Post 2hand Update - WHM Melee w/Staff

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Does it make sense for staff users to melee?

The 1 DEX = 1 ACC and 1 STR = 1 ATK changes certainly could help staff users with Spirit Taker get back mp from fighting, but would it really be enough? I just put together an example of a White Mage character below fighting Greater Colibri, and I think this might actually be feasible. Summoners could do this even more easily since they naturally have higher skill.

What are your thoughts?

Example:

Character
Lv75 Elvaan WHM/WAR with Max Staff Merits

Equipment
Main: Martial Staff (DMG56, DLY390, TP Bonus)
Off-hand: Pole Strap (Double Attack+2%)
Ammo: Tiphia Sting (HP-25, ACC+2, ATK+2)
Head: Optical Hat (ACC+10)
Neck: Chivalrous Chain (STR+3, ACC+5, Store TP+1)
Earring1: Brutal Earring (Double Attack+5%, Store TP+1)
Earring2: Magnetic Earring (MP+20, Conserve MP+5)
Body: Noble's Tunic (MP+17, Refresh, Cure Potency+10%)
Hands: Blessed Mitts (MP+15, MND+7, Haste+5%, Enimity-3)
Ring1: Thunder Ring (DEX+5, MND+2)
Ring2: Thunder Ring (DEX+5, MND+2)
Back: Rainbow Cape (HP+9, MP+9, INT+3, MND+3)
Waist: Life Belt (ACC+10)
Legs: Blessed Trousers (MP+25, MND+6, Haste+3%, Enimity-5)
Feet: Blessed Pumps (MP+17, MND+3, Haste+2%, Enimity-4)
Food: Sole Sushi (HP+20, STR+5, DEX+6, ACC+15%)

Stats
HP: 1165+9+20-25=1169
MP: 479+20+17+15+9+25+17=582+1MP/3SEC
STR: 72+3+5=80
DEX: 56+5+5+6=72
MND: 73+7+2+2+3+6+3=96
INT: 52+3=55
+ATK: +2
+ACC: +2+10+5+10=+27+15%
Store TP: 1+1=2

Double Attack: 10%+5%+2%=17%
Haste: +5%+3%+2%=+10%
Enimity: -3-5-4=-12

Staff Skill: 230+16=246
Attack: 8+246+80+10+2=346+15%=398 (average with berserk)
Accuracy: 200+46*0.9+72+27=338*1.15=391

Enemy
Lv82 Greater Colibri
Defense: 327
Evasion: 339
VIT: 67

Hit Rate: 75% + (391-339)*0.5% + (75-83)*4*0.5% = 85%
cRatio = 398/327-(83-75)*0.05 = 0.81
pDIFF = ??? Not sure how to get this now.
Spirit Taker Damage/MP Return = 56+(80-67+4)/4+(96+55)*0.5*0.83*1.5*0.81? = 147

Summary
Hit Rate: 85%
Spirit Taker MP Return: 147MP
Haste: 25%
Double Attack: 17%
Average <50 seconds to 100TP
(9 Swings after weaponskil with 4.875 second delay, 83% accuracy, and 15% double attack rate)

A White Mage resting with Clear Mind IV and Dark Staff will only get about 158MP in 50 seconds of continuous resting. I'm sure with the right gear swaps they could get around 210MP, but still 147MP v. 210MP isn't too bad. And as mentioned below, the WHM will be getting additional buffs from the BRD or COR.

Obviously we could still use a little more accuracy, but this would be reasonable. Also imagine fighting crappy stuff where you could use meat. I could see Spirit Taker returning over 500MP.

[IfritnoItazura]

BRDs and CORs will love that, since they'd be freed from having to do a Ballad or Evoker/Healer buff rotation. ^_-

Minuet x2 for all!

[Olorin401]

Mmmmm... White Mage melee just got that much better.

Maybe we can actually solo EM & T mobs now without having to go /NIN?

[Silent Howler]

I'm not sure if Whm will be able to solo Toughs, but even matches could be possible. I haven't done a lot of testing since I've been playing with Blu lately, but while I was getting the items I needed to get Blu (and to get to Whitegate) I was using Whm and did notice some improvement when using a staff.

[Necropolis]

Well it looks interesting, but I'd still be leary of trying it in a typical pick-up party. You're severly limiting you MP pool, and throwing away 10% cure potency by not using Light Staff/Templar Mace.

Colibri I suppose couldn't hurt, as they don't have any devastating AoE, but I'd use caution when fighting anything with AoE effects, as you just added 1 more person to the cycle.

While you're estimating 50 seconds between TP moves, is that with normal spell casting inbetween? I'm assuming a party where you have a full haste cycle (minus the bards), occasional cures, perhaps a dia in the mix. I'd think that'd slow down your TP gain a little.

I certainly don't think we'd improve party exp anymore than if we just focused on back line support, but perhaps something fun to play with with friends in the party.

Could be fun for some T-VT soloing if you don't feel like partying, but not sure if whm will become the new DD mage. Keep in mind with this update, lots of melee have switched to 2hand weapons, and arn't always subbing nin for shadows. This just means more work on us to keep them alive.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Mainly I find people don't want to invite a WHM to merits, so I was wondering if they could add some damage to the party while still doing their primary duties. There are several mentions of Colibri being extremely boring for the mage on these forums, but I believe most of those messages were from RDM.

I was comparing MP gain between meleeing and resting since of course spell casting time should be about the same for both setups. Mostly I'm just curious if the WHM can be happily added back into the merit scene. I'm sure this will be far more practical in other situations where the MP return could be higher due to higher ATK/DEF ratio. Also I think WHM rely more on Regen III against weak enemies such as Colibri. However, I believe there is a whole lot of truth in the fact that melee are now taking more damage as they move from using NIN subjob to SAM subjob. We would probably have to find a way to get an even greater return from Spirit Taker, which is possible with Minuet x 2.

I'm certainly not against having this idea torn to bits since I haven't even started meriting my first job. I usually make all of my parties though, and I prefer people come and have fun rather than be bored. I haven't gotten to do much of anything other than run BCNM40 Under Observation since the latest update. I've been getting funds to re-equip Ryoii as an Engetsuto SAM/WAR instead of a Shigeto SAM/RNG.

However I can say that my C+ rated polearm will do more damage than Onimaru or Hagun with the latest update because I got a 'free' 40 accuracy. I already tried it out a little, and my hit rate is over 70% using meat without a Haubergeon and Optical Hat against VT enemies. Once I have those pieces of gear I'll have a hit rate in the mid 80s. Then with merits in polearm, I'll get into the 90s. I believe I can get 95% hit rate and a 5 hit TP build using meat once I have all my merits. Right now I can get a 5 hit build, but it requires I use my Hachiman body, which limits my accuracy. If I'm not fighting Colibri, I can use Carbonara and retain my 5 hit build while using Haubergeon.

Sorry for going on a bit of a tangent, but I'm just trying to show that this update has indeed changed things.

Ryoii - Lv73 Mithra SAM/WAR
Nonomii - Lv73 Tarutaru RDM/WHM

[Necropolis]

I agree fully that the two-hand update did marvels for everyone that uses them, and I'm sure that a whm melee *could* work in some setups. Personally I enjoy whm burn parties in KRT and the such, and I like the idea of being effecient at my main job while getting to add some, if not much, damage to the party.

My main concern would the caliber of players I'm partying with. Do they proper gear for them to not be complete MP sponges; do they know how to bounce hate; are we skillchaining/magic bursting; and many other factors that you just can't tell for a /sea all 75.

Personally I've had some success with tanking even as /nin as long as there is a thf in the party. With our copious amounts of haste gear available to us, we can attain the minimum recast on Utsusemi much easier and cheaper than melee.

Another concern would be the white mage himself. There are, in my opinion two types of white mages; those who enjoy mage like or support jobs, and those that just like leveling a varity of jobs. Most whms that merit on whm are typically the former; they like the support role, and even if they were to attempt this, they would most likely not have the proper gear and macros to make it work. The second type would most likely have at least the gear to swap in and out for WS and melee and such.

It seems like a fun idea, and something I'll probably try at some point with friends; but outside of that I usually save my melee whm for missions/quest/NMs as opposed to merits or exp. I'm also 100% against your idea because I recently finished breaking the latent on Morgenstern and enjoy the TP return on my Hexastrikes far too much to let it go.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

I was only thinking about meleeing with a staff as a way to allow the WHM to avoid resting. The little bit of damage would not factor in much. If the WHM can already avoid resting, they should probably be using a club for Hexa Strike as you suggest since they already have 26 more skill, which could give them a hit rate above 80% with sushi.

Also you make a good point about how many WHM are likely unprepared for how to melee and keep up their primary responsibilities. I've always made individual cure macros for each party member to avoid delays from targetting even though I've never meleed in a party as RDM.

Thinking about this more, I think PLD/WAR would probably benefit the most from trying this since they could use meat and contribute a more significant amount of damage while main healing. I don't really expect them to be tanking while doing this. We would still let the other melee bounce hate. I'm quite sure that there were paladins taking advantage of this prior to the patch anyway though.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

It is also worth noteing that a meleeing WHM will be able to cast Flash whenever a person's shadows or third-eye effect disappears. This will help keep the WHM on their toes and interested.