[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Armando

I am no way justifying the ridiculous and heavy-handed nerf RNG got or how long it took them to start making it up to RNGs. But it's not quite the same. RNG was OP compared to everyone else because of lack of level correction penalties against them, and being able to swing an axe between shots. I think this was also pre-sushi too? Nobody could come close to a RNG's damage. They obsoleted any regular DD. The more RNGs your party had, the better off you were.

The level correction penalties affected all jobs, which hurt THF dramatically as well, as I recall SE had to tweak dagger DMG ratings before the close of CoP. But the level difference penalties and breaking the ranged formula entirely were two different things.

But the intention of the nerf was discourage the arrowburn practice at endgame and make RNGs gear more effectively. A large problem with RNGs were that they could stand there in full AF, use a weak bow and weak arrows and do massive damage with them. So yes, while the formula failed to address level difference penalties and that was part of the intent of the adjustments, SE took an extra step and broke the job completely in the other direction. Suddently food and gear values were not calculated into the ranged formula, Slugwinders became harder to land and you could now miss Eagle Eye Shot.

I was a 75 BRD back when the nerf happened. 50% of my EXP parties came from arrowburns. I didn't seek them out, but wouldn't turn one down either. I tried to give every PT a chance. But by and large this wasn't to appease other melees at the EXP level - that was just a fringe benefit - it was to bring balance into the endgame. Which only really consisted of Sky at the time since Sea was still so new and unknown.

But SE sent RNGs the wrong message at the EXP level when they destroyed that job and then it was suddenly OK for everyone to do what RNGs and BLMs had done previously. SE let this be reinforced by the fact that it went on and on and it was BLM and RNG largely left out of it.

Burn PTs now are no different than what RNGs were doing back then. Even though there were level difference penalties, we were hunting T and VT mobs. Hunting T and VT mob has always been the most effective party EXP per hour, but PTs in the Zilart/CoP era were so stuck on IT++ they didn't want to do it. They were still all about EXP per Kill back then. In that respect, RNGs and BLMs were ahead of the curve.

The fact that everyone does it fine now doesn't absolve the fact that SE essentally said "RNG and BLM burns are bad, mmkay? Play with others, too."

The instant the nerf came into effect it was all about WARx4. It did not start in ToA camps, it started with Weapons in Sky. WAR didn't suddently turn into a beast - it was because they were once RNGs and knew what to exploit better than anyone else did at the time.

SE broke one job and fixed nothing. ToA only made it more obvious, HNMs are still burned down by select jobs and people still make selective party formats.

[Armando]

But the level difference penalties and breaking the ranged formula entirely were two different things.

Say again? They were applied at the same time.

Originally Posted by July 19 2005

The damage and accuracy of a player’s ranged attack are now calculated based on the distance of the player from the monster. This determination varies from weapon to weapon, as does the ideal distance for maximum damage. In addition, the higher the monster’s level is with regard to the player, the less damage will be dealt with a ranged attack.

If RNG had level correction before the update (and the notes imply otherwise) then why were they the dominant job for HNMs, the mobs with the highest levels of all? Even if you were right, they could still swing their axes between shots for even MORE damage when they could already outdamage people just shooting.

One job being OP and thus leading to people trying to throw as many of them as possible at mobs =/= people figuring out that you can mow down low level mobs with a variety of melees.

The BLM changes addressed nuke spam against NMs/HNMs specifically so I don't really see the correlation with melee burn EXP.

[Lmnop]

1 DD job who's allowed to party with the BRD and occasionally a NIN was let in.

7 DD jobs who could burn in AU land (which, btw, is the biggest thing responsible for killing lolDRG sentiments).

And Kirin burns came around before the 2 handed adjustments. Here's some interesting food for thought: Kirin burns (and other HNMs being destroyed that quickly) were post-AU, but required none of the gear or job changes introduced since the release of Zilart. Monks and Wars wearing Sky gear. Oh sure, merits. But that's about 7% higher hit rate and some very slight additional damage above that. Not really anything in the face of what 3 SV'd Bards are providing.

I was super happy when the RNG nerf hit. I'm still super happy. I'm also glad they're swinging RNG back into favor. You know what it was like to be "the other DD", trying to build your own party, and consistently seeing every back line support class with "RNG burn only" search messages?

And this was in the 40-60 range.

------

[Malacite]

The problem I have with all this (other than SE telling RNG & BLM to go fuck themselves in lieu of letting everyone else burn) is the disparity between BLM & RNG vs Hasted Melee.


Oh sure, SE set the cap from 90 to 80, but that only really affected Apocalypse DRKs. Otherwise challenging fights (and EXP in the form of TP burns) have been degenerated into widespread Haste abuse. Who cares how much spike damage a BLM or RNG can get off in a single attack when SAM can get 80 Haste and practically spam Gekko back to back?

Rather than nerf haste though, I'd rather see they give RNG & BLM a bit of a power boost to even things out. A BLM can only pile on so much MAB, and is still limited by MP. A RNG can only pile on so much STR & Attack. But melee jobs (especially 2 handers) can quintuple their damage output via Haste, at no cost to them. No MP consumption, no ammo being burned. Where's the balance in that?

Making haste work for ranged attacks might be a good start, but it would have to be backed up by an addition of auto-attack for ranged attacks. Personally I'm in favor of further reducing the penalties for shooting higher level targets (though maybe not quite pre-nerf levels) and removing that stupid NM resist nonsense (or at least toning it down).

Finally, can you just un-nerf manaburns in Sea already? Mount Z is pretty much the only viable camp for BLM and most people are too greedy/stupid to want to party up and instead opt out to compete for puddings. Even then, the most you can reasonably expect is 15k/hour, compared to 30~35k for a good TP burn. So would you let us manaburn in sea for 40~50k again already? Oh yeah and let's not forget Astral Burns...

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Icemage

Actually SC started vanishing earlier than that to my recollection. Shortly before Chains of Promathia was released I started seing BRD RDM RNGx4 parties show up in the Celestial Nexus in Tu'Lia - one of the very few places that had enough high level enemies to support a fast killing party that had nearly unlimited spawns to work with.

It was a small isolated exception to the rule, but I'm pretty sure that was the first time I saw a party dynamic that threw tanking and hate control completely out the window in favor of absolute killing speed, and it was the precursor to the TP-burn parties we're all familiar with today.

I've heard of those, but it was one camp you had to be alone in, otherwise there weren't enough spawns. (This was also before the shortcuts to sky -- meaning it took a long-ass time to get up there, or to get a replacement up there if someone had to leave or DC'd -- and not everyone even had access.) That's not enough to change how everyone exps at high levels and trickle down to affect low-level party tactics by imitation. ToAU made *most* high level exp into meleeburns, and that's when people started playing like that in low and mid level parties too.

TP burning at 30 remains a dumb idea even today, but I think the reason people don't learn how to SC at 30 is that they don't SC at 75.

I agree, but I hold that Square-Enix could have opted instead to improve the potency of skillchains, improve many of the "throwaway" WS, and make it possible for any two weapons to chain together with "something" that could at least be marginally useful. They chose not to, and quite deliberately moved away from the whole skillchain dynamic into this free-for-all style of party play, and the fallout from that decision lies entirely on their shoulders - with Thief, Black Mage, White Mage, and Paladin being the primary jobs negatively impacted.

I'm not so sure it was deliberate. I think they wanted to add more exp camps that had more mobs in them so that they could support more parties without overcrowding (at the time, overcrowding in high level exp camps was a big problem), and didn't really expect that players would react to the higher supply of mobs by staying at that camp at a higher player level.

Also, I have a hard time believing they would have deliberately unbalanced imps and colibri. I think they really expected the unique abilities of those mobs to drive players away, not for us to see them as fluffy bags of free exp. The effect of colibri on BLMs *in parties that were actually hunting colibri* was easy to foresee, but the fact that colibri PTs would make other PTs so much scarcer was not (it even took the playerbase a while to shift over completely).

It's often forgotten now, but in fact, in ToAU SE *did* increase the potency of SC+MB, by introducing qutrubs. You could do a hell of a lot of damage to qutrubs with something like tank SAM SAM BLM RDM BRD -- it's just that nobody cares because massacring T-VT is more profitable. To me, that says that the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing and that the whole infinite chain and imp/colibri monster was created by accident.

Now they're just afraid of the player protests if they fixed it. I think they should grow a pair and fix it anyway, people would whine for a while and then get over it, and the game will be better for it in the long term, but then, my paycheck doesn't depend on the subscriber numbers so I really have nothing to lose if I'm wrong about how many people would actually quit. I think the main thing SE could do to run this game better is to not be so afraid to nerf things that need nerfing -- multihit weapons, subbed Utsusemi, 75s hunting low level mobs, imps and colibri (well, actually, the *mobs* need to be buffed, in order to nerf parties hunting them.) The first two of those issues have been around since RoZ and SE is afraid to nerf them adequately, so I don't really hold out much hope for restoring balance to the others either.

---------- Post added at 08:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 AM ----------

Darn, I forgot to mention haste as one of the things that needs to be nerfed and probably won't be. Letting all DDs quintuple their damage output (although it's not really for free, it depends on buffs from other jobs) would not be a good way to balance Haste.

[Armando]

Haste is like Utsusemi - they should've realized it was too powerful when it was created, and it's too late now to fix it without causing an uproar. In particular, they should've seen that letting magical haste go up to over 40% without capping is FUCKING STUPID even if it can only be done with 2-hour abilities. The other mistake was letting all Haste stack additively instead of multiplicatively. Any Haste total exceeding 50% is ludicrous; doubling your DPS is already a big deal. If the three Haste sources (equipment, magic, JA) stacked multiplicatively, it would take more Haste to reach the same totals (20% equip, 20% magic, 20% JA Haste works out to 48.8%, not 60%.)

[Madjo]

This discussion is 5,672 miles over my head.

[cidbahamut]

Originally Posted by Madjo

This discussion is 5,672 miles over my head.

/comfort

Just keep reading and playing, understanding comes in time.

[Madjo]

At my pace, it's gonna take a LOT of time.

I don't think I'd want to take a job too far past level 30. The game starts to get a little bit hardcore for my taste. I'd like to do advanced job quests and keeping playing in the 1-30 range with new jobs. Taking a job to level 30, at my pace, will take 3-5 months I think. So I'll have plenty to do.

I'm slipping off topic. I'll stop rambling. THF's aren't tools! Yeah!

[Evion]

DD or Tool? is an interesting question. Your definition of tool in this scenario is no different than DD. Its a required aspect of a particular party setup. WHMs are the healing tool. BLM are the nuking tool. RDM are the refresh/haste/kiting tool. DDs are the DoT tool. If you would like to be a more effecient party/party setup, keep your THF pulling and SATAing. If the discussion was more which /job is better for the role of a THF, I'd vote /NIN for the pulling. (Or, perhaps, my favorite /SAM for 3rd Eye/Seigan/Meditate/TP Bonus/Hasso. Think of the possibilities.)

[Takelli]

Originally Posted by Evion

(Or, perhaps, my favorite /SAM for 3rd Eye/Seigan/Meditate/TP Bonus/Hasso.

Only 2 handers get the benifit of HAsso and Seigan. Thf/Sam would only benifit from the Meditate, Tp bonus and a single Third eye. Even with the Tp bonus, its just a Slight increase to the tp gained as its subbed, and you will need to stack store Tp gear as much as possible for it to be worth it.

I say thf/War is the better option. Gives Berserk for increases SATA dmg, and if you need to pull hate off the tank, you get Provoke, Accolmplise (SP), and defender along with the eva bonus, and stacking eva gear thf can be a viable tank with out taking too much dmg until the tank is back up and running.

[Solymir]

I had hoped to stay away from the merit party angle of this discussion. As I leveled I never had a problem getting invites on Thief, most people on Fenrir seem to understand it brings in enough Damage and adds to hate control. I have never looked for party on Thief at 75 so I have no idea what it's like. With a level 75 War that I love to play, that is usually my preferred choice to look for party on.

I mainly wanted to hear what people thought about /War vs /Nin. Possibly get some personal experience or someone that does numbers better than me stating what they know to be true. >.> Armando

[Armando]

Even with the Tp bonus, its just a Slight increase to the tp gained as its subbed, and you will need to stack store Tp gear as much as possible for it to be worth it.

Not really. It's just that it doesn't compensate for the lack of either Attack Bonus+Berserk+Double Attack or Dual Wield II(+Suppa)

[Ziero]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

RNG and BLM burning - Bad
Everyone Burning - Good

This is what SE faced and it was largely due to easy access to these mobs from staging points that lead to it. That was a design flaw because technically the deeper in you get to the core of enemy territory, the more fearsome the mobs should be, but apparently the Mamool Ja and Undead Swarm post the 90 pound wuss for a guard.

Every other BeastmenToA and WotG fortress ever conceived is more frightening by contrast and they all should be. But apparently the ToA Beastmen are so damn stupid they allow the Empire to have a foothold in the heart of each of thier bases.

Parties filled with two specific jobs being able to earn 20k+ an hour or Parties filled up with any combination of multiple jobs being able to earn 20k an hour? Which is better? (p.s. it's the second option)

And ToAU strong holds are freaking nuts. What the hell are you talking about? *Every* dungeon has it's weakest mobs near the entrances and it's strongest deep within it's center. Every single staging point is on the doorstep of one of these strong holds, far from their "heart". The only exception may be the Mamool Ja point, but Mamook isn't all that big to begin with and the mobs in that Exp camp are actually pretty dangerous. Though they're still torn apart by any decent TP burn pt because in the end Imps and Colibri aren't the real problem

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

But SE sent RNGs the wrong message at the EXP level when they destroyed that job and then it was suddenly OK for everyone to do what RNGs and BLMs had done previously. SE let this be reinforced by the fact that it went on and on and it was BLM and RNG largely left out of it.

How were Rng left out of burn PTs on piercing weak mobs? Sure they were still nerfed and recovering slowly through the updates, but even at it's worst Rng was far from a bad DD when gear properly. And Blm got their Puddings, so it's not like they were ignored completely either.

Burn PTs now are no different than what RNGs were doing back then. Even though there were level difference penalties, we were hunting T and VT mobs. Hunting T and VT mob has always been the most effective party EXP per hour, but PTs in the Zilart/CoP era were so stuck on IT++ they didn't want to do it. They were still all about EXP per Kill back then. In that respect, RNGs and BLMs were ahead of the curve.

Iirc, Rngs were downing IT Dhamels in Bibiki in seconds because of how broken they were. It's why they were the superior burn.

The instant the nerf came into effect it was all about WARx4. It did not start in ToA camps, it started with Weapons in Sky. WAR didn't suddently turn into a beast - it was because they were once RNGs and knew what to exploit better than anyone else did at the time.

No, when SE broke Rng, all those Rng jumped to BLACKMAGE, not War. War and Sky burns have always existed, even during the Arrowburn rage.

Originally Posted by Karinya

TP burning at 30 remains a dumb idea even today, but I think the reason people don't learn how to SC at 30 is that they don't SC at 75.

Bull. Crap.

TP burns are always incredibly effective when you have plenty of T-VT targets to pull from. I've TP burned in Dunes, in Qufim, in the Jungles, in the Desert, in Kuftal, in Boyahada, in CN, in GC etc etc etc. And I would do these *long* before ToAU and little pink birds came out. It's not the magical new mobs that make TP burns effective (though they do help) it's the whole concept and system of how EXP is gained. The cap on Exp gained for killing an IT mob really limits how much EXP you can get from killing IT mobs, even with chains. If you can get just as much Exp from chaining two T mobs as you can from killing one IT mob, you're going to go kill those T mobs. Because they die faster, do less damage, waste less MP and chain easier. As said before, people always take the path of least resistance, and T crabs and VT crawlers offer absolutely no resistance.

As for the actual topic at hand. A good Thf is a DD pure and through. TA isn't there to plant hate on the tank, it's to keep your backstabbing ass alive after you drop a 1k DE or Evic on the mob. At endgame, unless the mob has a Flail type attack, a Thf should be bouncing all around dropping SAs, TAs and WS constantly, yet never end up being attacked directly because they keep pumping their hate into other poor saps. Pre-60 it's a massive headache as you need to rely on your PT and teammates to line up the mob, set up your SC and try their best not to screw you over. As soon as you hit 60 though it's a whole new ball game, and as a Thf you should be doing more then your share of the work.

In terms of Subs, if I can go War I do it. On big mobs and the like, unless they have an AoE that can be absorbed by Shadows I prefer to go Drk. None of the hate issues other jobs get from SE+LR+WSs since you can plant all that on someone else, and a nice natural attack bonus traits certainly helps. Throw in some stuns against big attacks, and /drk sub really ends up being a lot of fun. Sam sub is only good when you're not going to melee things, only time I really make use of it is during that Ryaaf Assault mission, otherwise much of /Sam's potential just goes to waste.

A good Thf is a good DD. Not just for WS, but DPS as well.

[Armando]

Bull. Crap.

TP burns are always incredibly effective when you have plenty of T-VT targets to pull from. I've TP burned in Dunes, in Qufim, in the Jungles, in the Desert, in Kuftal, in Boyahada, in CN, in GC etc etc etc. And I would do these *long* before ToAU and little pink birds came out. It's not the magical new mobs that make TP burns effective (though they do help) it's the whole concept and system of how EXP is gained. The cap on Exp gained for killing an IT mob really limits how much EXP you can get from killing IT mobs, even with chains. If you can get just as much Exp from chaining two T mobs as you can from killing one IT mob, you're going to go kill those T mobs. Because they die faster, do less damage, waste less MP and chain easier. As said before, people always take the path of least resistance, and T crabs and VT crawlers offer absolutely no resistance.

Your disagreement is based more on miscommunication than facts. Just because you put together 4 DDs and 2 back line jobs it doesn't automatically make it a TP burn. It's not a TP burn if you're not downing mobs in 30 secs and keeping a pseudo-infinite EXP chain going. That sort of shit doesn't happen at Level 30 for various reasons: lack of mob availability, mob level difference shifting as the party levels, Sushi not giving a whole lot of Acc yet, and WS not doing 6-8 times your normal damage and taking off 1/3 of the mob's HP. Yet people will still spam WS mindlessly as if that'll kill the mob better than taking a slight loss in TP and skillchaining, like Karinya said. The only legit excuses not to SC are:
A) The mob is very resistant to magic (not an issue at low levels)
B) There's no way to SC without resorting to very weak and shitty WS OR the only SC closer is a job with relatively weak WS (can happen at low levels, but infrequently; this is more an issue at high levels where the best WS are usually the ones that don't have Lv.2 SC properties)
C) There is a big difference in TP gain speed between both party members (not likely to happen at low levels)

Going after High T/VT/Low IT mobs in a melee heavy party with a BRD or COR = good EXP, but you're not really TP burning.