[Malacite]

Last time I merited with a WHM/SCH on BRD I almost never had to give him ballad. He was taru and his MP dipped under 700 once.

[Truece]

Originally Posted by Malacite

Last time I merited with a WHM/SCH on BRD I almost never had to give him ballad. He was taru and his MP dipped under 700 once.

And it's the /SCH which makes it possible. The fact that he was taru is irrelevant.

[hexx]

Difficulty with Nyzul is just an excuse.

1. There will ALWAYS be people who need to start from floor 1, youre just not looking hard enough.
2. Ive done Nyzul with WHMs, RDMs, and SCH's, I tend to prefer WHM's or SCH's to be honest, fuck Haste LOL I'd much rather stay alive
3. Nyzul is a piece of cake, even for someone who is new to it, if you just listen, and do as you're told.

As Ketaru said, Nyzul is a no-brainer, just gotta focus, stop playing that other game or watching T.V., and follow directions, and you will be fine (of course that totally blows most players out of the water, since many of them cant even follow directions to save their lives).

[Armando]

3. Nyzul is a piece of cake, even for someone who is new to it, if you just listen, and do as you're told.

Even under the best case scenarios, Nyzul is a fickle mistress. All it takes is a bad floor or two - or even just a bad mob (like getting Roc/Simurgh in a Defeat All Enemies floor, or a Chariot boss) - to lose the run.

Nyzul is straightforward but I wouldn't call it a piece of cake.

[hexx]

Originally Posted by Armando

Even under the best case scenarios, Nyzul is a fickle mistress. All it takes is a bad floor or two - or even just a bad mob (like getting Roc/Simurgh in a Defeat All Enemies floor, or a Chariot boss) - to lose the run.

Nyzul is straightforward but I wouldn't call it a piece of cake.

Its a piece of cake alright, yes true, you get your crappy floors (monday we got back to back "Kill Specified Enemies" floors (chariots were the enemy /sigh) or we get a Dahak on a kill all enemies floor, but still, thats just Nyzul being the fickle mistress she is. Doesnt stop her from being easy at times right?

Nyzul Isle can be one of two women at different times; either the whore (who sleeps with everyone), or the bitch (whore who sleeps with everyone BUT you).

[Nuriko]

Honestly, I'm in a static for Nyzul as WHM mostly ... we did the whole climb with WHM+RDM combo when posible. It allowed for far more flexibility, we could split into 2 teams on 'all' floors, more crowd control, and just generally able to handle melees running off to fight the other mob. Not to mention that we could reasonably support the melee in two different spots where aggro was being troublesome on lamps floors...

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Nuriko

Honestly, I'm in a static for Nyzul as WHM mostly ... we did the whole climb with WHM+RDM combo when posible. It allowed for far more flexibility, we could split into 2 teams on 'all' floors, more crowd control, and just generally able to handle melees running off to fight the other mob. Not to mention that we could reasonably support the melee in two different spots where aggro was being troublesome on lamps floors...

My static did WHM+RDM too - the RDM pulled on all enemies floors. (Still does, actually, since we do a couple of loot runs a week mixed with Assault - now we're trying to get everyone to Captain too.) The RDM is also usually the one to run back to rune during a fight against the last enemy on all or family floors (and sometimes leader). It gives me a lot to live up to when I get into pickup runs on my RDM.

Repose is damn useful sometimes (just the fact of having a second CC-capable player is good, but having it work on dark resistant mobs is even better). SCH+RDM would probably be good too, since the SCH can help nuke slimes, flans, etc., but when you have a RDM already, WHM's lack of "native" (who plays without a SJ after level 18 anyway?) MP recovery doesn't really matter. (SCH + WHM/SCH might work too, if the SCH is flexible enough.)

P.S. Not all chariots are hosers IMO, only the brainjack one. The rest are vicious but winnable. Not entirely coincidentally, the charm spamming frog will also hose you. IDK what the devs were thinking putting mobs in Nyzul that could charm multiple people at once. That's ridiculously hard to deal with in a 6 person party. Even if you manage to get them crowd controlled before they kill anyone (which is a *very* big if), you've still lost a ton of damage and usually your main tank.

P.P.S. That reminds me, Auspice is huge in Nyzul. Having the same static including a WHM before and after it was introduced, you can really see how much of a difference it makes against all those family and leader mobs with really nasty tp moves - chariots, flayers, frogs, etc. In exp, players normally seek out the mob families with the weakest, most unthreatening TP moves to fight (y hello thar, snatch morsel and feather tickle!), which makes Auspice less important. In Nyzul, you have to take what you get. There's no hippogryphs or tonberries, but quite a bit of stuff where giving it less TP can save you a lot of pain and sometimes even a death or two.

[Aylmer]

Well mainly I was just looking at small assistance outside of subs. Like paladin and summoner gettng auto refresh at 30ish and 25 plus BLM, SCH, DRK getting something earlier or in mid 30's with aspir. RDM and SCH also get Refresh and Sublimation at 41 and 37 respectively. Even BLU gets an auto refresh, granted much much later with spell combos. WHM gets nothing. I have no problem with MP mitigation but just wondered wouldn't it be "evening out the playing field" if WHM was given something outside of a sub?

[Armando]

You have to consider that PLD and BLU generally don't have the luxury of resting mid-fight. SMN also can't rest as long as it has an avatar out. It makes sense for them to have Auto Refresh so they can go longer periods without rest.

WHM gets Flash which mitigates a shitload of damage as well as higher tier Regens and Cure V which are more MP-efficient than subbable Cures (well, higher tier Regens aren't really more MP-efficient but they regen at a faster rate, which is just as important.) Not to mention their MP-efficiency went up even more with the addition of Stoneskin on their Cures under the right Afflatus. You also ignore that PLD and DRK don't get Clear Mind, whereas WHM has several levels of it.

You can't look at the "playing field" being uneven just because WHM lacks a tangible means of MP regeneration. Different jobs have A) different MP expenditures over time; B) different sub viability (e.g. DRK/SCH doesn't fly); C) different resting "availability" (in battle vs between battles) and resting durations; D) different levels of Clear Mind; E) different amount of MP load alleviation (other jobs can lessen the healer's load; a BLU or DRK's MP expenditures are more or less static). It's not as clean cut as "WHM lacks a native MP regen so it's disadvantaged."

[Nuriko]

I usually sub SMN in Nyzul anyway ... SCH might be more useful from an MP-recovery standpoint (once I finish levelling it), but there have been times where I've actually pulled from a crowd. You know the ones, where no matter what you do, something WILL link? Out comes Carby, /ja assault <t>, and run before it dies!

[Elwynn]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Well mainly I was just looking at small assistance outside of subs. Like paladin and summoner gettng auto refresh at 30ish and 25

WHM still gets to wear Noble's Tunic. Sure, that's not much compared to how much MP goes out, but it's the same amount that PLD and SMN are getting. At least it's not a "no headgear" body piece, like BLM's Black Cloak.

Also, WHM/BLM gets the benefit of Conserve MP, but you can forget about Aspir with half-skill Dark Magic. Aspir should work fine for RDM/BLM, though.

[Aylmer]

I agree elwynn and armando. Thanks for the info. Like I said I have no problem keeping my mp up and available with out supporting members or a sub at higher level parties with WHM. Just wanted exactly why WHM didn't but I agree the gear for WHM helps along with spells and new abilities. Thanks.

[Firewind]

Doesn't WHM/SCH get access to Conserve MP? I don't use/BLM much anyway, only for the MAB really. I'll probably switch to it when I might need warp or a lot of DoT since I can just bring meds to make up for losing sublimation.

The only thing I have ever questioned is why WHM is the only pure mage class that doesn't have some kind of aspir like ability (Aspir, Elemental Syphon) natively. All things considered I can hardly see how it would unbalance the game at all. How many exp/merit mobs actually have MP? Now how many exp/merit parties will actually leave thier precious Lolibri camps?

Honestly I can only see it being useful for campaign (and maybe HNMs depending on resists) and if anything something like Aspir or Syphon would make WHMs more likely to actually give melees thier precious cures in campaign without having to worry about thier sublimation being canceled every other cure because nobody bothers tanking the NMs that you see melees zerging all the time.

You also ignore that PLD and DRK don't get Clear Mind, whereas WHM has several levels of it.

WHMs alongside SCHs also have the lowest level of Clear Mind and the lowest base MP for all pure mages. I didn't count RDM due to Convert, Refresh and the fact that thier subjob changes depending on the situation. I also can't remember what level in Clear Mind SCH gets but they generally can't rest with Sublimation up without a subjob anyway so I counted them. If I remember right Blue Mage gets the same level in clear mind as WHM and they rarely have the chance to use that.

Do DRKs and PLDs need Clear Mind? They do have full strength Aspirs and they can equip the Parade Gorget. PLDs can easily hit 3MP/tick with Auto Refresh, P Gorget and Sanction which is more then enough for thier small MP pools. I don't think I've ever dipped below 100MP on PLD when there's a RDM in the party and I spam Cures for hate as a reflex action from 75 levels of WHM . And you also have to remember that the average pickup DRK or PLD tends to completely forget that they even have magic spells in the first place so I doubt that giving PLD or DRK something stupid like Clear Mind V or even Refresh would make much of a difference

I will add in a more unbiased opinion as my final comment. IMO the class that is in need of MP regen tricks the most out of all pure mage classes is BLM. The zerge mentality in most parties means that if you cant get your MP back quickly you have no place in a party. Even with all of the nice additions WHM has had recently we still need to fight tooth and nail for our party positions. I would say that 60% of my merit party invites have been sympathy invites from friends and LS members for that reason. We are having this debate about WHM when really the class that needs more tricks to help them justify thier position in parties are the poor Black Mages.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Firewind

The only thing I have ever questioned is why WHM is the only pure mage class that doesn't have some kind of aspir like ability (Aspir, Elemental Syphon) natively.

Aspir and Elemental Siphon do not seem similar at all to me; Aspir is dependent on monsters, while Elemental Siphon does not.

Aspir is most similar to... um.. Magic Hammer. And, Aspir Samba, I suppose.

Originally Posted by Firewind

WHMs alongside SCHs also have the lowest level of Clear Mind and the lowest base MP for all pure mages. I didn't count RDM due to Convert, Refresh and the fact that thier subjob changes depending on the situation.

Your accounting system is weird. RDM has only Clear Mind III--lower than WHM, no if's, and's, or, but's about it. Changing SJ would not change that fact at all. WHM/SCH has higher base MP tthan RDM/anything except /SMN--and /SMN is really not used much for RDM.

If you mean RDM has better MP recovery, that's what you should say instead of making weird statements like WHMs have lowest of Clear Mind and lowest base MP.

Originally Posted by Firewind

I will add in a more unbiased opinion as my final comment. IMO the class that is in need of MP regen tricks the most out of all pure mage classes is BLM. The zerge mentality in most parties means that if you cant get your MP back quickly you have no place in a party. Even with all of the nice additions WHM has had recently we still need to fight tooth and nail for our party positions. I would say that 60% of my merit party invites have been sympathy invites from friends and LS members for that reason. We are having this debate about WHM when really the class that needs more tricks to help them justify thier position in parties are the poor Black Mages.

So, adding chain nuking to WS spam... /sigh

To be honest, I rather nerf melees and majorly buff SC+MB instead. No chance of that coming true, though. At least, not the nerfing part--too many players will cry and get upset.

[Armando]

I'm no BLM but I'm almost 100% sure it's impossible for BLM to A) do equal damage to the other melees in a TP burn party; and B) never sit any fight out; without the job becoming broken.

BLM will never have a place in an infinite chain TP burn party. The only solution for BLM is to change how EXP is calculated in such a way that a balanced/traditional party fighting IT mobs can make equal EXP to a TP burn.

Also on the topic of Parade Gorget, the amount of time PLDs spend at 85+% HP is certainly not the majority in an EXP party (with the possible exception of TP burns) so Parade Gorget most certainly doesn't add up to 1 MP/tick in practice (although I'm not trying to imply it doesn't contribute, either.)