Brutal Earring

[Amele]

Re: Brutal Earring

To be fair, the guy said he was talking about "high attack situations", meaning having double minuet from a 2 BRD party. If your base attack + food + song buffs pushes you close to the "attack cap", then it's possible that 25% increase in attack from Berserk won't get you 25% increase in DoT.

(all calculations assume dual-wielding, since 2handers aren't nailed down solidly and cap much higher on cRatio now).

well, you'd need to be above a ratio of 1.88, which is about 615 attack before berserk versus greater colibri; so you'd need (assuming red curry and double minuet) 386 attack from gear and base stats.

given ~35 attack from naked strength and a skill of (if you're lucky) 292, you'd need 59 attack from gear (combining attack and str/2) ninja will have about +48 (so 11 shy) a fully decked war/nin will come closer, by a couple points, *maybe* touching it exactly with their axe. and still being far below if using a sword (or dual swords)

and who eats red curry on greater colibri?

2 handers will need 2.6~ ratio to cap 3.0 on colibri, which is something like 850 attack (pre-berserk) before they'll see berserk starting to cap out.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Brutal Earring

Huh? They're both lineal increases. EDIT: Oh, right, never mind. Forgot that there's no way to add to a % buff, so as you keep on adding more % buffs they stack by multiplication and give you higher increases.

To be fair, the guy said he was talking about "high attack situations", meaning having double minuet from a 2 BRD party. If your base attack + food + song buffs pushes you close to the "attack cap", then it's possible that 25% increase in attack from Berserk won't get you 25% increase in DoT.

[Armando]

Re: Brutal Earring

and you should smack someone upside the head for confusing +attack (which does give diminishing returns, however slight) with +attack% (berserk; which does *not* give diminishing returns, it's actually quite linear).

Huh? They're both lineal increases. EDIT: Oh, right, never mind. Forgot that there's no way to add to a % buff, so as you keep on adding more % buffs they stack by multiplication and give you higher increases.

On-topic: I believe you're right, Bbq. If you weren't using a Joyeuse I'd say to put Brutal on instead of Fenrir's by default and simply swap in Fenrir's for shooting, but because Joyeuse halves your possible trait DAs and on top of that you're already getting Fighter's roll, the Brutal would only be useful when Fenrir's isn't giving +Attack.

[Amele]

Re: Brutal Earring

ah, that makes sense

and you should smack someone upside the head for confusing +attack (which does give diminishing returns, however slight) with +attack% (berserk; which does *not* give diminishing returns, it's actually quite linear).

anyway yeah; double attack is sex, I love it on any/all melee (even lolwhm). but if you were making -no- other tradeoffs (there's not any piece comparisons like this yet I don't think) adding +5haste would be better than +5double attack.

fortunately for all of us! no such tradeoff exists (war legs and haidate but 1% and 5% are pretty obvious.)

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Brutal Earring

fortunately for brutal earring, there's no real competition in the earring slot (unless you're like.. nin/drg or something hah)

did that make sense? I'm not disagreeing that it increases your swings linearly, I'm disagreeing that that's sufficient to claim that double attack isn't a trait that suffers diminishing returns.

It made sense from the start. I was just trying to present why there are a bunch of warriors out there who swear by a stat that "only gives diminishing return".

It seems like diminishing return gets thrown around a lot as support for a certain build even when diminishing return vs increasing return shouldn't even be an issue. Ironically, an example of one such discussions that I thought of earlier was when someone was proposing the use of NIN/DRG over NIN/WAR specifically to take advantage of Wyvern Earring. This player's line of thinking was essentially that since attack gives diminishing return, +5% haste would be more beneficial than Berserk. Even with Double Attack also being considered, I could see some players saying that since both +attack and +Double Attack give diminishing return, then +haste from subbing /DRG and wearing Wyvern Earring must be more beneficial. However, this fails to compare the marginal benefit of the two options.

I'm probably just getting too tense over the fact that diminishing return was brought into the discussion. That phrase is fast becoming my new FFXI pet peeve.

Numbers don't lie. But people misinterpret them all the time.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Brutal Earring

Well the one thing I've made a point in reminding people lately is that our damage over time is naturally going to be lowered because of the time spent buffing people. Even with the addition of Luzaf's Ring (however you get it), you're still going to want to divide most of your buffs in a standard PT and Phantom Roll + Double ups will screw with any equation dedicated to determining your average DPS.

Perhaps with the reduced movement delay coming in this update, that could change, but I'd still think Rolls would delay my swings a little. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

[Amele]

Re: Brutal Earring

I think perhaps you misunderstood my first statement.

I agree that the effect of brutal is obvious, (I wasn't saying I disagreed with the wars) I disagree that increasing your double attack rate has a linear effect on anything but attack rate.

look: your numbers,
10,000 seconds, 10,000TP 0% (1TP/sec)
10,000 seconds, 11,000TP 10% (1.1TP/sec, average time to 100TP 90.9 seconds)
10,000 seconds, 12,000TP 20% (1.2TP/sec, average time to 100TP 83.3 seconds)

you don't get 20% faster with 20% double attack, you get 16.67% faster ( (100-83.3)/100 ) 10% gets you 9.1% faster. that's diminishing returns.


in respect to swings per unit time, the linear effect is there; but it won't fall out in dot because double attacks aren't recursive (if they were it'd be a very different story) - anyway, you swing 120 times in 1000 seconds, that's 20 more swings than you did without any double attack, but the war/nin with 15% DA already is only gaining 5/115 swings from a brutal, whereas the sam/thf with 0% DA already gained 5/100 swings from that same brutal.

so in the numbers that *matter* (dot gain from adjusting gear, and time to TP for weaponskills) double attack is strictly worse than haste if you have equal amounts of both already.

fortunately for brutal earring, there's no real competition in the earring slot (unless you're like.. nin/drg or something hah)

did that make sense? I'm not disagreeing that it increases your swings linearly, I'm disagreeing that that's sufficient to claim that double attack isn't a trait that suffers diminishing returns.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Brutal Earring

eh. more complicated than that.

we'll use the simplest case (totally artificial delay and tp.) 10 second delay, 10 tp per hit, 100% accuracy.

in 100 seconds, I hit 10 times. I generate 100 tp in an average of 100 seconds.

with 10% double attack, I hit 11 times, I generate 100 tp in an average of 90.9 seconds.

with 20% double attack, I hit 12 times, I generate 100 tp in an average of 83.3 seconds.

the first 10% decreased my average time to 100TP by 9.1 seconds. (.91 seconds per DA%)
the second 20% decreased my average time to 100TP by a further 7.6 seconds (.835 seconds per DA% 0-20)

that's strictly diminishing returns. (the more you add, the less effect you get per point)

Lets look at that from a different angle. How many WSs can you potentially do in 10,000 seconds?

0% DA: 10,000 sec * 1 swing/10 secs * 10 TP/1 swing * 1 WS/100 TP = 100 WSs
10% DA: 10,000 sec * (1 swing/10 secs * 1.1) * 10 TP/1 swing * 1 WS/100 TP = 110 WSs
20% DA: 10,000 sec * (1 swing/10 secs * 1.2) * 10 TP/1 swing * 1 WS/100 TP = 120 WSs

This is still a simplification, since you won't always do a WS at exactly 100 TP (e.g. a double attack may kick in taking TP from 90 to 110 in one attack round). But ignore that for a moment.

In relative terms:
first 10% DA improved WS frequency by (110 - 100)/100 = 10%
2nd 10% DA improved WS frequency by (120 - 110)/110 = 9.1%
There's the "diminishing return".

In absolute terms:
first 10% DA added 110 - 100 = 10 more WSs
2nd 10% DA added 120 - 110 = 10 more WSs

When those WARs swear that they can clearly see a difference with and without brutal earring, it's not because they don't understand diminishing return, or because they're bad at math. It's because they're looking at things from a different perspective.

And it's not like those WARs have to choose between Brutal or some form of haste/attack delay reduction. In all likelihood, they are wearing both Brutal and Suppa.

[Omni]

Re: Brutal Earring

lets make this simple.

for your cor, your first instincts are right. i dont think you'd benefit much from a brutal since you have a joytoy. your earring slots are better used with other items anyways.

for any other melee, brutal is almost a must have.

[eticket109]

Re: Brutal Earring

If you have the coins to get it then may as well grab it and try swapping it out for Fenrir's during the day. Like someone said, it's hard to quantify if the 5% boost will make enough difference that losing the 10 to attack is worth it. If it doesn't seem to work then just store it til later I suppose.

[Amele]

Re: Brutal Earring

Well, it's a perspective thing. To say that it has diminishing return means you're looking at what percentage increase you get to overall damage. In absolute terms, that last 5% of DA is adding the same thing as the first 5%.
The difference is probably noticeable if you're trying to gauge how fast you can get back to 100 TP. If the first 5% in DA reduces the number of attacks needed to get 100 TP by 1, the last 5% of DA will do the same thing. For a WAR who's trying to cram in as many Rampages while Bergressor is still up, that's probably a very big thing.

eh. more complicated than that.

we'll use the simplest case (totally artificial delay and tp.) 10 second delay, 10 tp per hit, 100% accuracy.

in 100 seconds, I hit 10 times. I generate 100 tp in an average of 100 seconds.

with 10% double attack, I hit 11 times, I generate 100 tp in an average of 90.9 seconds.

with 20% double attack, I hit 12 times, I generate 100 tp in an average of 83.3 seconds.

the first 10% decreased my average time to 100TP by 9.1 seconds. (.91 seconds per DA%)
the second 20% decreased my average time to 100TP by a further 7.6 seconds (.835 seconds per DA% 0-20)

that's strictly diminishing returns. (the more you add, the less effect you get per point)

in the case of number of attacks, the increases are linear from baseline, but the relative gain of adding additional points reduces with each increment (adding 1% double attack provides a larger relative gain if you are currently at 0% DA, versus the relative gain if you're currently at 20% DA) this is basically the same as accuracy and the opposite of how haste and dual-wield bonuses effect your attack rates and damage over time.

so no. the only thing linear is the effect on baseline stats in terms of attack rate. the dot gains (and even the attack rate, because Double attack is not recursive) from set 'X' to set 'X+5%' is non-linear and diminishing, and the TP gain rates are non-linear and diminshing even when compared to baseline.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Brutal Earring

you might not, given that you have some amount of double attack already. (and double attack suffers from diminishing returns the more of it you stack, unlike say, haste or dual wield which actually -accelerate-)

although, every warrior I know still swears they can clearly see the difference...

Well, it's a perspective thing. To say that it has diminishing return means you're looking at what percentage increase you get to overall damage. In absolute terms, that last 5% of DA is adding the same thing as the first 5%.

The difference is probably noticeable if you're trying to gauge how fast you can get back to 100 TP. If the first 5% in DA reduces the number of attacks needed to get 100 TP by 1, the last 5% of DA will do the same thing. For a WAR who's trying to cram in as many Rampages while Bergressor is still up, that's probably a very big thing.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Brutal Earring

What is your rings and earring like right now?

Already listed the earrings in the OP, the only real plausible way to even rotate in Brutal would be to slip it into my Phantom Roll macros where there's still some space to equip stuff. I already use that to sneak my Suppa back on.

Rings are a static slot I only go to change manually as needed. Behemoth Ring and Rajas Ring are currently in those slots. I'll change to AGI x2 Rings or Behe Rings x2 if the situation demands it, but I don't macro them. I've tried the STR Ring x2 on COR and its just not practical in most cases as it would be for RNG.

The problem is overall that I already have so many R/E earrings. I guess you could say I like to be prepared for any given situation so I leave the mog house with everything.

I should point out I have Swift Belt and Wahlra Turban as well. Those seem to be a hard sell for me to use as well. I'll use them when I sub /NIN for something, but that's typically as far as it goes because the hat constantly changes and I keep the waist slot static for Gun Belt on /RNG, Jungle Rope when /Mage, so Swift I usually save for /NIN.

[Amele]

Re: Brutal Earring

you might not, given that you have some amount of double attack already. (and double attack suffers from diminishing returns the more of it you stack, unlike say, haste or dual wield which actually -accelerate-)

although, every warrior I know still swears they can clearly see the difference (it's 5%) even with fully merited double attack (so 15->20%) currently, you wouldn't have 15% pre-job adjustment buff unless you rolled an XI with no warrior, or a lucky/10+ with a warrior. (although how much this song gets buffed is another question - since it's one of the songs that doesn't have a direct bard analogue)

brutal really is an excellent earring, and I think (outside of ratt+10 from fenrir's while /ra ) it's just about the best TP-earring you can get after suppa for dw jobs.

[Sevv]

Re: Brutal Earring

Well, the other thing is this: I'm pretty much a walking, talking Brutal Earring by default with the buffs I'm given. Fighter's and Samurai Roll in particular. And we don't know just yet how much those are getting boosted in the update.
Maybe it isn't a question of if it works, but if I'd even notice.

What is your rings and earring like right now?