Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

[Elwynn]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

As for the others... They should be a FORCED spawn. Who really has the time to compete with others for the chance of a single item dropping for them, when they don't even have a 100% chance for them to even claim the monster. Hell, I've spent three hours camping a NM only to have a BST, or DRG or some other damn job come up and claim it before I even have a chance to open my macros, or get the ability to claim it up on the screen. I've even spent up to 16 hours camping the damn NM that drops items for the Brown belt only to have some ass Charm it or some shit.

Meanwhile, I got a drop of a garrison pop item yesterday while farming an Ugg key for Windurst 9-2. Which I will drop when I get around to it, because nobody cares about garrison fights any more. But this is the model that should be used for Rare/Ex NMs. Rare-drop pop items and decent (if not spectacular) drop rates from the NM without having to find a THF. No need to camp the NM, and when you get the pop item, you can take your time getting a group together to fight it.

[Feba]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

I disagree that someone who has been camping (and killing) an NM longer than others should get a better drop rate, its like telling a CC that they should leave and let you claim because you have been there for X amount of hours, and the CC just showed up.

Not at all. The other player should have every right to claim the monster and have a chance at a drop, and have the opportunity to earn a similar benefit towards getting a drop. It's not a matter of "disadvantaging people who have just started camping something", it's a matter of "keeping people from going 0/20 on an item with a %20 drop rate". If the other person starts to camp against you, and they're just as or more skilled in terms of getting claims and killing it, their drop rate should go up exactly as yours has-- it's not to give the advantage to people who have been there longer, so that putting in more work means you get the item first. It's to keep the game from being harsher than it is intended to one person, and a cakewalk for another. Carbuncle's Ruby is another great advantage of this-- I was lucky enough to be in a full alliance that was culling leaches across multiple zones (bubu and maze) and it still took us a few hours to get just two rubies.

Another aim of the system is to get around senority like that in LS systems, and make it both more and less random. More random in the sense that you aren't waiting in line for an item, and you never know who the next person in your LS to get one will be. Less in that you're far less sure of getting a drop. This also gets around a big source of drama.

[hexx]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

Well... What about the people who have killed the same NM over 50 times! I have killed BOTH O-Kote, and the Fuma drop NM over a total of 50 times!

There is no way that I will shell out over 1 million gil for just these two items on the AH, when I can't even make that kind of money, in the amount of time these two monsters should have dropped the O-kote, and the Fuma.

I like how Feba's idea gives the players what they have worked for. The more you kill a monster, the better of a chance the item should drop. I think that all R/Ex items that drop from normal NM should increase drop chance the more you kill it, then once you get the item, it goes back to what it was before.

As for the others... They should be a FORCED spawn. Who really has the time to compete with others for the chance of a single item dropping for them, when they don't even have a 100% chance for them to even claim the monster. Hell, I've spent three hours camping a NM only to have a BST, or DRG or some other damn job come up and claim it before I even have a chance to open my macros, or get the ability to claim it up on the screen. I've even spent up to 16 hours camping the damn NM that drops items for the Brown belt only to have some ass Charm it or some shit.

[/rant]

I agree, and disagree with some of the points you and Feba make.

1- I disagree that someone who has been camping (and killing) an NM longer than others should get a better drop rate, its like telling a CC that they should leave and let you claim because you have been there for X amount of hours, and the CC just showed up. Ya win some, ya lose some, deal with it (BTW im 0/135 on both okote and s.kyahan NMs)

2- As far as certain NM's being force spawns, that I'm all for. I dont have the time to join an HNM LS for the chance at a N.Head or M.Body (altho Einherjar kinda fixes this), I have a full time job and family to deal with, so makin myself available at all hours of the day just isnt viable for me.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

And in before "Zerg isn't the way this game was meant to be played." It's a viable mechanic for playing the game and how the hell do you expect to kill KV or Dynamis Lord without it? (Are the major examples, something with perhaps a horridly high regen and damaging TP attacks, but the same stills stands for others such as Bv2, Dyna-Valk boss, etc.) Obviously it wasn't the way the Devs wanted us to take out AV, (assholes, lol, let us have our fun) but they would have fixed it a long time ago if it wasn't meant to be used. You think we zerg only with Kraken clubs? No one in the linkshell even has one. Ridills and Mkris do the job.

After trying to read it, my brain rendered this paragraph as illegible to save itself. =/

[Aksannyi]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

Ridill sucks.

Zerg fights say it doesn't.

And in before "Zerg isn't the way this game was meant to be played." It's a viable mechanic for playing the game and how the hell do you expect to kill KV or Dynamis Lord without it? (Are the major examples, something with perhaps a horridly high regen and damaging TP attacks, but the same stills stands for others such as Bv2, Dyna-Valk boss, etc.) Obviously it wasn't the way the Devs wanted us to take out AV, (assholes, lol, let us have our fun) but they would have fixed it a long time ago if it wasn't meant to be used. You think we zerg only with Kraken clubs? No one in the linkshell even has one. Ridills and Mkris do the job.

I don't think Ridill sucks. It's got its uses, situationally like just about everything else in the game.

[Malacite]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

Imagine everyone having a Ridill.

Ridill sucks.

Also, saw this at BG and LOVED IT ^^




Pretty good artwork too over at DA.


EDIT:

Good for you. So you think that someone that has camped that NM longer than you, killed it more times than you, and wants the item just as bad as you doesn't deserve to get it because they have bad luck?

Sweet Jesus 1000 times this ^

So sick of the Dev Team refusing to fix Zilart End Game because too many people would be butt hurt over all the "work" they did to get their stuff by luck. Let's not kid ourselves here, Luck is the single greatest factor in everything in this game and it's high time SE changed that.

I want the challenge to be the fight, not praying for the drop or trying to out claim 40+ people. Something that can actually be measured by skill and/or determination and not just blind luck. And you honestly believe that things like Relic Weapons and Salvage gear are truly powerful well then... idk man.

Yes, they're damn good pieces of gear but more people having them would be far from game breaking. Need I remind you yet again of the 1 truly broken equipment in the game...

[Takelli]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

As imperfect as point systems in an LS may be, we don't want the system dropping gear on us out of pity, either. Really, where the satisfaction in a sure thing? Part of the excitement in getting this gear is that its a gamble. The satisfaction should come from knowing you worked for it and that its still rare.

Well... What about the people who have killed the same NM over 50 times! I have killed BOTH O-Kote, and the Fuma drop NM over a total of 50 times!

There is no way that I will shell out over 1 million gil for just these two items on the AH, when I can't even make that kind of money, in the amount of time these two monsters should have dropped the O-kote, and the Fuma.

I like how Feba's idea gives the players what they have worked for. The more you kill a monster, the better of a chance the item should drop. I think that all R/Ex items that drop from normal NM should increase drop chance the more you kill it, then once you get the item, it goes back to what it was before.

As for the others... They should be a FORCED spawn. Who really has the time to compete with others for the chance of a single item dropping for them, when they don't even have a 100% chance for them to even claim the monster. Hell, I've spent three hours camping a NM only to have a BST, or DRG or some other damn job come up and claim it before I even have a chance to open my macros, or get the ability to claim it up on the screen. I've even spent up to 16 hours camping the damn NM that drops items for the Brown belt only to have some ass Charm it or some shit.

[/rant]

[Feba]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

So after about seven years of THF having this ability in the game and endgame strategies negating the need for the job in the majority of the fight, your solution is to rob the job of part of what makes it unique?

Again, if it's only around so that other people are slightly more likely to profit, yes, it needs to be fixed. I'm not saying that THFs should fuck off and die, I'm saying they should be improved so that they have more to do than join in and improve drop rates.

If there's a way to give a job trait to everyone in your party then it belongs to Corsair. Again, you completely ignore job design and identity and go straight to finding easier ways to gratify yourself.

What the fuck are you talking about? It's not 'giving your job trait to everyone in your party' any more than Treasure Hunter is as it is for increasing drops other people are farming. Although Corsair is an interesting idea-- if the drop system is redesigned in the way I'm suggesting, TH could apply just for the THF (assuming again that THF is improved to make it a valid job for more than affecting drop rate) and COR would use some ability to make it apply to everyone. That seems unnecessarily complex, though.

Your sysetm is full of downsides. If everyone can earn a treasure hunter effect, TH can be shared and stacked on it just for a THF being there and everyone has thier own little treasure pool, guess what happens?

oh, I know... it's.... exactly what fucking happens now! BBQ, are you playing dumb? Do you really not understand how TH right now is a benefit for the entire party? It's purely a matter of individualizing treasure pools, and making those individualized treasure pools based upon effort instead of sheer luck.

Rare items cease to be rare. It would also turn game balance on its ear. Imagine everyone having a Ridill. Or full sets of Salvage gear. All because they played long enough to let the system favor them.

Oh please.

1- If rare items become too common, the system I suggest makes it extremely easy to simply tone back reward rates. Once again, you confuse making drops less random with making them less rare. I have no interest in making things more common or easier, simply less frustrating. For example, let's say I want a piece of equipment. I camp the NM for it, and go 0/5. A competitor claims it and gets it on the first drop. This is incredibly frustrating, given the length of repop timers on most FFXI NMs. If I knew that every time I killed the NM, my chances of getting the drop improved, it would be much better.
2- Your same argument applies to relic weapons. "baaaaaaaaw, the Excalibur isn't rare! All you have to do is collect a bunch of currency and do a couple quests!". I don't think anyone thinks that those weapons are any more common because they're not insanely rare dynamis drops instead of requiring huge amounts of time investment. Furthermore, the systems you advocate (LS points, other in-game points systems) suffer exactly the same flaw of 'if you play long enough, the system is more likely to give you what you want'-- if that can really be considered a flaw.

As imperfect as point systems in an LS may be, we don't want the system dropping gear on us out of pity, either. Really, where the satisfaction in a sure thing?

BBQ, your arguments are getting worse and worse. How about your paycheck? "Man, I don't want my boss giving me money just because he feels sorry for all the time I spent working. If I get paid every month, how am I supposed to be happy with that?". Or how about levels; did you feel unsatisfied when you hit 75 because it was a 'sure thing' once you got your TNL to 0? Again, I am not saying things should be easier or more common, I am saying they should be less random. I get that you like roguelikes, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's horrible design for an MMO like this. I am not saying that the game should say "oh, well, you suck really bad, but here's your prize anyway. A for Effort, man!". I'm saying it should say "you've been putting in a lot of work for this for a long time, you've felled King Asshole for the thirtieth time now, I think it's fair to give you your reward". Imagine if instead of earning EXP, you leveled up on random monster kills. Some people would hit 75 within days; other people would be stuck for months. That's exactly how item drops are now, and that's exactly how unfair and broken they are. From my understanding, this is basically what Crisis Core did-- but with a system in the background that made sure you didn't level up too quickly or too slowly. That's basically exactly what I'm proposing, but for item drops.

I camped that NM, it was my fight and I had little to no chance of getting that drop. But I did.

Good for you. So you think that someone that has camped that NM longer than you, killed it more times than you, and wants the item just as bad as you doesn't deserve to get it because they have bad luck?

FFXIClopedia says there's a %10 chance of that bow dropping. From the way you write, I assume you got it on your first kill. There's nothing wrong with that. But let's say you've been camping it for awhile. You've killed it 15 times with no drop. Why should someone who just happens to pass through and get claim have an equal chance at getting the drop as you have? You have clearly been trying harder to get the item, you have clearly put in more work, you have been there longer and made more kills. Even if he deserves a good shot as well, you should not have no better idea if it's going to drop the 16th time than the first.

Again, I am not saying it should be made easier-- you should not have an easier time claiming, it should not give you an easier fight, it shouldn't even begin to spawn sooner. But once you earn your kill, you should have a better chance of gaining the item.

Another worst case scenario, let's say you claim the NM for the 16th time and work it down to near death. Another RNG who was camping it is there. You disconnect, and the second the mob turns white, he EESs it for the kill. In the current random system, he has a chance of getting the item, absolutely no work put in. You lose everything. In the system I'm proposing, he would have a much smaller chance of getting the item (assuming he hasn't been camping it previously.), and there's a chance that you would log back in to find the bow in your inventory. If you didn't get the drop, you would find at least that the next time you killed it, your chances were higher still.




BBQ, I get that you like to argue, but please think about your criticisms before you post-- they range from deeply misunderstanding what I'm saying to being as thin as paper.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

1- Basically, yes. If the only useful thing a job can do is stand around and improve drop rates, the job needs to be fixed.

So after about seven years of THF having this ability in the game and endgame strategies negating the need for the job in the majority of the fight, your solution is to rob the job of part of what makes it unique?

THF, as a job, functions as its meant to. The problem with THF is the same as DNC, BST, BLU and PUP at endgame - SE just looks at the job change system as the way out rather than finding a way for every job to be able to participate and shine in a fight.

Some jobs need tweaks to make this practical, yes, but any form of change that takes away from a job's uniqueness is shitty design.

You just want your pot of gold without consequence or thought towards job uniqueness. If you want treasure and wealth to happen, THF and BST are the way to go.

2- Even then, I didn't say those were the only possible factors. Having TH in your group could increase everyone's chances of getting an item by some amount, instead of increasing the simple rate of an item appearing in the treasure pool. Not a radical change at all.

If there's a way to give a job trait to everyone in your party then it belongs to Corsair. Again, you completely ignore job design and identity and go straight to finding easier ways to gratify yourself.

The old systems do nothing to protect players and ensure they eventually get their items. The system I'm proposing has no downsides except for those that do manipulate point systems to ensure that they get what they want before anyone else. Keep in mind that the system I'm proposing would cause the item to go directly into your inventory, not into a treasure pool. LS leaders would have no recourse against your 'luck', and no rational reason to kick you because you got an item before they did. I think you're confusing my idea (individualized rewards based on previous effort) with simply building an LS point system into the game (which wouldn't be much more useful than building in a notepad application)

Your sysetm is full of downsides. If everyone can earn a treasure hunter effect, TH can be shared and stacked on it just for a THF being there and everyone has thier own little treasure pool, guess what happens?

Rare items cease to be rare. It would also turn game balance on its ear. Imagine everyone having a Ridill. Or full sets of Salvage gear. All because they played long enough to let the system favor them.

As imperfect as point systems in an LS may be, we don't want the system dropping gear on us out of pity, either. Really, where the satisfaction in a sure thing? Part of the excitement in getting this gear is that its a gamble. The satisfaction should come from knowing you worked for it and that its still rare.

I don't want people running around with Vali's Bows just because they can't get groups together to do the BCNM for Eurytos' bow instead. I camped that NM, it was my fight and I had little to no chance of getting that drop. But I did.

Its not like other RNGs don't have something comprable besides those two bows - Selene's Bow has been adequate for years and that's what I had before Vali's Bow. E/V-Bow just happens to be better all around, there's no shame in having the Selene Bow to hold you over.

[Malacite]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

Well, SE already added other ways to engage the NMs I'm after (King Arthro, Simurgh and Eastern Shadow) but they're not exactly practical (Nyzul + Sandworm...) and seriously the 24+ hour waits are silly. An ENM like system sounds pretty good though, if the drop rate is reasonable since it'd be a 5-day wait (While I"m on the subject for the love of christ increase the drop rate on Hagun already that thing is so over priced it's not funny.)

At the very least they could can the weekly spawning of the 3 Kings... I mean come on, a set of mobs that only spawn once a week? I'd like to know where SE got the notion that there are people who actually enjoy camping them. They can leave them as 24 hour spawns since they drop some fairly big ticket items but perhaps adjust the drop rates a bit and give every spawn a chance to be the HQ, with each passing day since the last spawn raising the chance.

I think it would make it more interesting that way since it could create either more or less frequent HQ spawns. Some of their drops are in KS99 runs I know but good luck finding people to do those without joining an HNM shell (I've been trying for weeks now > _ < god I want my BB and/or Speed Belt)


SE's main reason for making Nyzul use the same entry system as Assaults is for the sake of Mythic Weapons though IMO that's a real BS excuse when you consider how few people will actually go far enough to get one. What's wrong with being able to do Salvage and Nyzul at the same time? I happen to enjoy both events and both have awesome rewards but I really hate having to pick. SE doesn't do this with anything else (except ENMs and those are 5 day waits) so what gives?


And you could easily shorten Dynamis as I suggested. SE would have to dramatically cut the number of mobs in the zone and possibly adjust their strength (though Dyna mobs honestly aren't that tough to begin with) but they could do it. The CoP zones already have a pretty good system in place with the initial 1 hour restriction and then another hour when you frag the boss, you could do the same with cities. Either way Dynamis just drags on far too long (as does sky... please please please adjust dio drop rates...)

Maybe just make it the same as CoPs then? 1 hour to begin with, then another hour when the boss goes down. No more stupid TE mobs. I can tolerate CoP runs because they're an hour and a half shorter but even then it gets to me some days. I love Nyzul, Einherjar and Assault because they are short and brutally hard (Einherjar) but also different from the other content the game offers.

[Akashimo]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

1- Basically, yes. If the only useful thing a job can do is stand around and improve drop rates, the job needs to be fixed.

Only sucky thfs stand around. Real ones partake in the said kill. And god if i see a thf wear relic legs in any thing that doesn't have gil to drop again, I'll kill a puppy. I swear, they get the knife and armlets and think its all easy button.

To the idea of no pool, will dynamis, nyzul, salvage, limbus and anything that's trigger pop keep their normal treasure pools? Either i skimmed over it or it wasn't mentioned, just seems like it'll ruin a few things that actually need the pool to function.

[Feba]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

So, basically, you want to gimp what many people view as the only thing THF has to offer in an endgame event?

1- Basically, yes. If the only useful thing a job can do is stand around and improve drop rates, the job needs to be fixed.
2- Even then, I didn't say those were the only possible factors. Having TH in your group could increase everyone's chances of getting an item by some amount, instead of increasing the simple rate of an item appearing in the treasure pool. Not a radical change at all.

Additionally, there is a system that rewards you each time you go back to do an event - LS point system, Allied Notes, Assault points. All these things assure you will eventually get what you want.

Notes and points, sure. LS point system? Are you high? Aren't you the one that's usually complaining about how crooked most LS leaders are, and how they manipulate things to prevent other people from getting points where they want them? Let alone the ability to get kicked from LS through no fault of your own, shadow lotting, and other such petty drama that makes all of the effort pointless for many good people and players. The old systems do nothing to protect players and ensure they eventually get their items. The system I'm proposing has no downsides except for those that do manipulate point systems to ensure that they get what they want before anyone else. Keep in mind that the system I'm proposing would cause the item to go directly into your inventory, not into a treasure pool. LS leaders would have no recourse against your 'luck', and no rational reason to kick you because you got an item before they did. I think you're confusing my idea (individualized rewards based on previous effort) with simply building an LS point system into the game (which wouldn't be much more useful than building in a notepad application)

You bring up a good point about being kicked or getting disconnected-- which this system could also handle very well. When the monster is killed, everyone that fought it gets points (this would reset along with HP after CFHs and wipes and so on), regardless of whether they're in the party/alliance, in the same area, or even online. This keeps people from kicking out one person to let another person in for items/points. Such a system could dissuade people from abusing it to get everyone in their LS items easily by reducing the points earned in a similar manner to EXP. If a mob has 300 points for killing it, a lone person would get 300, a party of 6 could get 75 each (bonuses for groups of 3-6 people), an alliance would get 15 points each (small detractions for using an alliance), two alliances would get 5 points each (larger detractions for groups above 18 members). This would also be a great way to prevent mobs like AV, PW, and Kirin back in the days where people needed multiple alliances from biasing towards the players in the killing party. Everyone that helped kill a mob would get an even share of the credit (based on getting hate on the mob and being in a party with claim; not based on dealing damage. hate to be fair to mages, being in a party with claim to prevent people from casting on people with hate in order to get free points), even if the leaders kicked them, even if they were D2'd, even if they disconnected. This would have the side benefit of dissuading LS from trying to steal HNMs or force a wipe; an LS wiping would either get points for however far they got the mob down, or the other LS would have to wait and allow the monster to get back to %100.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

If it isn't a corrupt one, I get the one filled with morally depraved personalities I can't mesh with. Or both. Though to be fair, last time I had a bad experience was when someone who was a friend turned batshit insane the moment she joined the LS. I invariably get associated with this person, so the only option to preserve my reputation is to disassociate with people that behave that way.

I remember back on Titan there was this one dude called Asdrabael (he posts who threw a tremendous temper tantrum when a Dynamis run finally timed out and we lost a small smattering of singles. Totally lost it. Yeah, it was bad some people AFKed toward the end and didn't pass, but I've seen runs where a 100 piece dropped right as we timed out. Losing five singles? Not so painful.

He'd come and babysit his wife's account (well, he claimed to have one, I didn't see how such a personality could obtain a mate) just to tell us how awesome his times in Karasu were (yeah, that Titan shell that got destroyed by the bannings under Merona). Of course, this was why I questioned that he had a wife, because if he did, wouldn't it make a bit more sense to be in Karasu with him? Really, an LS that keeps couples apart doesn't sound that cool.

I'm still gonna keep away from endgame for a bit longer til I get the new particulars of employment squared away. Odin seems to have a more cordial endgame environment, just a overcrowded one.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

I guess I'm really lucky I've never been in a corrupt linkshell where leaders kick people who have more points than them or something. I don't doubt there are some shady fuckers out there, but if people can be kept honest, the system we work with is amazing for determining drops, and easily the fairest I've seen.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Now Square-Enix wants customers to be happy. how will FFXI make us happy now?

I lol'd.

Anyway, I still say the game should have a system that rewards people somewhat randomly, but based on their past and total efforts. People that devote themselves to an item have a better chance of getting it every time they go back, while not giving away the item to everyone that passes by or making it easy to determine when you'll get an item (I'll have X points at Y date, which is enough to buy Z item).

So, basically, you want to gimp what many people view as the only thing THF has to offer in an endgame event? Additionally, there is a system that rewards you each time you go back to do an event - LS point system, Allied Notes, Assault points. All these things assure you will eventually get what you want.

Problem with LS point system is a potential for human error/corruption. Even if there was in internal DKP system to eliminate the mishandling of the math, there's still the leaders that kick people from LSes. So it couldn't be done within an LS with 100% success any way you imagine it. And if it was external to the LS and specific to each member - people are still going to want to have a say if your "luck" makes something drop, particularly given that they had to help you kill it to make it happen.

While I like the way rewards are handled in Assault and Campaign, i don't think its very "adventurous" to have all rewards doled out by a similar system, which is really the only perfect way to do it... unless you're kicked from a fight or get disconnected.