Abyssea Experiences

[MrMageo]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

Dude, don't freaking encourage him. You aren't even arguing anything any more, anyway, since nobody is contesting your claim that you can outdo bad DDs, but not good ones.

I don't care if it gets contested. It is my point, A RDM should not be able to walk in and out damage anything other than its equals, which are THF, NIN, DNC, BLU. Those are the only melee jobs a RDM should be able to out perform melee wise, anything else will just chew us up with WS usage. That is not my point, it is simply a statement that.

If a DD is under performing against me, then they are doing something very very wrong. (and no I do not consider those 4 jobs I listed to be DD I consider them utility/hybrid jobs, as they have functions above and beyond simply dealing damage.)

If you look at the list of jobs, the single handers fared relatively poor by comparison, notably the BLU DNC THF. All of which have other things they can do. From the list provided there is limited room for healers. Especially once you include the fact there needs to BLM's and/or SCH's to achieve Azure Light. So All I am saying is while yes he has shown the DPS to support his claim, he has not shown information about other things these jobs can be doing. Such as healing with TP in the DNC's case, Or healing with Blue Magic in the BLU's case, both of which take time from melee or other but still counts time towards DPS. He has not provided any info on who is getting the limited buffs available. Was the top 3-4 DD getting haste, were they in the DNC group benefiting from a Samba, or ACC steps. The THF pulled and therfore his time engaged is bloated to his actual time doing damage. As for the bigger DD were they able to use berserk/hasso etc full time? was there enough support to allow them to go all out or did they have to check themselves due to overall lack of support. Where is the buff list, where is the magic damage list and where is the healing done list. All of these are valid precursors to the damage potential of DD's. Especially in large groups.

It is a reason why so many jobs get a bad rap. This number stigma is stupid, since the only number people care about is that damage done number. It is why (this is another example YM) RDM gets scoffed at, it gets laughed at because it performs to about 80-85% of a big DD. But people fail to realize that RDM also healed for thousands of HP provided buffs and debuffs WHILE doing 80-85% of a big DD's output. I have seen it time and time again, which is why I want to see more of the lists pertaining to the DNC and BLU before I pass judgment, both of these jobs can spend a lot of time supporting with utiliy spells and abilities. (and by extension I want to see what buffs and support the bigger DD had, before I simply pass them off as lazy).

Im not saying that some of them probabaly weren't lazy, or weren't eating food but to blanket a whole party based on such little evidence is ridiculous, he has basically provided information that only supports his theory as to why it was, instead of supplying all the data. Whole Parse or no Parse, otherwise it is a waste of his time posting it, and a waste of our time reading it.

[Karinya]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

Lv.70+, PLDs don't really 'tank' in exp situations beyond a first Provoke and/or Flash--the critter should turn to the DD as soon as the first WS is used. Why wouldn't a PLD bring DD TP/WS sets?

First of all, I don't think people necessarily approach Abyssea as something analogous to a colibri party; maybe they should (aside from bringing food!), if the mobs are really a complete joke, but if they treat it more like Dynamis or other endgame zones where letting the DD tank with their faces gets them killed pretty darn quick, then they would have a reason to keep on their enmity sets and try to recapture hate before someone gets their face ripped off, while cursing out the DDs that WS early without TA.

But that's an issue that will probably work itself out as more people get more experience with Abyssea. Personally I *prefer* fighting dangerous mobs, and the tactics that come out of that (including DDs being responsible for watching their own hate or TAing their WS on someone who can take it), but if Abyssea isn't like that, then it isn't, and you should adapt tactics accordingly.

More importantly, though, you were using a mixed DW build with a high dmg main hand and Joyeuse offhand. Any PLD that is Provoking first or at any other time is, necessarily, not doing that. Even if they have the other DD gear, they're still not going to approach your overall damage or WS damage. If they use the Joyeuse (assuming they have it) they'll have weak WS and if they use a high dmg weapon they'll have slow TP gain -- and whichever way they choose, they won't have the delay reduction of DW2 or Suppa's enhancement to it.

*That's* why you need to know back in town that you're coming as DD -- because mixed DW builds rely on DW, so you have to choose SJ accordingly. No PLD/WAR can duplicate your DD build regardless of what gear they have access to.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

Ill argue that your data is incomplete, and thus useless.

There are so many variables you left out it is ridiculous. Post the whole unaltered parse

Dude, don't freaking encourage him. You aren't even arguing anything any more, anyway, since nobody is contesting your claim that you can outdo bad DDs, but not good ones.

[MrMageo]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

I'd argue your rants are useless, especially when you don't even know what you're ranting against. (See above regarding DPS.)

You can argue that all you want, Ill argue that your data is incomplete, and thus useless. how many mobs did you fight, how mny mobs were the melee engaged but not swinging, (ie. waiting on magic kills). What were certain jobs doing. Where is the magic damage to see what the BLU did, where is the healing done to see what the DNC did, where is the buff durations to see who had what buffs vs others not having them.

There are so many variables you left out it is ridiculous. Post the whole unaltered parse, not just what you consider suits your needs.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

I have no intention of finishing, or even buying, ASA though.

Thing is, though, those pants are probably the most worthwhile (and most definitely the most flexible) of each of the three final add-on rewards. Unfortunately, like the other two add-on final rewards, they are by a wide margin the most worthwhile thing about the add-on at all.

Which is why I, personally, am holding out for an Ultimate Collection 2. Buying ASA itself? Pass. ASA as a bonus with Abyssea (and that Nexus Cape to boot)? Sure why not.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

And I wouldn't expect every member of an alliance to be up to *my* level of gear, let alone yours. ISTM that we may have seriously different points of view on what is "decent" gear and what is "super".

Don't need my level of gear to beat my PLD on a DD job in terms of damage output, I think. Plus at Lv.78, the cheap and easy to get Perle set pretty much closes the gap for any job which can use it.

I'm lucky enough to have joyeuse,

Three out four PLDs in that alliance had it. Most PLDs I've seen in Abyssea had it. Heck, many of the DW WARs used Joyeuse off-hand. It's just not that rare, though I wouldn't call it a must have.

Knowing back in town that they're going to want you to DD is a huge asset which there's no way of knowing whether the other PLD had that advantage or not.)

Lv.70+, PLDs don't really 'tank' in exp situations beyond a first Provoke and/or Flash--the critter should turn to the DD as soon as the first WS is used. Why wouldn't a PLD bring DD TP/WS sets?

Hmm... A puller is sometimes "engaged" when they're running back to camp with a mob chasing them, but obviously doing 0 DPS during that time. Also, I sometimes unlock and run off to find the next mob without disengaging in order to avoid spending time on the disengage animation, particularly at the hectic pace of Abyssea (have only pulled there once). Can the parser compensate for those seconds where you are technically engaged but not actually swinging at anything? Or do they just get included in the denominator of the DPS calculation while contributing nothing to the numerator? It's obvious how that would skew the result.

Good points. I don't know how KParser does DPS calculation on that level of detail. Judging from the melee accuracy and Dancing Edge numbers, that THF probably wasn't all that strong regardless of how the DPS may be skewed to his disadvantage, but I also agree that damage output from a good puller isn't as important. (Wouldn't be a factor at all in a fast kill alliance--but that alliance wasn't one of those.)

In that particular alliance, the DNC was originally the puller when I first arrived. I guess I got it stuck in my head that THF was (originally) a DD. Reflecting on what you wrote, perhaps the nearly useless DNC should be replaced first.

Can you TA onto a member of a different party in your alliance?

Yes. Done all the time in places like Sky.

I probably wouldn't have invited him [turtle PLD] in the first place, but ISTM that inviting him, having him come out to the party, and then booting him is a much more extraordinary step that shouldn't be taken simply because a PLD showed up expecting to play like PLD normally do.

Well, the whole thing was about "If you were to run things, what would you do differently?"

I'd give any job a chance after I filled the critical slots, and I would let a PLD know I expect /NIN (but not not necessarily DW), plus DD gear and food. Wouldn't take up four slots with PLDs, but one or two should be fine.

* * *

Probably shouldn't bother, but can't resist a few pokes... lol.

If you get into a gimp group like that where a PLD is #3 on DPS why don't you just leave and find a better group?

1. Wasn't looking at the performance tab when I was in party--didn't have it open. (Kparser can record data while displaying no info--it's actually a good way of running it on slower computers. Finish parse, then open up tabs to view results.)

2. The only reason I joined was to play around with my new toy, Organics--I didn't need exp, and was already nearly merited out.

Also Why the hell does DPS matter. I am quite confident I could out DPS most all of those Jobs, but ill bet at the end of the day the DRG's MNK's and SAM's do more damage than me.

You're confusing Total DPS with Melee DPS. Total DPS in KParser includes melee damage, additional effect damage, spike damage (think Ice Spikes spell/gear), ranged damage, spell damage, and, yes, WS damage.

Of course good DRG/MNK/SAM/Other DDs will out damage you--and out DPS you.

Case in point, your data is useless, DPS is redundant, and the group was destined to fail from the get go.

I'd argue your rants are useless, especially when you don't even know what you're ranting against. (See above regarding DPS.)

p.s. As laughable as that alliance was, I finished my merits.

[MrMageo]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

I have no intention of finishing, or even buying, ASA though. Shocked that you're suggesting Shield though, seeing as I thought you would recommend /NIN if you purely wanted to focus on damage dealing on RDM.

From a strict Damage stand point, technically single wielding is Higher DPS for us. Using Enspell 2 is as well. Death Blossom is one of our best WS's it is statistically equal to vorpal, and slightly behind Evis for potential, However the mods on it play more in our favor thanks to our MND and STR bein accounted for (not just STR or DEX) this gives us another 20 DMG or so per hit (pre pdif) than we can get from vorpal or evis.

Now single wield opens up max haste potential. Should you be in an appropriate setting (ex an abyssea party). Gear haste of 25% Self haste 40% x2 march 61% and 71% haste samba. (get to it in a moment). That makes your joytoy swing at
224*.29 = 64.96/1.45 = 44.8/60 = .74 seconds (accounting for joyeuse DA) This essentially means you will be near constantly swinging and getting TP constantly. (for comparison sake 224+178*.80*.21 = 93.26/1.45 = 64.31/60 1.07

This is highly useful because of our spell casting requirements. This means we don't really lose much time. Lowering the haste even 1% at this rate is like knocking of 3% speed.

224*.30 = 67.2/1.45 = 46.34/60 = .77 seconds (3% slower)
224+178*.80*.30 = 96.46/1.45 = 66.53/60 = 1.10 (3% slower)

so DW will attack 1.10/.74 = 1.48 = 48% slower

That means for every 2 Attack round joyeuse sw takes 3 which is 18~36 TP vs a potential 10-30

Which means you are going to get a WS 10/18 = 55%(45) - 30/36 = 83%(17)
17-35% faster (avg of 26%)

So a better WS, more often.

Lastly we come to Enspell II. The reason we use this is because ~50% of the time we are going to get a Joyeuse DA. Which means in a max haste situation we will be getting haste samba very often. Now it will not be 100% of the time, so the above math is a little bit out. But it will be there, meaning we will be able to apply enspell damage 4.5% faster on averae than if we had DW weapons hit. We also are doing the maximum damage with enspells we can (actually more since enspell 1 on joyeuse only does 20+20*45 = 29. And our en II will do 18*2 = 36dmg. (not doing resists or +DMG.)

so we attack faster, weapon skill more, and apply more Enspell damage.

As for the subjob I choose DNC for the fact it has utility abilities (TP heals + TP erase + Aspir Samaba + Drain Samba + Steps) Basically I can apply 25% DEF down myself (dia III box step) 20 evasion down (gravity, quickstep and one of the flourishes), and -40ish resistance to any element I want (enspell 2+Stutter step+Death Blossom) as well as all my other tricks and tools. (if going to staff swap I dump my TP into steps or heals before hand so IT IS NOT WASTED) this allows me to never waste my TP and still apply things like Slow or Para IF a staff is required. DNC also offers me an ACC bonus and a Subtle Blow.

Frankly I see no competition for subs and no reason to use more than 1 weapon. It will out DoT a DW RDM, it will out WS a DW RDM, it will out perform in pretty near ever department.

That is why I choose DNC I get every thing I want, and in situations where DW may be preferable (such as self haste only) I can just switch weapons in and DW.

In Marinara Pizza, all things are possible. If you're using it and they aren't (and a lot of them don't), that shifts things way in your favor.

This is true, and probably one of things that im glad they put in. A food that RDM and DD's can eat alike that provides solid buffs to both ACC and ATK. This should be the go to exp food for nearly every job. (melee wise)


Sorry I rambled there for a bit....

[Ketaru]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

Have you tried the following (should only need dusk +1 to cap out on haste)

W.T (5%)
Golird (4%)
DuskG (3%)
DuskL (2%)
Headlong (or better just an ex.) (3%)
ASA legs (3%)

Thats 20% with
Swift belt + (4-6%)
Dusk +1 x2 (7%)
Sentinel S. (1%)

with those items as well as the former items RDM caps haste =)

Close.

W Turban
Goliard
DuskG
DuskL
Swift Belt
Sentinel S

I have no intention of finishing, or even buying, ASA though. Shocked that you're suggesting Shield though, seeing as I thought you would recommend /NIN if you purely wanted to focus on damage dealing on RDM.

I am quite confident I could out DPS most all of those Jobs, but ill bet at the end of the day the DRG's MNK's and SAM's do more damage than me.

In Marinara Pizza, all things are possible. If you're using it and they aren't (and a lot of them don't), that shifts things way in your favor.

[MrMageo]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

can't argue with numerical proof though. So I gotta give the point to Itaz, However I don't agree with booting people from a time event, its not a meripo, people have to wait hours to get stones, if it was just generic exp sure, but to invite someone then boot them after an hour which takes 40 hours or a good long abyssea party to get the time like that is just as dickish as them not performing well.

That aside if it was to be an awesome super wicked party Id remove the following if I was a super dick.

Anyone under 75% ACC would be gone. Which leaves you with a PLD and a couple DRG's. Heck of a party right there if you ask me. If DD can't hit 85% ACC (the statistical break point for Haste vs ACC gear) then they have no business being there, in an elitest world.

What I am curious to know however is the following.

If you get into a gimp group like that where a PLD is #3 on DPS why don't you just leave and find a better group? Why should your opinion count? Also Why the hell does DPS matter. I am quite confident I could out DPS most all of those Jobs, but ill bet at the end of the day the DRG's MNK's and SAM's do more damage than me. Its the same deal as colibri parties where I out DPS 2 handers, but they more than make up for it with 1K-2K WS's where I can't break 1K.

It is fine and all to show this crap, but it is a minor drop into the bucket of usefulness. How often did they WS, how often did they sit on hundreds of TP because it was nuke kills, or non WS kills. Its easy to point and say so and so isn't contributing, but when it comes down to it, SAM's DRG's DRK's WAR's get most of their damage from WS they are not a DoT group, 1 Handers are DoT groups, but lack the WS generally, jobs like THF and BLU make up for this using SATA and Chain Affinity to add damage to their otherwise gimp ass WS. Where the issue really lies is in party composition TBH. 15 jobs listed there. leaving 3 spots in an ally for support. 1 SMN at least is present, so that leaves 2 spots for healers and support. (possibly a bit more based on potential cycling.)

What I do not understand is how you can fault these people for a gimp set up to begin with 90% of melee DD base ther gear around having at last 1 support job. We also know that 90% of melee suck without one, it has always been the case. Epeens are only so big because of BRD's COR's and Haste. Had you had any of these buffs on the big DD your little list would be quite different. Just because the gimp group was gimp isn't a reason to fault all these people for a failed group.

DD should have a BRD or a COR with a WHM or RDM (or/WHM) for haste. That is a huge drawback to many jobs production. Hell 1 handed DD with no haste other than NIN or DNC are gimped from the get go.

All in all this party was doomed to fail from the get go, it is hardly the DD's fault entirely. Whoever built the party is the real culprit for the retard title. You think after so many years of being stupid back in the day ad thinking bards sucked (2001-2006) and the recent years of them being treated like gods for being able to increase DD potential close to 25% each (like adding another DD), the retard who built this party would have brought 1 or two.

Should the DD look at their gear and fix things so they are ready without support, yes, but after 4 years of DD/DD/DD/BRD/COR/RDM most assume there will be a support job providing the buffs they need so their gear functions best.

Case in point, your data is useless, DPS is redundant, and the group was destined to fail from the get go.

[Romyro]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

HA ><. Hilarious

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

@Itaz: How normal people argue:

Bob: Point.
Alice: Counter-point.

How you argue:

Bob: Point.
Itazura: Player--------------Total-DPS---M.Acc-%---WS.Avg--Notes-------------------------------------------------------------

[MrMageo]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

; ; I need Dusk+1 to get 20% Haste...think I have 18 or 19% right now.

Have you tried the following (should only need dusk +1 to cap out on haste)

W.T (5%)
Golird (4%)
DuskG (3%)
DuskL (2%)
Headlong (or better just an ex.) (3%)
ASA legs (3%)

Thats 20% with
Swift belt + (4-6%)
Dusk +1 x2 (7%)
Sentinel S. (1%)

with those items as well as the former items RDM caps haste =)

With the cost/ and ease of getting those items a RDM that chooses to melee should have no issue getting 20% the latter ones still require luck/gil/work to get. As far as ATK is concerned with cap sword and dagger skills and 5/5 STR merits I sit at 357 ATK in TP gear (WS set puts me at 391) (a 76 taru RDM so it will be higher at 80) with food I can get to just under400 ATK, with bard and cor buffs, I sit in the area of about 450 ATK on average.

That is simply from my skill the small amount of +ATK from gear, and my LOL STR. This is jut as easy to hit as the haste.
As for ACC I get
10 from rings, 7 from neck, 2 from my range, 5 from blau, 7 from ASA pants, and 10 from /DNC +15 from composure. For a total of +56 ACC. Again with skill and dex this puts me at around 355 ACC pre food, 394 post food for an ACC rate just over 85% vs colibri. (I have yet to test on anything in abyssea but will do so once I reach cap, that way I can make an accurate reading of what gear is needed to hit at 85% without losing much on haste.)

So while it requires a little study, the ease of making a respectable DD build (that is close to most other single hand DD's) is relatively easy. Most if not all DD should be in this area, if not beyond it. Especially with the ease of some of the new DD gear, that RDM is left off.

Now that being said, if anyone, under performs against me, while I melee, and still help with haste's refreshes' and cure's then there is something seriously wrong. If anyone under performs against me, when I am just acting as a DD (ie. no additional support outside personal buffs) then there is still something wrong.

A good way to see if all your DD's are functioning is to put a RDM in there, if they finish ahead of some DD (especially against 2 handers) then you know who to either kick, or not invite again.

[Karinya]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

As for my gears:

TP:
Organics/Joyeuse/Lamian kaman (I think? Don't have anything range/ammo, DD wise)
Askar/PCC/Brutal/Suppanomimi
Haubergeon +1/Homam/Ecphoria/Blood Ring
Amemet +1/Swift/Homam/Aurum

WS (Vorpal Blade):
Optical Hat
Hectatomb Mittens
Askar Dirs
Potent Belt
Perle Solerets

Food:
Marinara Pizza +1

Not a bad setup, but not exactly amazing gear in every slot. I should also say that I have 4 Sword Merits, but that's not exactly uncommon for PLDs.

OK... I've been playing for 5+ years (although not always a lot of hours per week) and I have about half that stuff. (Lacking the ZNM stuff, homam hands and the big money pieces -- and swift belt, which I could probably get now if I wanted to take the time away from trials. On the other hand I do have soil gorget, for what that's worth.) And I wouldn't expect every member of an alliance to be up to *my* level of gear, let alone yours. ISTM that we may have seriously different points of view on what is "decent" gear and what is "super".

I'm lucky enough to have joyeuse, which is obviously a pretty crucial element of your build, but I wouldn't expect it of everyone (and of course the PLD/WARs don't have the option of a high damage main hand/joyeuse offhand build, short of going back to town to change SJ, anyway -- even if they have that high tier ZNM drop in the first place. Knowing back in town that they're going to want you to DD is a huge asset which there's no way of knowing whether the other PLD had that advantage or not.)

Total DPS only counts the time you are engaged, so even if a THF only engages 10 seconds every two fight, after a few hours of that, DPS becomes a good indicator of that THF's capability. Using Total DPS, you can compare a melee who was around for 300 fights with another who was only around for 150 fights.

That particular THF was meleeing the critter he pulled almost every time, so the DPS posted for him is a solid indicator of his not-so-solid damage capability. (i.e. The WHM/NIN can easily beat him.)

Hmm... A puller is sometimes "engaged" when they're running back to camp with a mob chasing them, but obviously doing 0 DPS during that time. Also, I sometimes unlock and run off to find the next mob without disengaging in order to avoid spending time on the disengage animation, particularly at the hectic pace of Abyssea (have only pulled there once). Can the parser compensate for those seconds where you are technically engaged but not actually swinging at anything? Or do they just get included in the denominator of the DPS calculation while contributing nothing to the numerator? It's obvious how that would skew the result.

More generally, I'd be reluctant to boot an Abyssea puller for poor DPS if they were doing a decent job pulling, regardless of whether they were engaging at all -- if you replaced them with someone who was a better DPS but worse puller, you'd be worse off overall, and you have plenty of other slots for DPS.

We had two PLDs who were flashing and provoking, and I think I was the only person who liked to WS at the start of the fight. Some SA's should still be possible, and TA onto the blue-armor PLD would've been great.

It's really hard to judge without video. Players and mobs move around, as you'll probably remember if you ever leveled THF yourself, and an Abyssea puller doesn't have much time in camp to line up a shot. (When I pulled there as COR, I had trouble just keeping up a couple of rolls with Luzaf's Ring sometimes. I don't like to think what my DPS would have shown.)

Can you TA onto a member of a different party in your alliance?

(I bagged on the THF, but that PLD really was the most useless member.)

I agree, but it's not necessarily his fault he came to a party with too many tanks. Obviously if he was asked in advance if he could DD and that was his idea of DD, he fails at it, but it's not what a PLD would expect to bring to a party if they're not warned and a lot of the good DD PLD gear is hard to get *and* not necessarily a priority for many PLD with more of a tanking orientation, so some don't have it at all and others might leave it in MH if they're not told in advance to bring it.

I probably wouldn't have invited him in the first place, but ISTM that inviting him, having him come out to the party, and then booting him is a much more extraordinary step that shouldn't be taken simply because a PLD showed up expecting to play like PLD normally do.

There are some PLD that take the job beyond the ordinary idea of it and I respect that (and try to do some of that myself), but ISTM that it's foolish to expect that of *every* PLD, particularly if it's not discussed with them before inviting them. Any random WAR, DRK, RNG, etc. would have showed up ready to DD and probably out-DD'd him by a factor of 3 or more, so why invite an unknown PLD to that slot at all?

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

You have way too much time on your hands.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

To clarify, my idea is actually to keep replacing AFKers and other non-performers until alliance can kill in 30 seconds on average. (Some leader may choose to take it to 25 seconds, or eve 20 seconds, but I think that's too demanding--decently geared DDs using food should be able bring down targets in 30 seconds--no relic weapon or super equipment needed.)

The easiest non-performers to spot are those melee DDs with low parser output, but should use DPS and melee accuracy instead of total damage because people going in and out of the alliance skew the total damage in favor of those who were there longer.

* * *

Wow, 4 PLD? And only one using a DD build? The main thing that stands out to me is the huge number of PLD, honestly.

Started at two, and when I joined, became three. Got another one later. (Being an NA group, people do come and go a bit.)

Actually, did you noticed two of the PLD/WAR out DPS'ed the THF? (One by more than 100% lol.) I'd get rid of the THF before those two.

As for my gears:

TP:
Organics/Joyeuse/Lamian kaman (I think? Don't have anything range/ammo, DD wise)
Askar/PCC/Brutal/Suppanomimi
Haubergeon +1/Homam/Ecphoria/Blood Ring
Amemet +1/Swift/Homam/Aurum

WS (Vorpal Blade):
Optical Hat
Hectatomb Mittens
Askar Dirs
Potent Belt
Perle Solerets

Food:
Marinara Pizza +1

Not a bad setup, but not exactly amazing gear in every slot. I should also say that I have 4 Sword Merits, but that's not exactly uncommon for PLDs.

Another interesting thing is that Garuda apparently outdamaged everyone... unless there were 2+ SMN using Garuda and the parser combined their damage.

Heh. I meant to delete Garuda once I decided not to break out melee DoT from total DoT, but forgot to do that

Originally, wanted to show that Garuda melee'ed better than some of our DDs. Total DPS isn't useful for comparing SMN to melee, because they often usually summon avatar, BP, then dismiss avatar, spiking the DPS.

(Melee to melee comparison can be fair, as well as you understand what DPS measures and the limitation with that metric. I don't consider it useful for nuker to nuker, or SMN to SMN comparisons.)

I'm impressed by the acc numbers from the DRGs (especially with one joining at 74), but then, we do have acc bonus, and 2/3 had Hasso as well. :D

*shrug* It's no secret I always liked pet jobs, even though I haven't leveled them.

If the THF/NIN wasn't pulling or popping chests he might have gotten more mileage out of a more DD-ish sub, but sadly that seems like a lost art for THFs these days.

No, that's not true; this is where DPS figure shows its worth.

Total DPS only counts the time you are engaged, so even if a THF only engages 10 seconds every two fight, after a few hours of that, DPS becomes a good indicator of that THF's capability. Using Total DPS, you can compare a melee who was around for 300 fights with another who was only around for 150 fights.

That particular THF was meleeing the critter he pulled almost every time, so the DPS posted for him is a solid indicator of his not-so-solid damage capability. (i.e. The WHM/NIN can easily beat him.)

The dynamics of abyssea undercut THF DD pretty bad, though (try lining up a SA or TA in there). Dagger weaponskills suck without SA and/or TA, on top of the fact that daggers are not so great to begin with.

We had two PLDs who were flashing and provoking, and I think I was the only person who liked to WS at the start of the fight. Some SA's should still be possible, and TA onto the blue-armor PLD would've been great. (I bagged on the THF, but that PLD really was the most useless member.)

And from a DD perspective, DNC is like a THF with lower skill that can't *ever* get off a SA or TA - either you're getting them for support/healing functions as well as damage, or don't bother. (That one possibly should have been kicked, but for his behavior, not just low DPS. I do support kicking people whose obvious stupidity is hindering the functioning of the alliance, if they refuse to correct their behavior when asked to do so.)

I included DNC mostly to show how bad the THF and BLU were--not that DNC was an shining example of what the job is capable of except "Not dying very fast."

BLU is apparently just not as much of a melee as people think it is. Is this parse counting his spell damage? Did he have Battery Charge or some other source of refresh? Most sword WS are pretty bad too, as the parse shows.

The Total DPS figures accounts for all forms of direct damage (but not slip damage like poison effect). Not sure if he was getting Refresh.

I'd suspect the low acc people were skilling up because they did 55-75 at the leypoint or something, but that doesn't explain the guy with Sanguine Blade and ~50% hit rate -- he has to be fairly high level, and skilled up too. And you probably would have mentioned if he was fighting in full Koenig. XD

Didn't check gear, but saw Homam something or other. Except for the blue-armored one, think the PLDs all had Homam hands/legs?

Overall, I sort of see your point, but I don't think it's an accident that most of the one-handers are coming up at the bottom of the chart, either.

The counter point would be that if everyone just take care of accuracy, have reasonable TP/WS set, and get the Cruor buffs, we would've been killing fast enough that I wouldn't be thinking of replacing anyone if I was the leader.

P.S. You may not have had BRD or COR, but you had DNC and BLU -- were they keeping up eva or def debuffs? That would put a dent in their personal damage but improve everyone else's, in a way a parser can't really account for. But not everyone knows the power of those types of abilities or uses them to full effectiveness.

I lied when I said DNC was soloing--most of the time, he was duo'ing with the THF on the newly pulled critter, after the THF started pulling. (He was soloing when he pulled.) Not that he was using Haste Samba anyway. He did used steps, but since he'd disengage and switch mob as soon as one of the PLDs use Provoke, I doubt the melees DDs got much out of his steps. No one else except maybe the THF benefited from his Samba, that for sure.

BLU had one Seedspray during the 13 fights (he came just before I left). No self haste; probably wasn't high enough level for that spell, yet. (I really should've screenshot the alliance. lol. It's a pain estimating levels from WS and JAs and spells...)

* * *

This is your primary flaw in thinking. Srsly.

Because we're all incapable of looking at the performance numbers and decide whether what I recommend has any merit for at least that alliance?

Or because it's not polite to say a particular THF is lousy on the DD front, if on average he did less than 1/3 of output of my PLD, for every second engaged? Or because I should make assertions without ever revealing what data lead to to any particular thought?

Keep in mind I've not said the numbers proved anything (except maybe that alliance had some rather weak DDs). It's are just data for consideration, really, and I don't think I've ever pretended otherwise.