[Manatra]

Original Story:
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6164718.html

I find this development quite interesting, to say the least, because this would indicate they are scrapping the White Engine. Afterall, why suddenly spend a lot of money on a new game engine when you already have one that supposedly works and does roughly the same thing.

While it could mean that SE is running into massive problems with the development of the White Engine, I actually think it could be something else. Given that SE has been moving in the direction of multi-platform titles, and the fact that Sony's PS3 is having a very slow start. Swapping in the Unreal 3 Engine for all of their next generation games would allow them to easily port them from the PS3 to the Xbox360, and vice versa.

I think the chances of Final Fantasy XIII being exclusive to the PS3 are a lot less now.

Edit: Yes I mispelled license, -.-

[Icemage]

Square-Enix won't switch development on FFXIII this far unless things are going catastrophically wrong behind the scenes, and I've heard nothing to suggest that this is the case. Switching to Unreal Engine 3 would require almost everything to be rebuilt from the ground up - not to mention it is, at its heart, a first person shooter game. Making it into a JRPG will take a hell of a lot of code (I should know, I'm looking right at UE3 to develop my own hobby project this year! ). Perhaps they're looking at it for future titles, but I don't see this affecting the Final Fantasy series much, if at all.


Icemage

[Manatra]

Originally Posted by Icemage

Square-Enix won't switch development on FFXIII this far unless things are going catastrophically wrong behind the scenes, and I've heard nothing to suggest that this is the case. Switching to Unreal Engine 3 would require almost everything to be rebuilt from the ground up - not to mention it is, at its heart, a first person shooter game. Making it into a JRPG will take a hell of a lot of code (I should know, I'm looking right at UE3 to develop my own hobby project this year! ). Perhaps they're looking at it for future titles, but I don't see this affecting the Final Fantasy series much, if at all.
Icemage

Yes and no, the art assets could be easily transferred, and they are the most time consuming aspects of development (with the development of a graphics engine coming in second). Also, Epic has built UE3 as a general purpose middleware engine, it is not focused around first-person shooters. Not to mention, when you say:

Originally Posted by Icemage

Making it into a JRPG will take a hell of a lot of code (I should know, I'm looking right at UE3 to develop my own hobby project this year! ).

You mean you would be modding the game UT2007. So not only are you modding a first person shooter, you do not have full access to the source code. Full access to the source code, for UE2 at least, requires around $300 000, plus licensing fees for each game you shipped the last time I checked.

In the end, it could easily be the case that FFXIII is going to use UE3. SE can assign the people currently working on the White Engine to port most of the code over to the already fully functional UE3, which, in that case would not take long to do. Plus, it would give Squaresoft the ability to easily port FFXIII and whatever next gen games they have to PC and Xbox360.

From a personal point of view I honestly see this as SE posturing themselves for the possible event that the PS3 doesn't sell that many systems. In North America at least, the PS3 is not going to be the runaway success that the PS2 was. It will sell well, but the Xbox360 will also probably sell well. That is a huge market left untapped and a company like SE is not one to leave markets untapped--especially with their recent focus on multi-platform titles.

[Icemage]

I know what I'm talking about when I say it would take a hell of a lot of code. Sure, source code access is required when doing something like you're suggesting, but the fact remains that you're starting from the Unreal Conversion Framework, which is the basic skeleton model of the engine code with the FPS elements removed. Everything else has to be built from the ground up.

While I will be working with Unreal Tournament III (formerly known as UT2K7 as of yesterday) and won't have source code access, my contacts in the game industry indicate to me that the lion's share of work that they do code-wise is in UnrealScript (99%), not C++. They distinctly prefer working in UnrealScript since it takes less time to develop and less time to debug; they only dig into the C++ when absolutely necessary due to certain tasks not being accomplishable in UnrealScript.

Regarding art assets, converting from one game engine to another almost always causes issues with existing models and textures, because many game engines render assets differently, and what looks good in one engine doesn't always work quite as well or as correctly in another. This goes double for animations, which are far more complex and almost always have to be tweaked for whatever engine is rendering them.

This isn't to say that Square-Enix won't switch horses mid-race, because they've got to plan for the future. However, high caliber games these days take a ton of time to develop if you want to give them any quality. Art assets aren't necessarily easily transferred, either. Unless Square-Enix doesn't want to finish Final Fantasy XIII for another two or three years, I don't think they'll be switching to UE3 for it.

I can totally see your scenario for Final Fantasy XIV though - with a fresh start, they have no reason not to switch engines since hardly anything carries over from one Final Fantasy game to the next aside from the occasional model.


Icemage

[Raydeus]

SE licensing UE3 doesn't mean they will drop White at all, sometimes it's easier to build some aspects of the game by using an hybrid engine instead.

In this case (whatever SE is gonna use the engine for) if UE is good enough so they can achieve what they want without creating an engine themselves and save time and money in the process then there's nothing wrong with it.

[Pai Pai Master]

Square Enix has already committed to using White Engine for all their PS3-powered next-gen games. So far that means Final Fantasy XIII and Final Fantasy Versus XIII, as it's unknown if they'll be building a separate, new engine for their PS3/Vista MMORPG. FFvXIII is easly early enough in the development phase to hypothetically switch to a different engine, but switching development of Final Fantasy XIII for a third time, this late in the game, would spell trouble for the game's design.

The most logical explanation for this is that they're using Unreal Engine 3 to develop a new, 360-based title. Games like Gears of War, Huxley and Lost Odyssey are already proving that UE3 is the best middleware choice for Xbox 360-based games.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

No third party exactly has an obligation to make games exclusively for Sony now. Development costs are too high, why else would SE make this move save to move to multi-platform development in order to save money? Just how sure are you FFXIII will remain exclusive? They could scrap the whole thing and start over or make another version in the Unreal Engine.

Just how many times was FFXII reworked and delayed and for how many years? Four? And there's nothing that says FFXIII or Versus has to be out in 2007 or 2008. It will come out when SE is ready to release it.

[Pai Pai Master]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

No third party exactly has an obligation to make games exclusively for Sony now. Development costs are too high, why else would SE make this move save to move to multi-platform development in order to save money? Just how sure are you FFXIII will remain exclusive? They could scrap the whole thing and start over or make another version in the Unreal Engine.

Just how many times was FFXII reworked and delayed and for how many years? Four? And there's nothing that says FFXIII or Versus has to be out in 2007 or 2008. It will come out when SE is ready to release it.

It would likely be destructive to the FFXIII project to scrap it and remake it on Unreal Engine 3 for 360 at this point, considering the project has already been canned once before for the sake of shooting for a different platform. In my opinion, that's a ridiculous thing to predict.

FFXII was reworked and delayed many times because of internal development team issues, not platform or actual development problems. The game could have been out much earlier had Matsuno not fallen ill, and the fact that FFXIII was in development for the PS2 proves that Square Enix had all intentions of having the game out much earlier than it was released. They're not Valve; they tend to stick to development schedules until the worst-case scenario presents itself.

No third party has any obligation to make games exclusively for anyone nowadays, yet many studios still do. As you pointed out, Square Enix isn't planning on releasing FFXIII or FFvXIII until 2008 or later. If you're bringing up platform exclusivity versus the cost of developing a title like FFXIII, consider how much more money it would cost to "make another version in the Unreal Engine." It would involve dropping years of development and pre-production as well as likely hiring an entirely new development team, as the current devteam has spent the last however-many months working with CELL-based architecture and the White Engine, and not 360-based development with UE3.

There's every chance of FFXIII or Versus XIII appearing on the 360, but if it happens it won't happen for some time after 2008. Both games are built with White Engine, a proprietary Square Enix engine made specifically for CELL-based games with the PS3 hardware. They very well could develop a 360-based port but it would take some time and money, and at this point it's impossible for it to happen before FFXIII is released on the PS3 next year, and even now it's unlikely that SE sees it's worth it, seeing as how already, the PS3 has surpassed the 360's install base by over 500,000 units in Japan and the gap will be much wider come 2008.

It's obviously the in-thing to predict all sorts of doom-and-gloom for the much-hated and much-loved PS3, but I can assure you that FFXIII is not being cancelled and remade for the 360 via Unreal Engine 3. I can say with absolute conviction that Square Enix has licensed Unreal Engine 3 for a separate, possibly FFXIII-related, 360-exclusive project. You can hold me to that and smash a defaced PS3 unit over my head if you'd like, if that doesn't happen.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Pai Pai Master

They very well could develop a 360-based port but it would take some time and money, and at this point it's impossible for it to happen before FFXIII is released on the PS3 next year, and even now it's unlikely that SE sees it's worth it, seeing as how already, the PS3 has surpassed the 360's install base by over 500,000 units in Japan and the gap will be much wider come 2008.

Wii has surpassed both install bases in Japan and the US, so I fail to see your point here. If install base is what makes you a winner, SE made a big mistake choosing PS3, at least by your logic in which they're "winning."

Addtionally, SE has reworked older games countless times for countless platforms:

Final Fantasy
Final Fantasy for Wonderswan.
Final Fantasy I&II for PSX (Origins)
Final Fantasy I&II for GBA (with new dungeons)
Final Fantasy Anniversery Edition for PSP (same new dungeons, remastered OST)

And that's not mentioning the cell phone versions or likely Super Famicom port/update versions. Want to get me started in Dragon Quest? Should I mention the total rewrites that took place for FFIV, FFV and FFVI? The CG added for these versions? Rewritten music? New art? Hell FFIII was rebuilt from the ground up in every department. This stuff costs money even if other assets can be reused.

Point is, its very possible for FFXIII to go elsewhere. Sony just rigs there systems to make ports more difficult by programming, but if you plan around that from the outset (as Konami appears to be doing), that's not an obstacle, either.

If SE shifts multiplatform on FF main series, expect people to flock to the system that is more affordable to play it on.

That's not PS3.

[Pai Pai Master]

Wii was not brought into the picture, and it's very, very possible for Final Fantasy to shift to the Wii in the future, as Square Enix is known for flocking to the console with the highest install base. However, Square Enix's current outlook doesn't lend itself well to predicting that Final Fantasy XIII could very well move to the Wii. If anything, I think we'll see Final Fantasy XIV as a PS3/360 title.

Wada also believes that many game industry watchers fail to understand this trend and hence argue the age of high quality games has already come to an end. For Square Enix however it was important to offer the consumers various choices: Casual games on Wii, DS, and PlayStation Portable, as well as highly enjoyable (high-end) offerings on PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360.

You could cite Dragon Quest IX as an example of how the platform specifically doesn't seem to matter at this point, but until Square Enix states otherwise, it's unlikely that they'll choose Wii as a standard platform for their hardcore, sprawling adventures like Final Fantasy. The Wii is certainly a huge success worldwide, and if FFXIII were a casual game appealing to a massive amount of gamers and non-gamers, the Wii would certainly be a better choice. Since it's not, it's obvious Square has to appeal the game to the gamer audience, and that can't be done on Wii as well as it could be done on PS3 or 360.

The examples you brought up are ports which don't exemplify the difference between The White Engine on PS3 and the Unreal Engine 3 on 360. Those are all quick and easy ports made for the sake of cashing in on earlier successes; none of them were ported in a matter of a year or so after the original release, all were meant simply to bring the title to a newer platform, most of which portable.

Yes, Square Enix has reworked a number of titles in the past, but consider those games and their production budgets/development teams, and the amount of work they've put into White Engine, and the amount they spent to license Unreal Engine 3. Also consider how much more work would require making a multi-platform Final Fantasy XIII on Wii/PS3/360, where two entirely new builds need to be developed under two other engines.

For the time being I think it's wishful thinking to hope Final Fantasy XIII wil land up on anything other than the PS3 right now. Unless the universe explodes and people start throwing their PS3s in the trash and no one buys one from now until 2008, it's likely we'll be playing FFXIII on PS3 and hopefully, no one will be complaining about ridiculous matters like platform exclusivity.

[Raydeus]

I dunno, maybe I have waaay too much faith in Sony, but I seriously think the PS3 will be the big winner in the so called "next generation console wars".

With the Wii being the 2nd.

Most people who bought the 360 did it because it was there, and because it wasn't too expensive, the 360 was the "I want it now" option for gamers who wanted a next gen console.

But considering the PS3 seems to be planned for an scenario where it will start not only gaining momentum, but also actually displacing the PS2 until 2 years from now, it really seems like it's a console planned for future years rather than the present.

That's when 1080p displays will be much cheaper and affordable, that's when the PS3 will have it's already CELL seasoned developers really taking advantage of the superior hardware, that's when Blu-ray movies will be aviable in higher volumes.

And from what I've read it seems many players are waiting for that moment to buy their PS3 (the ones who can afford the price tag, which isn't much for the machine you are getting to begin with), but regardless, except for some students who don't have the money to spend on the PS3 most PS2 fans seem to be pretty sure about getting a PS3 eventually.

Which doesn't seem to be the case with the 360, with the Wii as the 2nd choice that's cheap enough to be bought as a fun extra.

I may be completely wrong about this, but that's the impression the current state of things gives me.

Now, what does that have to do with White and UE3? That I don't know.

[Pai Pai Master]

I don't think I can really make a call on who will "win" this new generation (Nintendo's pretty much a given for the most units sold, but that doesn't really mean Microsoft and Sony "fail"), but I can be certain it's not going to be as far spread as people want to believe. Most bitter ex-Sony fans like to think that because of the price tag at this current time, all hope is lost for Sony and developers are going to shift all of their projects to 360 and, for some reason, Wii.

That's hardly the case. All this recent exclusivity stuff is certainly natural. A developer would have to be either extremely insane or extremely confident to release a PS3-exclusive game RIGHT NOW (unless they have the luxury of being a Sony second-party studio), but developers like Square Enix and Konami have shown no indication of going multiplatform with the titles they currently have in development because in 2008 when Metal Gear Solid 4 and Final Fantasy XIII see the light of day, the PS3 will be seeing a much larger install base.

What you said, Raydeus, really reminds me of what SE president Youichi Wada said about the PS3 itself.

Asked about Sony Computer Entertainment's heavily criticized next-generation console, Wada apparently has high hopes for the platform. He believes it is still early, and sees the Playstation 3 coming into full swing only in 2008. Meanwhile, Square Enix already has done its homework, "perfecting" the preparation for the development of PlayStation 3-based titles.

The Square Enix president also offers an interesting explanation for the PlayStation 3's comparatively slow market penetration thus far. To comprehend the system's greatness a full HD-compatible TV set was a necessity, according to Wada. As consumers purchase more 37" or 40" high-definition TV sets, more and more PlayStation 3s will fly off the shelves. According to Wada, this trend has already begun and will only accelerate this and next year.

I couldn't agree more.

In the end, I don't really understand why multiplatforms bother people so much. There will always be exclusives and those games will always have the advantage of being designed primarily for a specific console, but as long as I can play the game I'm satisfied, and I've got that covered now that I own a 360.

People give me strange looks for being a diehard Sony fan even now, but I can say with fervor that I'm posting from my PS3 right now and that I love the experience it's given me so far, despite the price. The price is the biggest barrier anyone sees with the platform and the problem will become nonexistent as it's eventually dropped and the platform sees more and more great titles released, which are definitely on their way.

[Manatra]

Originally Posted by Pai Pai Master

All this recent exclusivity stuff is certainly natural. A developer would have to be either extremely insane or extremely confident to release a PS3-exclusive game RIGHT NOW (unless they have the luxury of being a Sony second-party studio), but developers like Square Enix and Konami have shown no indication of going multiplatform with the titles they currently have in development because in 2008 when Metal Gear Solid 4 and Final Fantasy XIII see the light of day, the PS3 will be seeing a much larger install base.
What you said, Raydeus, really reminds me of what SE president Youichi Wada said about the PS3 itself.

Eh? Kojima's pretty much all but said that MGS4 will be on the Xbox360 sometime after the PS3 version lands. This is backed up by past history as well While I'm no fan of the Xbox360, it does seem to be reaching a point of critical mass in North America where it will be pretty hard for developers to ignore.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

That's hardly the case. All this recent exclusivity stuff is certainly natural. A developer would have to be either extremely insane or extremely confident to release a PS3-exclusive game RIGHT NOW (unless they have the luxury of being a Sony second-party studio), but developers like Square Enix and Konami have shown no indication of going multiplatform with the titles they currently have in development because in 2008 when Metal Gear Solid 4 and Final Fantasy XIII see the light of day, the PS3 will be seeing a much larger install base.

Unless some kind of miraculous price drop occurs sometime soon, I don't see the install base growing like it did with PS2. And I can say pretty confidantly that MS and Nintendo will be the first to drop price purely because they can afford to, Sony on the other hand will be too arrogant to do so. I'm calling it on this May at the next E3, as there will still be press confrences even if there is no big public show.

Nintendo bulids consoles in a cost-effective manner, so they make profits on their hardware from Day 1. MS has Xbox Live, which covers any losses on hardware they may incur, though it does take a bit to cover the damage, but MS is profiting on 360 now.

Sony always strives for a specialized archetecture with their console, making the cost of production expensive and since the hardware so specialized it will remain expensive for a long time. But Sony's still holding out hope we're all willing to work extra hours or take up a second job to buy a PS3 (one of Kutaragi's most insane statements).

[Manatra]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

But Sony's still holding out hope we're all willing to work extra hours or take up a second job to buy a PS3 (one of Kutaragi's most insane statements).

And that's the thing, while Sony does arguably make good products, right now they are completely disconnected from their consumer base. It's showing in the comments they make, and is being reflected in the slow sales of the PS3.