I've not had the game for long but from what I have seen it really depends on the player. I have been in a party where the Paladin was a useless tank who had no idea how to hold hate which resulted in the Damage dealers (A Black Mage and a Samurai) and the White Mage (me) drawing pretty much all of the hate resulting in the fastest wipe I've ever seen. The Paladin didn't even provoke until after half of the party had died and there was nobody there to keep him healed.
On the other hand I've seen some bad mages. A few nights ago I saw a red Mage who did nothing but melee. He didn't bother to enfeeble or backup heal so I found myself regularly running out of MP due to having to main heal alone in the Dunes and having to keep up the enfeebles. Then there was the Black Mage this morning who wouldn't stop nuking and died about 3 times in a row.
I'm really sorry to hear that you ran into some bad mages. Like I said I'm fairly new at the game (I'm only at Lv14) but I do enjoy being a White Mage. It can get frustrating and hair-pulling at times but I really love that job. And to be honest from what I have played I find that Tanks are much more enjoyable to party with because they don't need babysitting. I have partied with a ninja before and he needed almost constant supervision while the Paladin only needed a cure every now and then.
I think it is much easier to generate fast hate with PLD/WAR that NIN/WAR sure, but each has their own drawbacks and advantages.
I wont even begin to list them, and I dont really have a preference in endgame. Meripo, which I dont do very often anyway (manaburn waaaay less stressful/interesting/etc) I'd prefer a NIN tank. In the typical TP Burn, good NIN tanks w3ill draw in more exp/hr than with a good PLD tank. But that's only my perference in meripo.
In endgame stuffs, RDM/NIN/PLD - all good, so long as they know what they are doing.
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Re: Where Did The Real Mages Go?
In general, PLD tank is safer in exp. party, NIN tank is higher risk but higher reward.
I had level both PLD and NIN to the lvl 70~. NIN tank take "little" damage in "every" exp. party is a misconception. If the setting is right, yes, NIN tank is awesome: Slow hitting mobs, Haste the NIN, NIN use his tools, some hate control from party's help..... However, look at the favorite exp. camp in ToAU area, those mobs are there to destroy blink tanking (as main tank, non TP-burn style).
After all those PLD's adjustment (Auto Refresh, Shield, JA, etc), the gap between NIN tank and PLD tank in terms of taking damage, is bridged. Nowadays the mages have easier time with PLD tanks in exp. parties, much easier than the time when I level my PLD before those PLD's adjustments.
When I was a w hite mage I actually prefered paladins. Most ninjas tended to get hit a lot even after level 37. I can also cure a paladin without as much fear of reprisal, since they can hold hate sooooooooooooo much better. @_@
I also tend to prefer PLD tanks (I don't do endgame stuff, so I have no comment there). While I have seen some NINs that can hold hate pretty well, they tend to take a lot more "spike" damage when shadows are down. Whereas, with PLDs, you can generally just regen and toss the occasional cure.
I used to like PLDs on WHM when I was playing it full time, it was nice to have someone I knew could take a few hits. When I switched over to SMN, the types of mobs we were doing (CoP), were more the slow, hard hitting ones like dhalmels, in which case NIN tanks really shined. I liked the fact that NIN could avoid the damage and I could actually play SMN for a bit, pulling out avatars, Earthen Wards, etc. Since TAU, though, things have swung the other way. PLD is actually better against those mobs, since they hit fast, but not very hard. For something with high def and high shield skill, that translates to less damage over time and not burning through NIN tools like the alternative. I think PLD is still suffering from the post CoP backlash, where they weren't the best option at the time. Hopefully that changes with time. We're a lot older playerbase now, people have bad habits built up and several jobs leveled. You're going to see bad players and people set in doing things a certain way. It'll be kind of like DRG was, where you have to convince people you're useful in a party.
On a WHM, though, nothing really beats switching off Flash with the tank... each one is like a Cure V or Cure IV I never have to cast.
To me, when it comes to a PLD versus Ninja tank, I normally chose Paladins because I've had many good experiences with them. For one, they not only have some (imo) powerful tools to keep hate - a good cure can grab any mob's attention - but they also don't have to spend craploads of money to actually do the tanking, so I don't have to hear at some point "I'm out of shihei" or anything like that.
I'm not against them, but many ninjas I've met tend to have egos. Maybe because being rich enough to play ninja gets to their head?
Ninja tanks do have areas where they shine, yes, and I've met some awesome ninjas, but I'll always <3 Paladin tanks.
IME, good PLD = good NIN, but mediocre PLD > mediocre NIN. PLD tanking is harder to screw up, so I feel safer when I see a PLD tank; the presence of a PLD means that unless the player is a total moron, we'll probably be fine in the tanking department. And yes, I love the opportunity to get the most out of Regen III.
That said, there is such a thing as an MP sponge PLD -- and it has little to do with gear and everything to do with being that total moron. I've encountered PLDs who, believe it or not, don't self-heal. They seem to believe that their MP pool is there for Flash alone, and lean on others for curing. Not only does this mean that they're draining party resources, but it also means that they don't hold hate very well. -- Pteryx
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Re: Where Did The Real Mages Go?
Paladins actually have a slightly better Healing Magic Skill than Red Mages.
Use it whenever you can.
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Re: Where Did The Real Mages Go?
Originally Posted by Pteryx
That said, there is such a thing as an MP sponge PLD -- and it has little to do with gear and everything to do with being that total moron. I've encountered PLDs who, believe it or not, don't self-heal. They seem to believe that their MP pool is there for Flash alone, and lean on others for curing. Not only does this mean that they're draining party resources, but it also means that they don't hold hate very well. -- Pteryx
Well, to be fair, I've seen PLDs who terrible at tanking due to bad gearing. (Great Sword? No shield? What the heck?!) Then, there's the Galka PLD, with a whopping native MP of 143 at Lv.75--they are just a bit more dependent on MP/enmity gear than say, a Tarutaru.
Between Refresh, Auto Refresh, Sanction, and Parade Gorget (to a lesser extend), a PLD gets roughly 5+ MP/tick on average, assuming the RDM isn't overlapping Refresh so there are a few second gap between applications of the spell. That's 100 MP/min, or a little over. (Definitely under 120 MP/min.) Flash every 40 seconds (which is possible if PLD has Haste) works out to be 36 MP/min, that leaves 66 MP/min for curing (86 MP/min with Parade Gorget and white HP full-time).
Cure III is 46 MP, which means a PLD can't sustain two Cure III a minute, unless he has buffer MP going into the fight. Quite a few PLDs don't even bother with Cure III, and instead only uses the 88 MP Cure IV, no matter if they are missing 600 HP or 200 HP, or if the mages are casting large cures or not.
Obviously, Flashing less frequently will leave more MP for cures, but that's likely counter productive for both enmity generation and MP conservation.
* * *
Not just PLDs, but I've seen RDM's dropping Cure IV's on PLDs and nothing but. Never understood that.
* * *
I still chuckle a little every time someone mentions that a Galka PLD can't raise without MP gear or merit.
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That said, there is such a thing as an MP sponge PLD -- and it has little to do with gear and everything to do with being that total moron. I've encountered PLDs who, believe it or not, don't self-heal. They seem to believe that their MP pool is there for Flash alone, and lean on others for curing. Not only does this mean that they're draining party resources, but it also means that they don't hold hate very well. -- Pteryx
I know exactly what you mean Pteryx! A pld that dies with full mp and b**ches at the healer who has next to no mp! Been there and done that way too many times. I do agree that there are way too many spoiled mages that were power leveled by lsmates and then merit with nins and /nins so they can watch tv. Then they app to your hnm, get in, and you think they bought the damn account they suck sooooooooooooooo badly! I, for one, am a mage that enjoys healing; even on my rdm/whm!
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Coming from both a RDM75 and PLD75, I love my PLD's.
I was in a static from mid 20's to mid 60's with a RL PLD friend, it was the best thing to have a tank you could trust.
More on topic: I've always been more on the blood-tanking side of things, You'll usually see me as PLD/RDM or RDM/PLD when i'm soloing.
Seeing a PLD, or any tank for that matter, getting hit and taking damage is such a normal occurance in this game. I really admired PLD's while i was playing around on RDM and WHM, the fact that could they take damage with a smile, and dish it back was awesome.
Off topic: BBQ, I'm surprised you said RDM's in merit parties can just AFK. I've always thought of fellow BRDs, CORs, WHMs, and RDMs in the same boat as me when i was main healing merit parties. Meaning we did most of the work, while the DDs got to swing their weapon of choice for a couple hours and recast Ni once in awhile.
In all the pt's I've been in, and thats only rdm to 50/51, I love PLD sooo much more then NIN's. It just seems that you don't get as much of the mob running towards the mages if you have a PLD tank as opposed to the NIN Blink tank. Even if NIN is subbed WAR. PLD/WAR is better IMO!
Off topic: BBQ, I'm surprised you said RDM's in merit parties can just AFK. I've always thought of fellow BRDs, CORs, WHMs, and RDMs in the same boat as me when i was main healing merit parties. Meaning we did most of the work, while the DDs got to swing their weapon of choice for a couple hours and recast Ni once in awhile.
I'd include RDM if more than one out of every five gave my COR Haste.
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