Abyssea Experiences

[Karinya]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

Abyssea has introduced a lot of NMs where making sure the enemy's attention is focused on a single player.

Well, I haven't done much with Abyssea NMs yet because I'm not done leveling. But if people are doing Dynamis and other level 75 endgame without real tanks at level 80 and just bouncing hate with /NIN (successfully), anything designed for 80-85s can probably be done that way by next year, too.

But you're right, I should have said tanking is dead in exp and in non-HNM content (which will soon be almost everything), not quite the whole game.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

Although I do some pretty stupid things, like equip Haste gear into Refresh and Haste macros

That's not stupid.

At least, I hope that's not stupid, because I do that... I also have fast cast/haste gear in -na and Erase macros. Really hate the recast on Blindna and Erase, in particular.

[Ketaru]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

Yeah, I know, all DD/NIN is the best way to deal with everything in every setting. Sigh. At that point you might as well not bother bringing a PLD/anything, let alone one geared for tanking. (If you're not going to take hits with your armor and shield, you might as well not have them, and have the superior damage and hate generation of WAR/NIN, NIN/WAR, or NIN/DRK.) Tanking is dead in this game, holding hate on the same person for more than a few seconds is self-defeating, and there's no reason not to have a SAM/NIN, MNK/NIN or whatever as main assist if they have 3 shadows and some minimal idea what they're doing. And THF will never be able to use their job defining abilities again because every mob will turn every few seconds.

I wonder if SE is ever going to do anything about all of that, or if they even think it's a problem.

Abyssea has introduced a lot of NMs where making sure the enemy's attention is focused on a single player. Here is how your typical NM fight goes:

The PLD tanks.
The healers heal.
The nukers nuke and deal their respective DoT forums.
The supports enfeeble and enhance.
The damage dealers deal damage and do whatever they can to make sure the NM stays in control and faces the tank.
Treasure Hunter is just as job defining as any of THF's other abilities, so they're there to make of that too.
And yes, even pet jobs have their place on more than a few of the NMs in Abyssea that are too dangerous for conventional melee to approach.

Whether you make those NMs part of your plan in playing the game is up to you.

[Neverslip]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

I haven't been SAM/WAR in so long... the experience price from KO would be worth it for me at this point.

[Karinya]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

Yeah, I know, all DD/NIN is the best way to deal with everything in every setting. Sigh. At that point you might as well not bother bringing a PLD/anything, let alone one geared for tanking. (If you're not going to take hits with your armor and shield, you might as well not have them, and have the superior damage and hate generation of WAR/NIN, NIN/WAR, or NIN/DRK.) Tanking is dead in this game, holding hate on the same person for more than a few seconds is self-defeating, and there's no reason not to have a SAM/NIN, MNK/NIN or whatever as main assist if they have 3 shadows and some minimal idea what they're doing. And THF will never be able to use their job defining abilities again because every mob will turn every few seconds.

I wonder if SE is ever going to do anything about all of that, or if they even think it's a problem.

[Ketaru]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

Yes, she actually has a TP set and a WS set--and an absurd hMP set, impressive MND+ build for Cure V, and a very nice Devotion set--probably doesn't/can't carry all that when she wants to melee stuff, though...)

Probably. Maybe she might if you count Satchel, but I don't (I don't even have a Satchel or Sacurity thingamajig). Although I do some pretty stupid things, like equip Haste gear into Refresh and Haste macros so I'm pretty much walking around with both my mage gear and half of my melee gear and that's without even carrying a sword.

Still, it makes me smile how fast my RDM/SCH can cast these buffs now.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

NIN and THF haven't been considered DDs for some time now.

Although, Nin is really so far down the chain right now even full Usukane does little for their damage.

Is NIN really that bad of a DD?

I think I had pretty reasonable gears on SAM, but at Lv.76, a NIN77 managed to beat my output by a small but convincing margin in a pickup group fighting Mamool Ja. Getting out DD'ed in PUGs didn't happen very often--in fact, that NIN is the only one I can recall at the moment.

Really wished I check his gear. lol.

* * *

When the players are known quantities, I'd bet on the player rather than the job. Wouldn't be surprised if one of my LS' WHM can out damage half of the DDs I've seen in Abyssea; with Prudence Rod in the sub slot, she's one mean, Hexa Strike spamming machine.

(Yes, she actually has a TP set and a WS set--and an absurd hMP set, impressive MND+ build for Cure V, and a very nice Devotion set--probably doesn't/can't carry all that when she wants to melee stuff, though...)

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

No, but I "should" be out DD'ing THF or NIN via melee simply for being geared better. If the NIN is rocking Usukane with a perfectly augmented OAT Magian Katana, then by all means, outdamage deal me. If the NIN is doing it in a Psilos Mantle, then well...don't.

Oh, I'm not debating this fact. Although, Nin is really so far down the chain right now even full Usukane does little for their damage.

[Ketaru]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

Not sure if you think being an angsty, defensive little prick helps convey your point or if you're just looking for some love but the fact remains RDM should not be out DD'ing THF or NIN via melee simply because those jobs have little to no use outside of that role.

No, but I "should" be out DD'ing THF or NIN via melee simply for being geared better. If the NIN is rocking Usukane with a perfectly augmented OAT Magian Katana, then by all means, outdamage deal me. If the NIN is doing it in a Psilos Mantle, then well...don't.

Any clearer? Ketaru brought the subject of superior gear up in his response to me but considering I was responding to MrMageo, who never stipulated that, it has zero relevance to the discussion.

A RDM should not be able to walk in and out damage anything other than its equals, which are THF, NIN, DNC, BLU. Those are the only melee jobs a RDM should be able to out perform melee wise

Being "able to" doesn't even remotely imply that it always, or even usually, will.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

Ketaru and Mageo are saying that, given good enough gear, we are.

Clearly you need to work on your reading comprehension.

A RDM should not be able to walk in and out damage anything other than its equals, which are THF, NIN, DNC, BLU. Those are the only melee jobs a RDM should be able to out perform melee wise

Any clearer? Ketaru brought the subject of superior gear up in his response to me but considering I was responding to MrMageo, who never stipulated that, it has zero relevance to the discussion.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

First of all, I don't think people necessarily approach Abyssea as something analogous to a colibri party; maybe they should (aside from bringing food!), if the mobs are really a complete joke, but if they treat it more like Dynamis or other endgame zones where letting the DD tank with their faces gets them killed pretty darn quick, then they would have a reason to keep on their enmity sets and try to recapture hate before someone gets their face ripped off, while cursing out the DDs that WS early without TA.

My Dynamis LS currently use PLD/NIN as main /assist. PLD isn't tank in (Zilart) Dynamis, either.

WAR/NIN can also work as main /assist, but that PLD player is fast and accurate at picking targets (yes, very important!). We do not use DD/THF in general--I specifically ask all DDs to use /NIN, but one new player last run didn't get the memo, yet.

(We started off with PLD/WARs back in Febuary and with me yelling at THFs to use TA+WS instead of SA+WS--then again, we were also once a /shout LS. Things changed. heh.)

(including DDs being responsible for watching their own hate or TAing their WS on someone who can take it), but if Abyssea isn't like that, then it isn't, and you should adapt tactics accordingly.

On PLD/NIN (as DD) or SAM/NIN, I WS'ed as early in the fight as I could. 1. Less issues with taking kill blows as new comer while doing minimal TP holding. 2. Hoped other DDs would WS earlier as well, to speed up kills.

WS'ing early and blink tank until someone else gets the monster's attention is the best way to deal with Abyssea monsters in exp setting, IMO. Especially with PLD/WARs as main /assist--no reason to let monsters beat them up. (I prefer PLD/NIN as main /assist over PLD/WAR, but seen that happen exactly once in Abyssea.)

*That's* why you need to know back in town that you're coming as DD -- because mixed DW builds rely on DW, so you have to choose SJ accordingly. No PLD/WAR can duplicate your DD build regardless of what gear they have access to.

As I said, I'd ask for PLD/NIN only, if I were in charge--PLD/WAR not wanted. Either DW or Sword+Shield is fine, as long as the PLD is doing reasonably well blink tanking during that period between engaging a monster to some DD using WS.

And, geared as DD, of course. (There are actually a few shields designed for DD--I favor the Sentinel Shield myself.)

* * *

Ultimately, it's about everyone being useful. Believe it or not, being a good main /assist actually isn't a common skill; I'm fine with using a Sword+Shield PLD/NIN doing 1/3 or 1/4 damage of an average DD, as long as he's doing the main /assist part right. (Would prefer better, of course, but a fast main /assist is very nice when combined with a good puller.)

Full turtle gear really isn't that useful to PLD/NIN in this situation.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

RDM tanks

Enmity generation for the following spells has been adjusted:
Sleep / Sleep II / Dispel / Blind / Blind II / Bind

Whoopsie! Unless you intend to imply that SS/Blink is better than Utsusemi all of a sudden . . .

So yeah, any RDM I see claiming they should be on a melee DD level with NIN is going to get called out for the sheer idiocy of the statement.

Nobody has said that we should. Ketaru and Mageo are saying that, given good enough gear, we are.

So, what was that about being an "angsty, defensive prick" again?

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

Get over it.

Not sure if you think being an angsty, defensive little prick helps convey your point or if you're just looking for some love but the fact remains RDM should not be out DD'ing THF or NIN via melee simply because those jobs have little to no use outside of that role. Ninja at one time was a competent tank but over the last few years S-E has managed to turn it in to a pathetic joke. Comparing RDM and NIN only highlights the ridiculous disparity between the two. RDM tanks, debuffs, and DD's (via nukes) all better than NIN while also possessing healing, enhancement buffs like Refresh and Haste, and crowd control abilities such as Sleep and Gravity. THF is even worse off when you use that criteria as well. So yeah, any RDM I see claiming they should be on a melee DD level with NIN is going to get called out for the sheer idiocy of the statement.

[Ketaru]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

I'd love to hear your logic on why this should be the case with THF and NIN considering how godly RDM is in all areas of FFXI compared to those two jobs.

A RDM that is geared well should be able to outdamage an averagely geared THF or NIN. Learn to finish reading:

If a DD is under performing against me, then they are doing something very very wrong. (and no I do not consider those 4 jobs I listed to be DD I consider them utility/hybrid jobs, as they have functions above and beyond simply dealing damage.)

DD being jobs like SAM, DRK, or WAR. NIN and THF haven't been considered DDs for some time now. Get over it.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Abyssea Experiences

A RDM should not be able to walk in and out damage anything other than its equals, which are THF, NIN, DNC, BLU. Those are the only melee jobs a RDM should be able to out perform melee wise, anything else will just chew us up with WS usage.

I'd love to hear your logic on why this should be the case with THF and NIN considering how godly RDM is in all areas of FFXI compared to those two jobs.