[Irisjir Callard]

Originally Posted by Amele

in both cases, I personally wouldn't put any points into Protect V, but I could see spending one just to unlock the spell and shut people who don't understand defense curves up lol.

QFT.

People also seem to think WHM has unlimited merits for some reason...currently deciding what to do with my merits has taken a back seat to getting some.

I have managed to max out Devotion, currently pending more merit points before I make any more decisions.

[Amele]

Originally Posted by Irisjir Callard

QFT.
People also seem to think WHM has unlimited merits for some reason...currently deciding what to do with my merits has taken a back seat to getting some.
I have managed to max out Devotion, currently pending more merit points before I make any more decisions.

well, it's less that people assume that whitemage has unlimited merits and more that people misunderstand the benefits of protect vs devotion and martyr (or even shell)

examples: how often in merit are you really fighting something that has significant magic capability?

what good is a high hate cure 3.5 once every 20 minutes?

why do we need a whitemage to give people mp?

(there are of course, good answers to all of these).

the other half of that is most people just assume that, like the Tier II ancient magics, Pro V is as big a step up over Pro IV as Pro IV was over Pro III; when this simply isn't the case.

if Pro V was +20base/+10per extra defense, then it *might* be worth it. (it still wouldn't be for me but it would make the category less of a joke)

[Saren]

So its merit time for me and I’m a bit undecided. I have a few but its slow going because most of what I’m doing at the moment is CoP missions so meriting in bits of spare time through Campaign.

My plan for the whm specific merits has been to max out cure cast time, barspells, Devotion and shellra 5. I'm still a little unsure about the group one merits, I initially wanted to merit regen instead of cure cast time but Dynamis changed my mind a little, will have to wait and see what other endgame activities are like before I fully decide on that I think.


I have a question and a worry.

Question first: The +2MDB on barspell merits, is that a +2 general magic defence bonus for having a barspell on so up to a cap of +10MDB for having two barspells up? Just curious because it sounds a little too good to be true.

The worry: Being strongly recommended or outright told to get protectra 5 by other 75 whms (people who are good at their job but not as into reading up as I am) and I don’t really want to get it because maths wise, it looks awful >< and most people here have confirmed that. The only advantage I can really see to it is that it seems to have a huge range which looks handy for grabbing the people who don’t listen to gather together requests but I'm wavering over whether to get one level just to avoid hassle.

Whenever I bring up the maths of why protectra 5 is bad the most sensible response I have had back is ‘well pld need every point of defence they can get’ which I’m just not buying, 5 points is a bit under 2% of my defence at level 75 and it’s going to be a lot less than that for a pld. I guess what I’m really asking is whether anyone has experience, preferably numbers on protectra 5s lack of effectiveness?

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by Saren

So its merit time for me and I’m a bit undecided. I have a few but its slow going because most of what I’m doing at the moment is CoP missions so meriting in bits of spare time through Campaign.

My plan for the whm specific merits has been to max out cure cast time, barspells, Devotion and shellra 5. I'm still a little unsure about the group one merits, I initially wanted to merit regen instead of cure cast time but Dynamis changed my mind a little, will have to wait and see what other endgame activities are like before I fully decide on that I think.

If you do a lot of endgame, Cure Cast time is your best friend. It will do more for you than any other merit you can invest in.

Question first: The +2MDB on barspell merits, is that a +2 general magic defence bonus for having a barspell on so up to a cap of +10MDB for having two barspells up? Just curious because it sounds a little too good to be true.

It applies only to elemental barspells, not the bar-status spells.

Even so, +4 MDB in situations where you need barspells (Bomb Toss, Stonega IV, Inferno Blast, etc.) can't be downplayed.

The worry: Being strongly recommended or outright told to get protectra 5 by other 75 whms (people who are good at their job but not as into reading up as I am) and I don’t really want to get it because maths wise, it looks awful >< and most people here have confirmed that. The only advantage I can really see to it is that it seems to have a huge range which looks handy for grabbing the people who don’t listen to gather together requests but I'm wavering over whether to get one level just to avoid hassle.

Protectra V sucks. Take it from someone who plays white mage as primary and has been playing since June 2003.

I put 3 levels in Devotion, 1 level in Martyr, and 2 levels in Shellra V. I'm considering dropping 1 level of Devotion or Martyr and maxing Shellra V, but it's a tough call.

Whenever I bring up the maths of why protectra 5 is bad the most sensible response I have had back is ‘well pld need every point of defence they can get’ which I’m just not buying, 5 points is a bit under 2% of my defence at level 75 and it’s going to be a lot less than that for a pld. I guess what I’m really asking is whether anyone has experience, preferably numbers on protectra 5s lack of effectiveness?

Protectra V doesn't do anything. It's all placebo effect. Shellra V produces visible change in the damage numbers. Protecta V does not, due to the way ATK <> DEF comparisons work.


Icemage

[Saren]

Thanks Icemage that was really helpful I've got 2 levels of cure cast time and working on capping that first, after getting devotion unlocked it seemed like the most pressing thing to get (damn dynamis lag and general damage speed)

Originally Posted by Icemage

Take it from someone who plays white mage as primary and has been playing since June 2003.

Not that I don't agree with you but this made me smile because it's exactly the reason most people have been giving me to justify the opposite point of view when I've questioned them on it

I've worked my way through VZX's doc and the magic damage stuff on wiki a few times and assuming I understand it correctly, the only time I can see Protectra 5 making any difference at all is when the mob has super high attack (so....HNM only?) and even then tiny tiny percentage increase in defense which won't even give you a linear damage reduction which when you compare it to Shellra 5 is just crappy.

Just wanted to make sure I haven't overlooked something basic really.

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by Saren

Thanks Icemage that was really helpful I've got 2 levels of cure cast time and working on capping that first, after getting devotion unlocked it seemed like the most pressing thing to get (damn dynamis lag and general damage speed)

The lag at end-game is a big reason for why Cure Cast Time is so potent. Maxed Cure Cast Time merits make you as fast or faster than a Red Mage, which not only makes your tanks safer, but also makes it easier to manage in kiting battles.

Not that I don't agree with you but this made me smile because it's exactly the reason most people have been giving me to justify the opposite point of view when I've questioned them on it

Oh, no doubt.

I've worked my way through VZX's doc and the magic damage stuff on wiki a few times and assuming I understand it correctly, the only time I can see Protectra 5 making any difference at all is when the mob has super high attack (so....HNM only?) and even then tiny tiny percentage increase in defense which won't even give you a linear damage reduction which when you compare it to Shellra 5 is just crappy.

Just wanted to make sure I haven't overlooked something basic really.

You haven't missed anything. If 5 extra defense were really all that and a bag of chips, endgame paladins would be wearing Phalanx Rings (DEF +10).

A better example would be Defender. How much damage difference do you actually see when a PLD/WAR at endgame uses Defender (answer: not so very much)? That's a +25% boost to DEF, which for a Paladin is likely going to end up being maybe 100 points, and yet they still take lots of damage.

Ask your friendly neighborhood Blue Mage how much difference Coccoon does for their damage against IT++ enemies (answer: it helps a little, but not much).

The trouble isn't so much that Defense is bad; it's that the level differential at endgame ends up making DEF a much smaller part of the damage formula than the fact that the enemy is level 90+. When there's a 15+ level difference between you and what's hitting you, 5 DEF pales into insignificance.

MDEF from Shellra V, on the other hand, is a much more consistent defense against magic damage, and in an area where players normally have little to no defense to begin with.


Icemage

[Olorin401]

I'll hafta agree with Icemage on this one. Protectra V isn't really worth pumping in a bunch of merits. I did at the very least open it up though.

I also had level 3 Regen Potency for a long time, but that was before I got Cleric's Briault and got heavy into endgame stuff. I rolled those back and put them into Barspell merits instead.

My current WHM-related merits:

5 Barspell Effect
5 Cure Cast Time
1 Protectra V
3 Shellra V
1 Martyr
1 Devotion
2 MP
3 Enfeebling Magic

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Icemage

A better example would be Defender. How much damage difference do you actually see when a PLD/WAR at endgame uses Defender (answer: not so very much)? That's a +25% boost to DEF, which for a Paladin is likely going to end up being maybe 100 points, and yet they still take lots of damage.

Ask your friendly neighborhood Blue Mage how much difference Coccoon does for their damage against IT++ enemies (answer: it helps a little, but not much).

QFT, and something I'm sure all of us would like to see changed.

Personally, my vote goes towards Regen Potency and either Barspells or Cure Speed.

[Temagori]

Originally Posted by Feenicks

:
HP/MP: For WHM, MP all the way. Yes, more HP will give you better survivability and a better Devotion/Martyr but +80MP is not to be snuffed at. In my honest opinion, all mage jobs should merit MP, everyone else should merit HP.

I just don't see why anyone in their right mind would merit HP... Unelss maybe you are a PLD. Maybe it is my biast towards jobs with MP, but I find MP merits help universally with the fact that many people sub mages for soloing.

Even if you don't sub a mage it boosts dramatically any actual mage job, especially in the early levels. HP seems like a waste to me from a 75WHM standpoint. 10mp = 1 Cure 30MP= 1 Cure II 80MP= Lots of curing lol

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Temagori

I just don't see why anyone in their right mind would merit HP... Unelss maybe you are a PLD. Maybe it is my biast towards jobs with MP, but I find MP merits help universally with the fact that many people sub mages for soloing.

Yay necro post.

DRK can merit HP too to get a little more umph out of Soul Eater and Dread Spikes, and MNKs for their Melee Attire. Some Taru SMNs merit too for survivability. Other than that yah HP merits aren't generally so hot outside of end game PLD and DRK.

[Callisto]

I guess since someone else made the necro I'll chip in with this:

Order of the Blue Gartr &bull; View topic - Cure Cast Time - Detailed Testing (Updated:4/30/08)

From what I can tell in regards to Cure Cast Time merits, there seems to be a sort of tiered system where certain %'s of casting time reduction actually have a noticeable effect(I was a little fuzzy on this part, but the OP is supposed to add more info to clear that up soon)...the short end of it being that with the new hotness that is /SCH, only having 2 Cure Cast Time merits + Cure Clogs would see the same effect as full Cure Cast Time merits(I believe this is without Loq/Marduk body), meaning you can save 3 merit slots for Regen effect.

I'm not a WHM so I'm not sure what to make of it, but if you're interested there's that.

[Saren]

Why make a new thread when there's already one on the forum that's exactly what you are looking for?

I was reading this the other week actually and slightly fuzzy on the details aswell from what the poster said.

I think I might have to get some of these and play around a bit. The only thing that slightly worries me about the whole method is that the only time I'm seriously worried about getting off fast cures is when I'm lagged and lots of gear swapping when I'm laggy doesn't always work so well.

[Feenicks]

Originally Posted by Temagori

I just don't see why anyone in their right mind would merit HP... Unelss maybe you are a PLD. Maybe it is my biast towards jobs with MP, but I find MP merits help universally with the fact that many people sub mages for soloing.

Even if you don't sub a mage it boosts dramatically any actual mage job, especially in the early levels. HP seems like a waste to me from a 75WHM standpoint. 10mp = 1 Cure 30MP= 1 Cure II 80MP= Lots of curing lol

Actually since I've posted that, I've kind of changed my stance a little. I've actually put four merits into HP and four into MP. I have quite a lot of HP+ gear as well as MP+ and the extra HP not only helps you stay alive a bit longer but also gives you better results for Devotion, Martyr and Sublimation. Sublimation is particularly important because the more MP you can get out of that the better. These days Max MP as a WHM isn't as important as it used to be because there are so many ways of recovering your MP quickly.

Also it's fun having 1000+ HP as a taru mage.

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by Feenicks

Actually since I've posted that, I've kind of changed my stance a little. I've actually put four merits into HP and four into MP. I have quite a lot of HP+ gear as well as MP+ and the extra HP not only helps you stay alive a bit longer but also gives you better results for Devotion, Martyr and Sublimation. Sublimation is particularly important because the more MP you can get out of that the better. These days Max MP as a WHM isn't as important as it used to be because there are so many ways of recovering your MP quickly.

Also it's fun having 1000+ HP as a taru mage.

I merited HP as my primary, as a Tarutaru. Primarily to balance out my HP/MP totals on RDM, but the the extra 70HP I get from it can mean the difference between dying and not dying from time to time on WHM.

I wouldn't really recommend +HP for non-tank non-Tarutarus though.


Icemage

[Saren]

I was reading the research Callisto posted again this morning because he’s recently done a little update to the numbers and got a bit involved with the maths.

All credit for the research (which can be found here) to Kuuhalee.


Sum up from Kuuhalee s post

There appears to be a cap at 50% on (Cure) Cast Time Reduction.

Cure III through Cure V cast times work on a tier system. The first tier is 17% Cast Time Reduction and the second tier is at 35% Cast Time Reduction.

Curaga I appears to have a single tier somewhere between 48-50% Cast Time Reduction.

Cures

These are a quick sum up of his original test numbers for those who are interested. There appears to be almost no variation within the tiers so it’s really only worth adding cure cast time reduction for cures if you know you can hit the next tier.

Cure 3/4/5: with 10% and under cast time reduction ~ 2.5 seconds
with 20-30% cast time reduction ~ 2.1 seconds (1st tier)
with 35%-52% cast time reduction ~ 1.7 seconds (2nd tier)



Curagas


Unfortunately he didn’t put up all the 0-50% numbers for higher tier curagas so I’m not sure the pattern repeats but going to assume that it does because Kuuhalle has a good testing style and I think he would have mentioned a difference if there was one. From his numbers:


Cast time reduction : cast time (sec) : reduction on base cast time

0% : 4.545 : 0%
10% : 4.190 : 7.8%
20% : 3.742 : 17.7%
30% : 3.290 : 27.6%
35% : 2.965 : 34.8%
37% : 2.861 : 37.1%
47% : 2.858 : 37.1%
52% : 2.530 : 44.3%



There is definitely a tier between 47% and 52% but the pre 37% results are very interesting too. If you look at the projected reduction % compared to the actual % reduction resulting: going from 0 to 10% cast time reduction translates to only a 7.8% actual reduction but going from 30-35% translates to an actual reduction of 7.2%.

This suggests that cure cast time down is increasingly helpful as you get closer 37% until you actually hit it when it acts as a sort of soft cap and more doesn't help you until you hit the tier at 48-50ish.

Assuming that higher curagas work the same way means the difference between 37% and 48-50% for all curagas (I – IV) is ~ 6% of the cast time or ~0.3 seconds. It varies a little because unlike cure 3-5 the curaga cast times increase a little as you go up the line of spells.


Conclusions (assuming higher tier curagas follow the curaga 1 pattern)


Cure clogs and a Loquatious earring are good purchases for all whms and Marduk's body (required to hit the curaga tier) starts to look more interesting

17% cure cast time reduction: (can me reached with just cure clogs and a Loquatious, no merits or /sch needed)
Tier 1 for cures – 0.4 seconds off your cast times, further reduction will have no effect until you hit the next tier.
~0.8 seconds off your curaga cast times, futher reduction will continue to help your curagas.

35-37% cure cast time reduction: (if not /sch, requires min of 4 (5 without marduk's) cure cast time merits, if /sch requires min of 1 (2 without marduk's) cure cast time merit)
35% is Tier 2 for cures – 0.8 second cast time reduction, further reduction will have no effect.
37% Soft cap for curagas - ~1.7 seconds off your curaga cast times, further reduction will have no effect until you hit the tier

48-50% cure cast time reduction: (only accessible with /sch, max cure cast time merits and Marduk's):
No improvement for cures
Tier for curaga - ~2 seconds off your curaga cast times


Getting to 35-37% definitely seems to be the magic range here.

If you are whm/blm or whm/smn generally then max cure cast time merits are still very attractive, they are the only way you can hit 35% without a Marduks.

If you are whm/sch generally then you seem to have 2 choices:

1. Go for max cure cast time so you can hit the curaga tier when /sch and keep your tier 2 cures when you have to go /blm or /smn etc.

2. Just get two cure cast time merits to get you up to 35% reduction (with light arts, cure clogs and Loquatious) which is the tier 2 on cures and close to the soft cap on curagas (you lose ~0.1 second), miss out on the curaga tier and lose your tier 2 cures when going /blm or /smn etc but frees up 3 merits for regen.


I’m not decided yet to be honest. I tend to have /sch welded on to my whm 99% of the time which definitely makes dropping to 2 cure cast time merits a temptation. I think I could live without a ~0.3 second improvement in my curaga cast times and 3 regen merits is pretty nice for quite a few things. That being said dropping cure cast time merits does make it impossible to reach 37% without /sch which is a fairly big downside if you are soloing or have to go /blm or /smn for some reason.