[Malacite]

And yet SE sees no problem with the current mentality of "Throw more SAM at it".

They took exception to RNG and BLM, but they leave the Japanese job alone, hmm... Now granted SAM requires much more support than the other two (abusing haste) but it's the same concept.

Hell I'd go so far as to say it's worse; Even back before the RNG nerf, you didn't see people TP burning mobs like Kirin in 2 minutes.

[Akashimo]

Thf, when geared and played right is a good dd for exps/meripos. Endgame, its more of a tool than anything else.

Exp, if healers hadn't gotten so lazy these days since birds became the norm, I'd most likely be subbing /war or if i had the earring /drg for meripos. Tasty DA and haste is tasty^^. More TP quickly more easily to work with seperating Sa and Ta for WSing or last second close dark/distortion/light.

Endgame. No th4, no go as thf :x Sub usually for anything that isn't hnms is /nin.

Dark Ixion, still toying around with my preferable subs. /War is fun, but pain to get tp for off DC mobs. /nin for stafety. /drk = dead thf if it decides to Kick you after a soul eater dancing edge but still good xD

Faffy, /sam is my personal favorite and can easily rival a sam in dps(or at least a blm said after out parsing the sam at 1 faf). Just gotta go with pizza for acc and atk there. Plus collaborator blms if you have any in your party if they're the kind prone to get hate after magic bursts.

Timmy, khim and cerb really there for th4.

Sandworm, /rng is fun while waiting for ppl to gather, assuming you hit with ranged atks and slug shots <'-'< but /nin onry. Inside mobs there for hate, sc and th4.

Behemoth/KB /war ftw, voke claim, all the goodies from /war to boost sa or ta damage. Toss in a few merits with triple attack, /war double attack, brutal, homam body, and its like a mini hundred fists with the right dagger ^^

Generally, thf boils down to th4 majority with SC with sams or other DDs, and hate control. With Dynamis as pullers at times, or tank in some limbus zones. So pretty much a tool unless you dedicate to gearing as a good dd for what ever you got to thf as.

[Mezlo]

Originally Posted by Armando

The way I see it, problem is you can always throw more SAMs at stuff (2-hander bonuses + innate pDIF and acc bonuses on their WS + Hagun + Overwhelm + 6 hit builds and Meditate + ability to make just about any SC = retarded) but THFs don't "stack" quite as nicely. You only need so many TAs over time on the tank. I think it only takes 2 THFs with max Feint to keep it on permanently, too.

Again... the question posed by the OP is, "Is thief a DD or just a tool," not "who's a better DD a thf or a sam," or "is thf the best DD option in the game?"

Thf is a DD, not just a tool imo.

[Zoltar]

It's a tool, sadly.

Ok, I'll give my reasoning why. THF to me has been more of an assisting role in helping other jobs do their job. ie: keep hate on tank, pull the mob, etc.

Besides Treasure Hunter, it's used by other's to assist party members on the whole and not entirely the party itself.

tool, but a useful one.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

I don't think it's a tool. When I see a SAM hit for 120 points of damage, my THF hit sometimes 4-6 times within that SAMS swing for 20-30 points each.

When I've see a SAM hit a WS for 500 pts of damage, my THF has hit for around 6 to 700.

I don't compete with how quick the SAM can pull off a succession of WS'es. But our damage over time and spike damage vs a SAM isn't terribly under shadowed.

People that haven't played with a full equipped, intelligently played THF don't realize that THF is a nice little powerhouse on certain occassions, and is a good regular DD'er other times.

And what do you kill from 53-70 most of the time anyway? Hm?

[Armando]

People that haven't played with a full equipped, intelligently played THF don't realize that THF is a nice little powerhouse on certain occassions, and is a good regular DD'er other times.

Problem is, which job are people going to take a liking to: the one that requires intelligence or the one that can do well even with minimal intelligence? Not that every SAM is retarded, but the bar for success is set much higher for a THF than it is for other jobs, especially 2-handers. It may be true that THF can compete, but do people give it a chance at endgame?

Also the OP said to leave EXP/merits out of this. THF does just fine there and it's not like people care if they have TH in their EXP party.

[Karinya]

At endgame, a lot of other jobs can be substituted for SAM (and vice versa), but if you don't have enough THFs, the whole LS suffers. That *is* because of its non-damage functions (i.e. pulling and TH), but those are the things that you want THFs for, not just generic DD.

On the other hand, as long as your THFs have good damage builds and the LS knows that, it doesn't work the other way around -- extra THFs are about as useful as extra SAMs. (Not all LSs *do* know that, but SE isn't responsible for player stupidity.)

It depends somewhat on the event though - endgame *zones* like Dynamis/Limbus/Einherjar need a puller, but one-mob fights (whether forced pop or claimbot) don't. I don't do nearly as much of the latter, which might bias my views some.

P.S. People may not care if they have TH in their exp party, but they care if they have a puller. You can rely on a THF having the equipment, available subjobs, and probably experience with pulling, which is a pretty big crapshoot if you invite a SAM.

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by Karinya

At endgame, a lot of other jobs can be substituted for SAM (and vice versa), but if you don't have enough THFs, the whole LS suffers. That *is* because of its non-damage functions (i.e. pulling and TH), but those are the things that you want THFs for, not just generic DD.

On the other hand, as long as your THFs have good damage builds and the LS knows that, it doesn't work the other way around -- extra THFs are about as useful as extra SAMs. (Not all LSs *do* know that, but SE isn't responsible for player stupidity.)

It depends somewhat on the event though - endgame *zones* like Dynamis/Limbus/Einherjar need a puller, but one-mob fights (whether forced pop or claimbot) don't. I don't do nearly as much of the latter, which might bias my views some.

P.S. People may not care if they have TH in their exp party, but they care if they have a puller. You can rely on a THF having the equipment, available subjobs, and probably experience with pulling, which is a pretty big crapshoot if you invite a SAM.

That's sort of the point we're talking about though. Thieves are valued for their non-damage abilities (Trick Attack, Feint, Perfect Dodge, Flee, Treasure Hunter), not their damage output - which "can" be good in specific instances, but often isn't anything better than you'd find in more common damage dealing jobs.


Icemage

[Malacite]

I do find it odd though, that compared to most jobs, THF undergoes a dramatic transformation when they get Mandau. Most jobs see maybe a 5~10% damage improvement and a few nifty buffs. Mandau on the other hand, makes an already excellent THF a monster.

Sadly when it comes to comparing them to other "standard" DD jobs, they just don't stack up as well. In the case of SAM though, I find SAM does have a rather unfair advantage in that it can put out big numbers without the aid of really expensive/rare gear. This is the side of THF I hate; THF is extremely gear dependent for it's performance.

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Malacite

In the case of SAM though, I find SAM does have a rather unfair advantage in that it can put out big numbers without the aid of really expensive/rare gear.

You mean other than that first 2.7M for the weapon? It's kind of a big hump to get over before you start collecting the rest of your gear.

But the thing is, with *any other weapon in the game*, they don't really outperform other DDs with comparable equip. The overpoweredness of SAM *is* the overpoweredness of Hagun, period. (Well, that and the way their 2hr interacts with Dusty Wings in Nyzul. But that's even more niche.)

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Karinya

You mean other than that first 2.7M for the weapon? It's kind of a big hump to get over before you start collecting the rest of your gear.

You don't need Hagun to put up huge epeen numbers, Onimaru or Rindomaru will do that just fine (shit, even Ushikirimaru).

While I'm at it, Soborro as well. Hint: It has nothing to do with Hagun and everything to do with Y/G/K being brokenly powerful WS

[Eauijhkuu]

After playing this job through Bastok Rank10, RotZ, CoP and ToAU completions? I have concluded both:
As a DD, I can output some pretty good damage even outside of merits (I personally think that if you're hitting for less than double digits in any given situation you're doing something incorrect). THF/NIN is an awesome combo for Evading hits as well as pushing out DoT (I know everyone can't afford to toss gil on Courel Subs and Rabbit Pies.... having your DoT spike +20-40 points is just fricken sexy), and I'm slightly confused at what other people would consider to be better for THF than /NIN. You do the community a huge justice when you're not an unreasonable bloodsink, supposedly.

And as for 'tool', well...of course you're going to be used mostly for Treasure Hunter. Players know how suckage drop rates can be, and any placebo that might justify their increased chances of getting drops means that you'll definitely won't be overlooked.

HNMs have always been situational. As a matter of fact, even the types of daggers I'd use as a THF would become of importance on particular HNMs or gods. /WAR, /COR, /MNK, /DRK, /RNG @ 75 for HNMs and the like.

But I would urge play the job as both, and plausibly more, when it is required:
Makeshift secondary tank (as it is needed) now that collaborator has been implemented.
Kiting baddies and the like usually gives some reason for your A+ evasion skill to shine, although NIN, RDM/NIN, PLD/NINm WHM/NIN are claimed more efficient at these kinds of things.
Pulling when needed, thought BRDs kinda wanna do that now which saves gil on bolts. (Alot of people will claim they are more efficient anyhow...and if it saves me a dime, well hey.)
Feint is definitely an awesome merit to have, and makes you quite a valuable addition to Zerg strategies.

But in all sincerity, it all boils down to what strategy your team or linkshell is looking for. Community has always considered other jobs to do what THF is aptly capable of, even during days of the EXP skillchain structure. And now that SAMs and other jobs can basically Self skillchain without having to wait for you to build your 30-60 second, and Paladins and Redmages are left to /NIN tanking HNMs, you'll be pushed down in priority when it comes to closing or opening any skillchains. This new structure causes for a different mentality to manifest itself, where THF isn't really needed for much of anything but Treasure Hunter.

However, If people basically think that you're valuable for your Treasure Hunter Knife and your Treasure Hunter Armlets, then play the tool. If you're looking to boost your damage output and exert yourself, then maybe you should consider a few things like using food, and grabbing gear that will help your DoT and overall damage. But there's never been any objection against playing both; as for myself and possibly others, it's been much more enjoyable in that method.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Well said. I think ultimately we can come to the conclusion that THF is really just both, a good damager dealer who performs specific job related functions, effectively becoming a damage-dealing tool in the general dynamic of game play.