve that nagging problem of no one helping with missions if they were deprived of their lucrative rewards for going the easy way, wouldn't it?

And nothing about the rewarding path would have to be dumbed down, so players could still show they were organized and good listeners for competing CoP. Skill is one thing, attention span and drive are another. People prefer all three, but skill is optional.

If greed is the great motivator of MMOs - and it is - then use greed to motivate players.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Battle Adjustments (02/01/2011)

Nothing against that. I just really wonder what kind of scenarios SE could cook up if they wanted to create a sequel-ish single player game in Vana'diel. The thought intrigues me.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: Battle Adjustments (02/01/2011)

I second that

[NightShayde]

Re: Battle Adjustments (02/01/2011)

I, for one, have been having a blast on FFXI lately.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Battle Adjustments (02/01/2011)

Oh, you're calmer now.

Well, first of all, raising level cap to 90 basically already changed Sky, Sea, (H)NM. I mean, my social LS took down a Tiamat the other week, and few of us have even seen it before. (No, it wasn't easy, but we managed somehow. lol. Was fun, by the way.) It's not the kind of change you have in mind, but it is change, and it's real--no one botting Tiamat--now that's a change if anything is a change.

Second way of looking at it: how many people are using those contents? Devs do not have infinite amount of time and resources, so they have to pick and choose what to work on. You want the biggest bang for your gaming dollar, no? Well, dev managers are the same with their budgets--how to make improvements for more people for less dev time.

So, drop rate is easier to adjust than instancing is to implement. Guess what gets altered about Dynamis? (And, yes, there are more people doing Dynamis than Sky/Sea/HNM.) The metaphor computer people like to use is along the line of "Low hanging fruits get picked." (It has to do with their obsession with trees, I'd imagine.)

As for "player skill", I'm not too obsessed with how other people play unless they are in my alliance. I will say this: people can and still do make wrong choices during battles, and inattentive players still suck. Nothing SE's done changed that, except that with higher HP people have now, we have a bit more time to recover from minor errors.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Battle Adjustments (02/01/2011)

@Aksannyi: That sounds like a spin off, and a somewhat lazily designed one since it's mostly about converting MMORPG content into single player format. lol. Well, if there are enough people who'd buy it, SE surely would be interested in making it. It's a bit sad, but even the likes of Pixar and SE are into recycling story/characters and worlds these days.

Not exactly what I mean, though. Maybe a spin-off would be kind of what it is, maybe sometime 50 years in the future or something. (Vana'diel was restored to blahblahblah but oh look, a new threat looms!) I don't think that turning the current game known as FFXI into an offline game works. There's so much of that model that is specifically designed in an MMO style. You don't do "raids" (so to speak) in offline games. You do dungeons, solve puzzles usually, and beat a dungeon boss. Which is essentially what you would do in say, Dynamis, but after you defeat a boss in a dungeon in an offline MMO, he usually stays dead and the dungeon is cleared. You're not usually farming dungeons for gear. XP maybe.

I would like to see something different, but set in Vana'diel. I think that people who are FF fans but not MMO fans would appreciate something like that. Do I think SE would ever do it? No, I definitely don't. Do I think it would be cool if they did do something like that? Yes, I definitely do. Do I think that the opportunity to revisit Vana'diel as Joe Protagonist and follow a sequence in which I Save the World (again) would be sweet? Yes. I think there is enough space somewhere in the story (or like I said, set sometime after the period of Vana'diel which players of this game currently inhabit) to create some kind of linear RPG game in this existing world.

People would of course bitch. "OMG they are so lazy they didn't even create a new world for this game, what the fuck SE." But if people realized that FFXI-Offline were basically the "alternative" to playing FFXI and still getting to experience the world of Vana'diel in the same way that X players experience Spira, I think it could have a moderately successful - if not very successful - following.

Certainly better than HDing all of Vana'diel and rereleasing the entire game and pretending it's FFXIV like some people apparently seem to want.