[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Elwynn

Also, WHM/BLM gets the benefit of Conserve MP, but you can forget about Aspir with half-skill Dark Magic. Aspir should work fine for RDM/BLM, though.

WHM/SCH also gets Conserve MP (though later than with BLM sub) as well as B+ rated Dark Magic skill to along with it. Plain and simple, /SCH solves so many of WHM's woes it's not even funny. If you're too cheap/lazy to level it (and I know some people who are on my server - _ -) that's your god damned problem, not SE's. I've been using /SCH since level 20 (currently WHM 68) and being an Elvaan I can tell you it has literally made the difference between life & death many times.

[Firewind]

Originally Posted by Armando

Also on the topic of Parade Gorget, the amount of time PLDs spend at 85+% HP is certainly not the majority in an EXP party (with the possible exception of TP burns) so Parade Gorget most certainly doesn't add up to 1 MP/tick in practice (although I'm not trying to imply it doesn't contribute, either.)

I'll concede the point there. The fact that I haven't seen a white HP bar on my PLD since I left Qufim backs that up. Actually I think the majority of my HP cured in most parses has been done by myself, I rarely if ever see a RDM curing me. They mostly just spam haste on suicidal DDs. Yay for lolPickup Group. Actually I don't think I've ever been hasted on PLD since Lv48. I'd say Lv40 but I haven't partied with a WHM since about PLD37.

[Aylmer]

Wow sorry to hear about that ....as RDM I always haste the tank for fast self cures and spell cast whether PLD or NIN. And I help with small cures and emergency cures if tank is PLD to keep hp up somewhat. I know PLD self cures are to keep hate.

[Armando]

Originally Posted by Firewind

Actually I think the majority of my HP cured in most parses has been done by myself, I rarely if ever see a RDM curing me. They mostly just spam haste on suicidal DDs. Yay for lolPickup Group. Actually I don't think I've ever been hasted on PLD since Lv48. I'd say Lv40 but I haven't partied with a WHM since about PLD37.

That's pretty depressing to hear. I feel for you, man (woman? I don't know these days!)

[TheGrandMom]

Firewind, if some lazy ass rdm isn't hasting you then you need to have a permanent macro saying "Need {Haste}{please}!" and spam that damn thing till you get it. A non hasting rdm for the tank is about as useless as a non refreshing rdm.

[Mog]

Originally Posted by Firewind

I'll concede the point there. The fact that I haven't seen a white HP bar on my PLD since I left Qufim backs that up. Actually I think the majority of my HP cured in most parses has been done by myself, I rarely if ever see a RDM curing me. They mostly just spam haste on suicidal DDs. Yay for lolPickup Group. Actually I don't think I've ever been hasted on PLD since Lv48. I'd say Lv40 but I haven't partied with a WHM since about PLD37.

I didn't really need haste while leveling pld. Refresh however is always always always needed though. I hate when rdm's wait until I have no MP to start refreshing me. That's when I tell the leader it's either me or the rdm that's leaving the party. >_>;

Haste is awesome for ninja leveling though. Can't tell you how many times its saved my life in exp parties.

[Armando]

Haste isn't necessary on PLD but it's a matter of priorities.

Why in God's name are you going to boost the DD's damage output first in this day and age when anyone can rip hate off the best of tanks? Improving the tank's hate holding (it's not just Flash, the extra DPS contributes too) lets all the DDs do more damage safely.

[Aylmer]

That's why text filters are important. I always look for when refresh wears to apply it a quickly as possible and keep it constantly my PLD.

[TheGrandMom]

I think haste on a pld is of the utmost importance....far more important than for DD's. Imo, any rdm that refuses to haste a pld isn't worth the spot in a party. Hate holding is a high priority. A pld with haste is a better hate machine and can protect his party more efficiently than one without. It helps the flow of the party and mp consumption. There is no reason on god's green earth that a rdm can't haste and refresh on a regular basis, its so easy its not funny.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I know PLD self cures are to keep hate.

The differences are somewhat subtle, but PLDs cure to generate enmity. And, curing any player on the hate list generates the same amount of enmity for the same amount HP cured, if the players are at the same level (which they would be, if level synch'ed). Cure self, cure DD, cure mages--they all do the samething for a PLD. (On that note, a Cure IV for 85 HP does exactly the same thing as a Cure II for 85 HP.)

You keep (cumulative) enmity (CE) by not getting hit. Which, is not something for a PLD/WAR to try. Everyone constantly loses volatile enmity (VE), but just about every action adds non-negligible amount of VE, except missing a swing. A PLD/WAR played well is a master at VE generation--and a very leaky bucket for CE.

[Callisto]

Originally Posted by Armando

Haste isn't necessary on PLD but it's a matter of priorities.

Why in God's name are you going to boost the DD's damage output first in this day and age when anyone can rip hate off the best of tanks? Improving the tank's hate holding (it's not just Flash, the extra DPS contributes too) lets all the DDs do more damage safely.

In terms of mid-level XP I was pretty used to not getting Haste/Refresh due to bad setups or bad mages, but when you hit the 60's honestly it didn't really matter. The extra damage/more frequent casts is nice, but realistically even a good tank isn't going to be keeping hate on birds or imps when Sidewinder and Gekko start flying around. It was always like "Hey cool, I got hasted" rather than "Dammit, where's my Haste?"

If you're doing some sort of actual endgame event as PLD and you don't have a reliable Haste/Refresh it's time to light a fire under some of the mages.

[Vyuru]

I'm vexed :/

As Drg, I almost never get haste in parties. As a Blu with Refueling, I almost always get haste, but no refresh.

It's not fair!!!!!

[Armando]

In terms of mid-level XP I was pretty used to not getting Haste/Refresh due to bad setups or bad mages, but when you hit the 60's honestly it didn't really matter. The extra damage/more frequent casts is nice, but realistically even a good tank isn't going to be keeping hate on birds or imps when Sidewinder and Gekko start flying around. It was always like "Hey cool, I got hasted" rather than "Dammit, where's my Haste?"

I don't know. When I was in a party where I could eat sushi, I didn't have hate problems. Naturally I couldn't cement hate 24/7. Mobs would turn when big WS flew. But I generally had an answer to those situations almost every time, be it Cover, Flash, a Vorpal Blade, or a JA to take back hate (also, I let people use their shadows. If they're subbing NIN, they'd better use those 6 shadows.) But I'm certain I'd be at an ugly disadvantage if I didn't get Haste and the DDs did.

Naturally it's not possible to go without Defense food in every party, and Haste's benefits would be diminished in turtle mode, but I don't think the hate situation is hopeless in every party.

[Aylmer]

I don't haste DRG because the increase damage output will tranfer hate. I do refresh BLU but never haste because I dont see a need to provide BLU with haste. Back to MP Recovery......don't most magic-user jobs have two forms of MP Recovery? I know PLD, RDM, SMN, and SCH do.

[Armando]

DRG is one of the last jobs you have to worry about. They can shed hate by using High Jump and Super Jump.

PLD doesn't get a second form of MP recovery until merits unless you count Parade Gorget. I don't see where SCH's second form of MP recovery is coming from either.