New AN Equipment

[LadyKiKi]

Re: New AN Equipment

It's "ridiculous" that I have to jump from city alligance to city alligance to get these items. Losing medals for not participating in campaign or for switching cities I can understand, but forcing players to switch cities to get these items is a bad concept. Especially when they know there's a system similar to this with a much better way of obtaining items from other nations.

And for the record, I think permanently losing your OP warps, the *only* downside to switching nations in conquest, is a bad idea too.

Well, if that's the case, we'd all be sheep then. Surely we all have to be somewhat original?

On that note, I think it's ridiculous I have to start my character again if I wanted to be say, a tarutaru. (not counting the use of 3rd party tools to make me look different to myself)

[Ziero]

Re: New AN Equipment

Well, if that's the case, we'd all be sheep then. Surely we all have to be somewhat original?

On that note, I think it's ridiculous I have to start my character again if I wanted to be say, a tarutaru. (not counting the use of 3rd party tools to make me look different to myself)

...what?

Making it so you have to lose medals to obtain gear-swap-at-best items is a poor system. People can *still* obtain these items if they really want, it's just that their's an unneeded hassle in doing so. How does making it so that the only way to get some items is by giving up Medals prevent people from being Sheep? It's not that people can't get these items, it's just they need to go through ridiculous steps to do so.

And seeing as your race, face and name are the ONLY things in the ENTIRE GAME that can not be changed, I fail to see how that's relevant. Gear should be availible to everyone, which this gear is. It's just you have to jump through unneeded hoops to get it. Especially when there's a similar-but-better system in place already.

[LadyKiKi]

Re: New AN Equipment

Ok, face/name/race is a bit far.

How about merits? They're none refundable. The hassle is collecting the merits again if you say, want to level a tank job but have dumped max merits into your -emnity merits.

My point is that they're (SE) doing this to ensure people choose different things and make sure everyone cannot take the benefit of one thing and then having to do nearly nothing to get the benefit of something else.

EDIT: I forgot to add 2 things.

SE's idea of a time sink. If you can switch at the flick of a button and get all the stuff, you'd stop playing quicker maybe? Or less motivation to do campaign (assuming you have all the notes to buy absolutely everything)

And SE's idea (or life's idea maybe?) that, with your decisions come possible consequences. Or to create the feeling that something somewhere out there there is always something better.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: New AN Equipment

People tend to take the "you can be anything in EXP in FFXI, therefore, everything should be as flexable" thing too far, when it comes to endgame and high level content, SE wants you to specialize.

All the "best stuff" is Rare/EX.
Merits are for specialization of your character.
Race does matter in some cases at endgame.
CoP, ToA, Apocalypse Nigh Rewards - you can only have one, not all.

SE could have made ToA, Divine Might and Apocalypse Nigh rewards so you could switch rings every other day, but they put a long delay on your ability to change your mind, like RL 27 days, wasn't it?

SE wants you to choose your path carefully, contrary to naive statements about the game's flexibility over other MMOs. That's why there are restrictions. Just because you don't have a life doesn't mean its poor design.

[Ziero]

Re: New AN Equipment

Ok, face/name/race is a bit far.

How about merits? They're none refundable. The hassle is collecting the merits again if you say, want to level a tank job but have dumped max merits into your -emnity merits.

My point is that they're (SE) doing this to ensure people choose different things and make sure everyone cannot take the benefit of one thing and then having to do nearly nothing to get the benefit of something else.

But they can still be obtained by everyone. It's not a restriction on the items, it's an unneeded step to obtain them. You and OMG said it yourselves, it's 'easy' to obtain those medals back so saying that's going to 'ensure people choose different things' is actuallt a moot point. On top of that, the gear in each nation helps different *jobs* so it's not like the gear is competeing with other gear to create options for people to be different. Tanks will want Sandy's gear, Melee will want Bastok's gear, mages will want Windy's gear etc. And on top of that, no one is suggesting that people be able to obtain items from different nations without penalty anyway. It was suggested these items cost other nation's residents double the AN, which would actually be *more* restrictive but in the end still easier to get because the hoops would not be there. Instead of some round-about, overly unneeded way to obtain these items, it would just be a simple cost increase. Heck it would even end up being nothing more then an *option* because people could then decide whether they want to go through the hassle of changing nations and losing rank or just paying more.

Either that or make them just Rare so only players from one nation can buy them with AN, but players from other nations still have a way to get them.

And Merits are easy to obtain, there is no need to switch anything to get them. You kill stuff, get merits, spend them like cash to obtain what you want, then if you don't want that and would prefer something else you through away what you bought and get more. There is no hoops or time restrictions or need to join other factions involved to get more merits.

People shouldn't pick which nation they want to ally with based on Gear, they should pick based on which nation they like. And this system does not allow that.

[LadyKiKi]

Re: New AN Equipment

People shouldn't pick which nation they want to ally with based on Gear, they should pick based on which nation they like. And this system does not allow that.

Of course, but ... human nature. I'm sure we all hate our jobs (up to a point). We just do it for the money/rewards.

[Ziero]

Re: New AN Equipment

People tend to take the "you can be anything in EXP in FFXI, therefore, everything should be as flexable" thing too far, when it comes to endgame and high level content, SE wants you to specialize.

All the "best stuff" is Rare/EX.
Merits are for specialization of your character.
Race does matter in some cases at endgame.
CoP, ToA, Apocalypse Nigh Rewards - you can only have one, not all.

SE could have made ToA, Divine Might and Apocalypse Nigh rewards so you could switch rings every other day, but they put a long delay on your ability to change your mind, like RL 27 days, wasn't it?

SE wants you to choose your path carefully, contrary to naive statements about the game's flexibility over other MMOs. That's why there are restrictions. Just because you don't have a life doesn't mean its poor design.

....what?

You're comparing the CoP, ToA and Apoc Nigh rewards, symbols of accomplishment that show that you conquered some of *the* hardest missions in the game with standard issue, *mid ranked* armor that's supposed to symbolize you becoming part of your nations military?

The restrictions on those are there so people don't toss out and pick the best ring for the situation every time they change jobs because those rings show you've accomplished something. They're symbols of achievement as much as they are stat boosting gear and for a long time you *couldn't* change them, at all.

The very fact that SE changed it so those rings *can* be dropped and switched disproves your point. SE wants players to be flexible in this game because it allows for more replayability. They give us the option and ability to change almost *everything* we choose in this game. Including the rewards we pick for defeating the greatest challenges they throw at us. Outside of character creation, there are no permanent choices, we are truely able to be anything and everything in this game.

And merits are supposed to be a unique, important change to the very nature of your character, that's why they're so 'hard' to change. They're supposed to allow you to excel at a given job to make us just a bit different from each other and reward the people who go the extra mile as opposed to switching every three second. But even then, all it takes to completely alter your Merit set up is deleting your current choices and getting more Merits. It's not difficult at all to switch and move merits, it just takes time for you to EXP some and get more points.

AN gear is sorta high lvl, slightly effective, easily obtainable gear. And on top of that, it's not even the best at anything. It's strength is the fact you don't need large amounts of time or allys to get it. You can do all the work solo and still reap the rewards. It's availibility is part of it's attractivness because it *is* so easy to get. All you have to do to get this gear is Campaign enough...and choose the right nation.

And it's the second part that is the problem.

Of course, but ... human nature. I'm sure we all hate our jobs (up to a point). We just do it for the money/rewards.

...where do you people come up with this stuff

With the system the way it is now, people are forced to pick and choose their nations of alligience based on which gear would best suit them. That's not how it should work. People should choose their nations based on their preference of the nations and not the rewards they offer.

Right now the only thing keeping people from obtaining items from other nations is a few unneeded annoyances which was already claimed as being 'not that bad'. But these annoyances are unnecessarily excessive for the rewards they offer, and totally overshadowed by the fact a similar system is already in place that works FAR better in every way.

[Malacite]

Re: New AN Equipment

>_ > eh, I'm a firm believer that SE could scale back merits a bit and give us a little more breathing room in regards to earning and spending them.

Yeah, burn parties are efficient, but they're also dreadfully demoralizing IMO. It really is annoying that it takes so much time just to play around with them to see what you like best. Merits shouldn't just be handed to people (duh) but I really don't see the need to grind endlessly just for a few tweaks to your character or job.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: New AN Equipment

....what?

You're comparing the CoP, ToA and Apoc Nigh rewards, symbols of accomplishment that show that you conquered some of *the* hardest missions in the game with standard issue, *mid ranked* armor that's supposed to symbolize you becoming part of your nations military?

I'm pointing out the blatantly obviously checks and balaces of the game at high level.

You, like Icemage, look at your job, look what your job gets at endame and then look at this gear as "subpar." What you don't consider is that this gear is great for jobs that aren't yours and also good situational gear. Look at the gear, look at the facts and get over yourself while you're looking at them.

40k Allied notes takes quite some time and investment, it is an accomplishment and the gear has value to the jobs that know how to put it to use.

The restrictions on those are there so people don't toss out and pick the best ring for the situation every time they change jobs because those rings show you've accomplished something. They're symbols of achievement as much as they are stat boosting gear and for a long time you *couldn't* change them, at all.

Uh, anyone can finish RoZ or ToA so long as they have a few brain cells left. CoP Rings show an accomplishment because they are still challenging to complete and much more challenging to organize.

The very fact that SE changed it so those rings *can* be dropped and switched disproves your point.

Then how come most people still don't go back and change it? Aside from redoing DM when the change was initially made, I never hear talk of people changing thier minds on thier CoP Rings. The time restriction and the fact that you have to go through Ark Angels, Promathia or Alexander disproves your point. You can't just trade the ring to an objective marker and get a new one, there's still criteria.

SE wants players to be flexible in this game because it allows for more replayability. They give us the option and ability to change almost *everything* we choose in this game. Including the rewards we pick for defeating the greatest challenges they throw at us. Outside of character creation, there are no permanent choices, we are truely able to be anything and everything in this game.

Show me Taru PLDs tanking Grands and HNMs regularly, then tell me anyone can be everything in this game. You have to give a ton more dedication to gear and prioritize PLD a lot to pull off endgame taru PLD than they average player would. Mage, melee and support classes can just shift around, not losing much of anything by race, but tanking? Different ballgame there.

And merits are supposed to be a unique, important change to the very nature of your character, that's why they're so 'hard' to change. They're supposed to allow you to excel at a given job to make us just a bit different from each other and reward the people who go the extra mile as opposed to switching every three second. But even then, all it takes to completely alter your Merit set up is deleting your current choices and getting more Merits. It's not difficult at all to switch and move merits, it just takes time for you to EXP some and get more points.

Being part of a nation is supposed to help make your experience unique, its an important choice that affects the very nature of your character, that's why there are penalties for changing and rewards for picking a compatible nation. They're suppose to help you excel at particular jobs that are in-character with that nation. But even then, all it takes is a trip to another nation, a small sum of gil and the loss of your outposts to change that. Its not difficult to change nations, it just takes time to re-rank and get

AN gear is sorta high lvl, slightly effective, easily obtainable gear. And on top of that, it's not even the best at anything. It's strength is the fact you don't need large amounts of time or allys to get it. You can do all the work solo and still reap the rewards. It's availibility is part of it's attractivness because it *is* so easy to get. All you have to do to get this gear is Campaign enough...and choose the right nation.

If you concede that this gear is easy to obtain, then you must concede that Allied Notes and Medal ranks are easy to get.

Your opinion of the gear is irrelevant.

[LadyKiKi]

Re: New AN Equipment

But after all this arguing, are you (Ziero) really surprised that SE has made it this way (after everything else)? I completely understand what you're trying to say here, but from the start it's always been like this (pick 1, and if you want to change, grind!~)

As for my quote:

Of course, but ... human nature. I'm sure we all hate our jobs (up to a point). We just do it for the money/rewards.

What I am saying is people will NOT (most of the time) work because they like the job (I know there's some people out there who will), but rather what is in it for them (this is in the context of some more specialised jobs, not jobs which require you to sit at a checkout all day, etc). Therefore, due to this very nature, we will generally view all things that way in game as well.

I.e. plumbers. In UK they are notorious for ripping people off. Why? No one wants to do the job. And the ones who do probably don't like it, they do it because no one else does, because they are then able to charge more for their services (hence, ripping people off). That's the "reward". I rather not spend 5 hours of my day down some shithole myself, but people will normally look at the reward/benefits first before signing a contract.

Due to the fact that the rewards are easily viewable now thanks to guides/wikis/information/forums, we will quite most likely look at that first before we commit to a nation. Likewise, in a job contract, after you read an abstract of your role of the job, you'd probably skim down to the rewards/benefits section first to see if it is worth your time before you read the in-depth specifications of your job (and likely reject the job/not read further should the rewards seem crap).

But, it just so happens that all 3 nations offer decent gear.

[Ziero]

Re: New AN Equipment

I'm pointing out the blatantly obviously checks and balaces of the game at high level.

You, like Icemage, look at your job, look what your job gets at endame and then look at this gear as "subpar." What you don't consider is that this gear is great for jobs that aren't yours and also good situational gear. Look at the gear, look at the facts and get over yourself while you're looking at them.

What the hell are you talking about? For *most* jobs there is *better gear* then these things, but these are still good because they're *easier to get*. These are lower options for those who can't get *the* best gear and yet still want useful gear. It's not meant to be the best, but it's still good for certain situations. That's not up for debate.

But the point is that the 'restrictions' for the jobs that *can* make use of these things are unneededly annoying. And the fact that some jobs can make great use of some of these items makes that situation worse because if they chose the 'wrong' nation to join, they get unneededly punished for it. And again, if people level multiple jobs and need items from different nations, they too have a harder time obtaining these things.

40k Allied notes takes quite some time and investment, it is an accomplishment and the gear has value to the jobs that know how to put it to use.

Uh, anyone can finish RoZ or ToA so long as they have a few brain cells left. CoP Rings show an accomplishment because they are still challenging to complete and much more challenging to organize.

Getting 40k AN and finishing DM, RoZ, ToA and Apoc Nigh are no where *near* the same level of accomplishment. AN are practically *thrown* at you over the course of *gaining EXP*. 40k AN is not hard to get by any means.

But finishing those missions and winning those fights *do* pose a challenge to many. Despite people beating them, they are still hard fights. And its far more of a challenge to complete those mission chains then it is to get 40k AN and the second(aka it's not even the best stuff) rank of medals.

This gear and the mission rings are NOT comparible.

Then how come most people still don't go back and change it? Aside from redoing DM when the change was initially made, I never hear talk of people changing thier minds on thier CoP Rings. The time restriction and the fact that you have to go through Ark Angels, Promathia or Alexander disproves your point. You can't just trade the ring to an objective marker and get a new one, there's still criteria.

Because it's not easy to do. But it can still be done. Because those rings are so much more of a symbol of accomplishment, the restrictions to change them are harder. Because SE wants us to be able to change our minds, but not constantly change the rings at a whim.

But the point remains, it can still be done.

Show me Taru PLDs tanking Grands and HNMs regularly, then tell me anyone can be everything in this game. You have to give a ton more dedication to gear and prioritize PLD a lot to pull off endgame taru PLD than they average player would. Mage, melee and support classes can just shift around, not losing much of anything by race, but tanking? Different ballgame there.

Congratulations, you can nitpick one of the most specific circumstances in this game to attempt to prove that the annoying restrictions on *common, mid tier armor* is somehow justified. And BTW, saying that everything *but* Taru Plds is pretty much interchangable works against your argument.

Being part of a nation is supposed to help make your experience unique, its an important choice that affects the very nature of your character, that's why there are penalties for changing and rewards for picking a compatible nation. They're suppose to help you excel at particular jobs that are in-character with that nation. But even then, all it takes is a trip to another nation, a small sum of gil and the loss of your outposts to change that. Its not difficult to change nations, it just takes time to re-rank and get

Yes, not arguing that. Except the part where in Conquest areas, regardless of what city you start in you can still buy other cities' items. It's at an increased cost mind you, but that's not too bad. Infact, thank you for pointing out how well that system works because I've been saying that all topic.

Oh, and the fact that the only 'penalty' for switching nations in Conquest is the permanent loss of Outposts. Which I again think is excessive because people *will* choose to keep those rare OPs over experiencing more game content. Which to me seems like bad game design because SE should want people to play as much of the game as possible. I think it should be done more like CP, where you start with nothing when you go to a new nation, but if you switch back to your previous nation you still have your CP.

If you concede that this gear is easy to obtain, then you must concede that Allied Notes and Medal ranks are easy to get.

Your opinion of the gear is irrelevant.

They are easy to get, if you happened to pick the right nation. But the fact that you have to *lose rank just to buy items* if you didn't is what I disagree with. Infact I've said repeatedly it should be more like conquest areas in that you can buy from other nations, it would just cost more. I'm saying that the *only* restriction to buy these items if you're from another nation is excessively and overly restrictive compared to a similar, better system already in place. No where else in this game do you have to lose rank to buy an item.

But after all this arguing, are you (Ziero) really surprised that SE has made it this way (after everything else)? I completely understand what you're trying to say here, but from the start it's always been like this (pick 1, and if you want to change, grind!~)

Actually, yes I am. The first tier of AN gear was tradeable. You had to be from that nation to initially obtain it, but after that you could distribute it to others. Conquest has a similar gear distribution set up, infact much of the initial Campaign Gear was similar to the mid level conquest sets. But in that situation, anyone from any nation could obtain the gear, even the R/E stuff. It just cost them more CP, something they should be earning by participating in Conquest anyway.

This situation came out of left field.