[Lmnop]

Originally Posted by Truece

/DNC is a great sub for the tanking WAR.

Originally Posted by Lmnop

/dnc has almost no hate tools (actually, Drain Samba has a decent amount of hate attached to it but that's once/fight at best) at the levels you're looking at.

Preaching to the choir, buddy. I'm trying to make war/dnc work @75, still. But 'til 30, it's not a good tanking sub. Someone else could add the Samba and you could get a whole other SJ fit in.

Originally Posted by Armando

EDIT: Regarding /DNC

With 0 proof, I still think a war/dnc would tank better than a PLD levels 30 onward unless the PLD has refresh (so basically, 30-41). Outside that, War/dnc still has an interesting debuffing perspective.

[Tomato_Kai]

To me, this is a fascinating discussion. I do have a question for you Armando. You've seemed to do a swell job of convincing me of /blu here, and so I know I can be eating meat like this. With this being the case... what meat should I use? I'm fond of just using jerky, but I have no problem with spending a bit more if the situation requires.


Another thing: What about DD subs? /DRG seems like the best choice in that regard, though I'm probably not the best to ask.

[Armando]

@Truece: I know that it's not very fair to compare them side by side since generally a WAR only tanks when the two better tanks aren't available. Even so, the way I see it a WAR/BLU should be able to survive with similar amounts of healing and output far more damage.

Then again, I would like to point out to both you and Lmnop that I'm essentially speculating out of my ass and may be totally wrong. If anyone can/wants to prove me wrong and show that /DNC is better than I'm giving it credit for, then even better. I mean, if I'm wrong all that means is that WAR has yet another viable/useful sub.

What would also be interesting would be WAR/DNC backup healing in a Refreshless party that has a proper tank, to aid MP conservation. Like in a PLD + WHM setup.

EDIT for Tomato Kai: The main difference between meats is that lower level ones give slightly higher %'s but have lower caps. Other than that, they're essentially the same thing: they all give ~20-27% attack bonuses and +2-5 STR. Just use the cheapest thing that'll still give you full benefits. At lower levels that'd be Meat Jerky. Around 25-30 (check your Attack constantly to see when Meat Jerky will cap out for you) you could probably upgrade to Meat Mithkabobs or Dhalmel Stew or something. I haven't really checked which are the most economical foods recently.

For DD'ing the general purpose sub would be /NIN. It lets you constantly overstep the tank's hate line without actually taking damage (which in turn saves the tank from getting hit...) /DRG is good 20-30 but kinda loses its appeal after that. /THF can work fine post-30 with SA Shield Break like I said. But in all honesty the safest and most balanced bet is generally /NIN, as much as many people may hate the fact. It'll keep you safe, you can still DD, and you can even tank in a pinch.

[Tomato_Kai]

I don't understand though: The entire point of subbing something is to garner extra hate. I can't fathom how I'd be doing more damage as a /nin vs. any other sub that gave offensive capability. Yes, I know I'd be better protected vs. hate... but what exactly does that protection afford? Shouldn't I be busting my cooldowns and such anyhow?

[Armando]

To give you an oversimplification:

Let's say the tank has generated enough hate that you can do 300 more damage before taking hate. (Like I said, this is a simplification since hate values are shifting all the time...) /NIN lets you do 350 damage and avoid 6 hits before the mob can touch you; the tank will likely have hate back by then. A stronger sub may let you do 400 or even 500 more damage but you'll take hate and take damage. /NIN lets you constantly step over that hate threshold without seeing consequences, whereas if you do that with another sub constantly you become an MP sponge.

A "stronger" sub is only better when you have a leet PLD tank that knows what he's doing and can manage his hate in such a way that he'll always save your ass with Flash/Cover/Shield Bash/uber Sentinel hate spikes whenever you cross the hate line. Sadly that often won't be the case for general pickup parties (though if you were in a static party, with such a tank, it'd be a completely different story.)

[Tomato_Kai]

Ok, I understand that concept... but let's say we're in the situation you're describing. Unless I'm intentionally tanking... shouldn't I be pulling less hate as a war/nin, simply because I don't have the hate *or* damage tools other subs have?

I understand that I'm protected against damage... but, all things being equal - how am I going to be gaining hate anyhow in a situation like that?

Here's what I mean: I have my war/nin, and there's a moderately intelligent war/mnk tanking. He's pulling with a xbow, voking at the start of each fight, voking whenever it's ready, and then boosting in between every chance he gets. Furthermore, he's using G.Axe, just like me, because this mythical party has good enough healing to field comfortable with the tank using a 2-Hander.

Me, I'm a war/nin. Now, in what rational situation would I be gaining more hate than him? Even if he just goes on a horrible missing streak... that still wouldn't break the hate gain he'd be pulling with just voke and boost alone. Nevermind the fact that he'd be getting counter procs, while I wouldn't, and he'd be WS'ing more frequently from the TP gained by being hit.

Simply put, I don't see war/nin being able to gain enough hate to justify it.

Of course, all of this *is* simply in the case of having a tank in the situation I described. If you've got a nin tank or something weak like that, then... well, good luck.

[Truece]

Originally Posted by Armando

@Truece: I know that it's not very fair to compare them side by side since generally a WAR only tanks when the two better tanks aren't available. Even so, the way I see it a WAR/BLU should be able to survive with similar amounts of healing and output far more damage.

Then again, I would like to point out to both you and Lmnop that I'm essentially speculating out of my ass and may be totally wrong. If anyone can/wants to prove me wrong and show that /DNC is better than I'm giving it credit for, then even better. I mean, if I'm wrong all that means is that WAR has yet another viable/useful sub.

I'll have to give /BLU a try in campaign soon. I like /DNC because all of the useful ja's which help to increase my exp reward, and TP is easier to come by than MP is. But, maybe as a rule: if no PLD or NIN lfp, but you've got a refresher, go WAR/BLU tank. If no PLD or NIN lfp and you don't have a refresher, go WAR/DNC.

Originally Posted by Armando

What would also be interesting would be WAR/DNC backup healing in a Refreshless party that has a proper tank, to aid MP conservation. Like in a PLD + WHM setup.

I have done the whole WAR/DNC as support. I joined the PT as a tank, and the PT was built with that in mind. Later, as people had to leave, someone got a PLD, and I switched to a support role. At the time we also had a DNC in the PT, so I couldn't offer anything debuff-wise that was better than the DNC could do. The waltzes from the DNC and myself definitely helped with MP conservation, however, as the WHM could rest for a few extra tics at the start of each fight.

[Armando]

Tomato Kai: You have to consider that the /MNK will generally have to tank with Defense food and without Berserk. You, on the other hand, can and should have Berserk up as much as possible and will be eating meat. That already puts a huge damage difference between the two of you. You can also maximize your DD equipment, the tank has to make sure he's wearing stuff with decent defense. The tank is also losing hate constantly from getting hit.

As a general rule, tanks don't hold hate; DDs control their damage output to not overstep the tank's hate threshold. In other words, every DD has the potential to rip hate off of the tank.

Edit: Even if the tank could hold hate perfectly, being able to Provoke it off of him and save him from 6 hits both saves the WHM plenty of MP and also gives him/her more time to rest for MP. Consider that the only other DD sub until 50 is /THF. You ought to be using Shield Break in both cases (even if by some miracle you're partying with another smart Great Axe WAR, then he can use Armor Break and you Shield Break or vice-versa.) The main difference in damage will be the crit on Shield Break on /THF and recasting Utsusemi once or twice per fight on /NIN.

@Truece: Good to hear that it works for a support role. Very interesting.

[Lmnop]

I haven't said anything about /blu, so I'll go ahead and say: ya, I'm with Armando. I think that's the sub you should be using. I assume you've been around long enough to have OPs to all those basic exping zones. Through the dunes, I might even suggest running around /mnk or something but OPing back to your home nation and changing sub to blu...

Just a Cocoon whenever it wears off (not even worth trying to use for hate) and Pollen if it'll save your life.

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In my times that I've taken war/dnc to Sky, I've yet to get to tank with it. I've been helping with healing/debuffing (I also kept Uli gravity'd almost the entire fight while we kited him!). On some of the pop NMs that aren't so horrifying (Faust) but still occasionally throw out one form of AoE or another, I've found it helpful in upkeeping the melee party (Drain samba 2 is great. And I posted in another thread that I thought this was getting resisted often but i've since found that it almost never does).

I also haven't got to play with it much on mobs with mp. I think with a PLD tank who's holding hate dead solid, even Aspir Samba could be useful (Moreso if you're using it to power a Rune Chopper :O).


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Rice Dumplings are also worth looking into. Don't give a terribly high amount of attack, but acc+5 is always decent.

[Saren]

Tomato_Kai thanks for this thread, it lets me ask my newbie DD questions too without being as conspicuous

Thankyou for giving me an idea of how valuable damage is for enmity generation Armando

Food wise, Navarin seems really good for the money (assuming you aren't dying constantly)? I liked the +str and +ranged attack on it and it's not really expensive. I was planning on taking a crossbow and Blind/Acid bolts with me to the dunes when I go. Not that I will be using them often, just enough to keep the effect on but every little helps right?

[IfritnoItazura]

I wouldn't use Navarin, a three hour food, in a pickup group; at the levels it's effective, we're talking about Valkrum Dunes and Qufim Island parties which can break up any second.

Acid Bolt should useful with some range accuracy equipment at low levels, if you have the skill capped. You'd probably still miss 3 out of 5 shots, but the RNGs would be missing 2 out of 5 shots anyway, so you won't look too horrible.

As for WAR/DNC, here's an example of a working WS spam party in Lv.72-74 range:

PLD, WAR/DNC, DRG/BLU, BRD/NIN, DD, DD.

No Ballad; PLD made do with Auto Refresh and Sanction Refresh, with WAR and DRG shouldering most of the healing load. (Don't quite remember if I was PLD/NIN or PLD/WAR, though; probably PLD/NIN.)

[Celeal]

I just want to add WAR/SAM a valid option from level 60+. This combo gives enough TP for using both Shield/Armor/Weapon/Full Break + Raging Rush in exp. parties.

[Tomato_Kai]

So, it seems to me like /Blu and /nin are going to be my leveling choices. Interesting. I can't wait to try them out. I also can't wait to get my internet back ><;

I hate moving. It makes home go away from internet

[Kurb]

Originally Posted by Truece

The point isn't to compare PLD to WAR tanks, it's to discuss advanced subjobs for WAR. I'll be the first to say that PLD tanks better than WAR, but using all of the tools available, WAR/DNC is a capable tank which should allow a PT to function until a 'better' tank is available.

true

[Kittyneko]

Honestly, I would just stick with /nin or perhaps /thf at some levels, but I'm saying that just out of my experience with every party with a Warrior I've been in, in the past decade, including my own, and without reading everything in this thread.