War/dnc -- 'cuz our AF is almost as bad

[Lmnop]

It's probably too early for the thread but I thought I'd share, anyway. This post is designed only to cover the soloing capacity of war/dnc (previously, the only jobs worse @soloing than us have been COR and maybe RNG, to my knowledge). Of course, I want comments and speculation added about war/dnc in other roles, but don't come in here and tell me it's a worthless sub w/out taking into account the capacity it may possess for solo. Anyway...

I got DNC 37 last night and gave it a spin. I didn't take any screenshots, and I'm at work so don't expect anything impressive yet. Even so... here's my tale.

OP'd to Cape Terrigan as WAR75/DNC 37. Brought a good deal of my WAR gear, my 2 CHR rings, and my bird whistle. Didn't do a whole lot in the way of macros, though.

EP went down fast, too easy. Started taking on DC gobs and raptors.

Most fights, ended with roughly 1100/1400 HP and over 250% tp. This means I'm not actually being efficient enough. I was getting enough tp that I was frequently hitting 300% and becoming desperate just to use it faster than I could earn it. Ideally, one would hover around 100-150%, top off their sub's needs (make sure Samba won't wear off soon, Cure yourself close to full, throw down a Step), then immediately WS before you go into danger of actually needing the TP. This seems rather obvious, I guess. I'll get better with practice... but I'd rather try harder mobs. I do believe I'm capable of taking EMs and low Ts, but only time will tell.

At one point, when a DC gob was around 25% HP, I got a DC raptor link just after having recently WS'd. Then Samba wore off. I still managed to live! I got down to the orange HP, for sure, but I kept with it, killed my gob, moved onto the Raptor, still ended with plenty of tp and white HP.

Ok, some numbers:

Drain Samba 2 costs 20 tp, lasts 90 seconds (I think). drain effect caps @40 hp cured for a 504 Greataxe. I only saw one 40, though there were likely more that I missed. I paid attention to the 1st 20 swings and then paid no mind. My typical amounts drained were 26-36. I never saw a single hit drop under 26. So, a free Cure I every 8.4 seconds. Good deal. Combined with Signet buffs to keep the damage rate manageable... you end up floating on just fine for quite a long time with minimal upkeep.

Steps are nifty, but not really needed for these mobs. I was typically doing a single Quickstep, then stuck with Box Steps whenever I felt like it (if I'm to understand correctly, landing the 1st level of a Step is always the most efficient level. i.e. -10 evasion, -4 for each additional step or whatever).

Curing Waltz 2 costs 35 tp and heals my hot Elvaan bod for 204 HP, currently. I don't know what my stats are, but this is only +9 CHR and something like +12 VIT. Definitely a lot of room for gear improvement (I'm looking at you, Koenig). This shares a timer with Healing Waltz, 20 tp for an Erase effect. Yes, it got rid of Raptor's Disease thing as well as their seldom-used Slow effect.

Some TP gain rate figures: this is an approximation over a period of time, and certain mathematic minded individuals will likely hate me for trying to oversimplify, but here's what I see:

8.4 second delay, 13.7 tp/swing. 7.14 swings/minute, 95% accuracy. 13.7*7.14*.95= something close to 93 tp/minute. Just under 280 tp every 3 minutes, not including the substantial tp you'll be gaining from getting hit. In that time, you'll use 2 Sambas for 40 tp.

You'd need something like 630 tp to use CW 2 every time the timer is up so... don't fight anything that requires you to do that. But curing yourself once every 30 seconds (I was closer to once/90 seconds) would be 210 tp needed. That leaves you some tp to play with steps, but not enough to WS. Of course, if you're just fighting DCs and only curing yourself once every minute or so like i was, I'd suggest speeding up the fight with a Raging Rush...

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I plan on doing some duo'ing with my friend's DRG/mage. I'll tell you how that works out. I believe war/dnc could be quite effective at well... most non-zerg, non-merit situations. I think for meripo, it could feasibly function... but we have our parties down to a science. In what (ideal) situation would you want a war/support more than a pure damage dealer?

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Btw, I really like the "Here are some similar threads we have found" feature. That's nice.

[Sabaron]

I have a friend who levelled /DNC for his MNK. It is an excellent soloing choice for DD melees that don't have healing--very good for farming higher-end monsters with far less downtime and death risk and generally a better choice than WHM due to lack of Refresh and low MP pool.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

soloing than us have been COR and maybe RNG, to my knowledge

RNG is fairly soloable with the right setup, more specifically of the crossbow variety making use of acid, holy, sleep and raw damage bolts. That's also part of the reason THF can solo so well, evasion bonus traits aside. COR is up for debate still, but not as bad off as it used to be.

Keep in mind that soloing isn't just something based on job or subjob alone, it also has much to do with the player's solo experience and mastery of thier gear and abilities. /DNC has just made it a little easier to solo than before, but not everyone makes great use of it from what I've seen.

[Lmnop]

RNG is fairly soloable with the right setup, more specifically of the crossbow variety making use of acid, holy, sleep and raw damage bolts. That's also part of the reason THF can solo so well, evasion bonus traits aside. COR is up for debate still, but not as bad off as it used to be.

I was thinking about the the line of debuff bolts, specifically. I've made use of them as war- and thf- /nin. Though they're not entirely ideal (wallet damage aside) -- I found I was shooting so much that it was having a definite impact on my ability to kill the mob. When it gets to the point where all my damage is via bolts, I really am soloing like a RNG. May as well just sit back and machine gun Sleep bolts 'til it's dead, ffs.

Keep in mind that soloing isn't just something based on job or subjob alone, it also has much to do with the player's solo experience and mastery of thier gear and abilities. /DNC has just made it a little easier to solo than before, but not everyone makes great use of it from what I've seen.

I realize (hope) that this comment is geared towards any reader who's just looking at solo capacity of X job, but I want to note that there are simply hard limits on what a job can do...

Maybe I'm a terrible Warrior, but I think that if I haven't been able to solo a DC since level 40 (War/Sam, War/Thf, War/Nin, War/mnk -- never messed with War/Whm or War/Pld), most Warriors would be in roughly the same boat. I do recall seeing screen shots of a Ridill/Adaberk War soloing EM-low T stuff in Sea, but I'm also under the impression that the mob choice is critical, there...

As for DNC, it's rather obvious that an understanding of your job combo and how your gear can affect it is definitely required. Cures are basically Caster's CHR/2 + recipient's VIT/2 + some other number I don't remember. So it's very easy to see results from equip swaps.

Unfortunately, it looks like most jobs can find a method of integrating /dnc in one regard or another. Maybe not the best, but even SMN/DNC has a) the 2 handed changes going for it b) Acc and eva bonus traits c) an erase move d) free mp, mob target pending.

Like you, I don't want to see this become the new /nin. But let's face it... if you're in a level 75 Trio, what good does a drk/war do the group? There's a reason the standard DDs are never included in those awesome "low man" NM groups you hear about (4 manning Ash Dragon for instance. You can bet your ass none of those 4 are WARs, let alone DRG). If some subjob could breathe more life into the usefulness of the dime-a-dozen DDs, wouldn't you take it? And a sub that isn't considered "gimping yourself" while we're at it?

I won't lie, I'd like to eventually look towards war/dnc as a dedicated PLD-esque tank. But it's far too soon to apply that.

AF Body ftw.

[Celeal]

Would Axe + Shield safer? Like Keonig Shield (VIT+5, CHR+5) or Acheron Shield (Shield skill +10) with WAR AF gloves (Shield skill +10)

Add a Warwolf Belf (another VIT+5 among STR+5, DEX+5), Bibikki (sp?) Shell (VIT+4 ammo), the rest just fit in whatever WAR's favorite.

Look very good for solo....

And looks very good for tanking too...

[Lmnop]

I imagine a Koenig shield would be pretty awesome for the combo. I was using Warwolf belt and I had actually forgotten about Bibiki Seashell (after reading this post, I hurried up and did the quest -- picking up my reward tonight). So thanks for the reminder. :D

If you do stick with GA though, it's not much but Gawain's Axe has VIT+5 on it -- while the AGI-2 means very little (something in the way of .5% damage reduction), the +VIT is 2 hp/cure. Over the course of a large period of time... but then one must consider DPS lost... anyway, worth considering.

Still hoping to try this out in a non-solo scenario...

[Kyrial Arthian]

/DNC is awesome for WAR soloing. DC and EM Steelshells always kicked my ass if I tried to solo them /NIN or /SAM, but I can solo them easily as can be with /DNC. I employ a bit of a different strategy than you, though... I never WS. I mainly only solo for skillups, so just meleeing a single mob and taking forever to kill is fine for me. I just keep the TP ready at all times so that I never hafta worry about even coming close to dying, even should something go wrong. I probably could WS, but sometimes ends in needing to cure myself and not having enough TP built up yet. I only really recommend it in Signet and Sigil areas, though; you get a signifigant defense/evasion bonus vs. EM or lower mobs with Signet/Sigil, and it helps immensely (if my Signet/Sigil wears in the middle of a fight, I tend to go from "this is so easy I'm falling asleep" to "holy crap it's kicking my ass"). This setup is also great for Campaign, since blood tanking and curing yourself gets you a ton of points, and you can basically solo most non-NM mobs (BLMs still have the potential to screw you up, and BRD mobs can be annoying since Healing Waltz doesn't erase songs). My gear setup at the moment is usually:

Perdu Voulge
Pole Strap
Velocity Bow
Bloody Bolts (Bibiki Seashell if I run out of ammo or if I'm fighting something I won't be able to land bolts on very often)
Walahra Turban (will probably replace with Genbu's Kabuto if my sky shell ever friggin' pops Genbu when I'm around for a change)
Chivalrous Chain
Spike Earring (or Dodge Earring)
Brutal Earring
Hauberk (or Scorpion Harness; I'm working on upgrading my Fighter's Lorica to +1 specifically for when I sub DNC)
Dusk Gloves
Ulthalam's Ring
Rajas Ring
Amemet Mantle +1 (or Nomad's Mantle)
Warwolf Belt
Royal Knight's Breeches (will replace with Byakko's Haidate when I finally get it >.>)
Amir Boots

I've also considered upgrading my AF boots and legs to +1, but I just don't feel like doing the Limbus required for that (as it is, it has been taking forever to get the items needed for the body; so far only have the Temenos one). Kirin's Osode would actually be the ideal body piece if you can get it: VIT/CHR +10 for cures, and STR+10 DEX+10 for your meleeing, and AGI+10 for your evasion/parrying/shield.

And really, remember how everyone was bugging SE to add a new tank job? Honestly, /DNC can allow WAR to fill that role. Sure, WAR already could tank, but DNC makes the ideal sub for a WAR tank. Rather than trying to blink tank and getting our asses kicked, /DNC allows us to still deal good damage, while also throwing out cures here and there for extra hate. And we already have Provoke and Warcry natively for enmity, and Defender for damage mitigation. WAR has a huge selection of tanking gear already; we've just ignored it because we did better DDing and leaving the tanking to the PLDs and NINs. WAR AF+1 in particular makes some awesome tanking gear, with large boosts to enmity (+8 on the body alone!), and respectable boosts to DEF and VIT.

[Nataka]

And really, remember how everyone was bugging SE to add a new tank job? Honestly, /DNC can allow WAR to fill that role. Sure, WAR already could tank, but DNC makes the ideal sub for a WAR tank. Rather than trying to blink tank and getting our asses kicked, /DNC allows us to still deal good damage, while also throwing out cures here and there for extra hate. And we already have Provoke and Warcry natively for enmity, and Defender for damage mitigation. WAR has a huge selection of tanking gear already; we've just ignored it because we did better DDing and leaving the tanking to the PLDs and NINs. WAR AF+1 in particular makes some awesome tanking gear, with large boosts to enmity (+8 on the body alone!), and respectable boosts to DEF and VIT.

I actually tried the combo once at level 30-31. It's pretty interesting and the enmity is surprisingly high.

@40 you also get dancer's provoke, dont you? How powerful is it, in the realm of flash?

[MrMageo]

animated flourish = a flash pretty much
a war/dnc can be a ghetto PLD tank
???/dnc ftw

[Lmnop]

Just how "Ghetto" it is has yet to be seen. Enfeebling the mob while doing terrific damage and doing a decent job of damage mitigation... I think it has a lot of potential, but mainly in the 40-55 realm.

I've been skilling up Shield. I find it fun that I can let a second DC mob beat on me while I fight a 1st for quite some time before starting to worry.

I also took the combo to Campaign finally and found I was overtanking some PLDs there (none of us were really provoking, though).

For gear, I'm trying to get ahold of Koenig (we don't have many PLDs, so no one cares about the martial abjs in Sky. Also, the cursed for this set is quite cheap (60k or so vs the 300k for any heca or adaman) and much easier to get than any AF+1.

Each piece of Koenig = +10 HP on your self cures. You'd be a fool to leave it on full time for anything short of hard-hitting NM, but it's glorious for equip swapping.

Osode, like Kyrial mentioned, is quite nice all around. Plus, it's easier to get ahold of than M. body abj.

[MrMageo]

i diddnt mean ghetto in an offensive term, quassi may have beenn better i suppose. But i got a buddy on garuda who tanks now as war/dnc and claims he has yet to lose hate by it. a provoke and a "flash" and mad damage is a pretty good combonation, i dont know how endgame would be for it but mid to high lvl tanking with it seems quite possible

exception would be colbri/imps but there are other places you can go.


personally i play as rdm/dnc and find i am more party supportive than /whm dont have to bad an issue hiting colbri about 70-75%
Having a sam @75 able to donate TP to the cause dosent hurt much either.

[Balfree]

I approve of WAR/DNC tanks on any parties.

Self healing. 2 types of provoke. Great damage depending on weapon choice. Probably the most innate defense after PLD, not sure...

Basically its like a Pseudo PLD, but with unlimited-ish curing ability.

[Arris]

tbh I think /DNC is a great sub for solo even in pt setup. I've seen MNK/DNC in a ton of pt setups now. Animated Flourish= watered down provoke. Even in the description it says "If successful" that's why I don't like the idea of main tanking on DNC unless you spam divine waltz and even with /SAM you still will have close to zero TP. I like the idea of of WAR/DNC seems like it'll be a permanent thing.

<73DNC/NIN>