[Rones]

What will paeon do against any of these mobs... itll recover 1 HP every tick, the mobs hit for 30ish at that lvl... hmm...

And what does Mage's Ballad do at 25? Oh its only 1 mp per tick so it's worthless to. Considering almost all the mobs you fight from 10-30 do aoe (with mandy's only exception) everyone is going to have some dmg. One cast of paon will go 2 min, in that time it will do 40 hp per person, which maxes at 6x40 = 240 hp free every 2 min, that's 2.5 cure 2's which is equal to 24 mp x 2.5 = 61 mp. 61 mp saved on cures every 2 min is a pretty big mp saver when you compare it to the 40 mp mage's ballad gives every 2 min at 25 and this isn't even getting into the fact that the less curing means less hate for the main healer which is always a good thing at those lvls.

Minuet is easily outdone by food, but now youlll sya, "stack them," yes lets stack them... wow 5 more atk >.> thatll add a whole 0 DMG to your attacks

A chiefkabob's are better than mithkabobs, what's your point? Minuet would also affect your whole party instead of just you. Without an instrument my minuet added ~12-15 atk if I remember right. Not a huge difference, but its for the whole party and a full brd's only adds around 25-30atk at that lvl. Plus, 12-15 atk for the whole party is better than +0 the other subs provide.

Madrigal isnt til 22 THF, and supposedly +15 acc.... how do you know you get +15 acc in the first place

That is courtesy of AppliePie and his JP game guides that come with all the forumales in the game. If you had checked that other thread I had linked to, you would have seen it mentioned there too. Here's a quote from ApplePie:

/RNG10 : +10 Accuracy/Ranged Accuracy
/RNG30 : +12 (Total 22) Accuracy/Ranged Accuracy
/RNG50 : +13 (Total 35) Accuracy/Ranged Accuracy

For your reference,

Focus (MNK25): +20 Accuracy
Aggressor (WAR45): +25 Accuracy
Sword Madrigal (BRD11): +15 Accuracy (Can be up to +19 with Traversiere +1)
Great Sword Madrigal (BRD51): +25 Accuracy (Can be up to +29 with Traversiere +1)

There is a reason BRD dont "Sing" they only use instruments. (Area spans, +'s, etc)

Primary reason is to be able to stack 2 songs at once. Seconday is for songs such as minuet, which draw from singing and wind or string skill to get total modifier. Third is for the +1 and +2 upgrades to songs which are a really minor effect, +2 madrigal is only +4 more accu and 30 seconds extra. Same thing with +2 minuet, the extra atk from it isn't very large. AOE size for a wind instrument and singing are nearly the same.

. +15 acc would be like me wearing a Scorpharness and a Sniper... Using a sharness and a sniper at lv 11(or 22 in this case) would make you hit 9/10 swings of your weapon, which is definitely not the cases.

Go try fruitpunches, they are +10 accu if you want to try a comparison. On the two occasions I partied with a brd on my mnk, madrigal did let me hit 4/5 of the time I would estimate.

Then LOOK! you get Paeon II at lv 30... theres 2 HP per tick and you are now gimp because it offers no good boosts to THF.

Thank you for totally overlooking my many comments that this is pre 30. 30+ I prefer war sub for berserk and later double attack.

first of all you wouldnt USE THF/MNK unless you plan on use H2H, if you use dagger pre-30(which is just plain stupid) or sword pre-30, youd use WAR sub and get more STR.

The str difference between subs at this lvl is minimal. You will have a much larger difference from your race selection alone which everyone says doesn't matter.

Okay...i've seen a 15thf/brd before, she used a dagger. HOW LAME IS THAT.

The weapon some newb used in valkurm has what relevence to this discussion? We are talking subjobs, any subjob can use a crappy weapon. Both variables are independent of each other.

Get over it, thf/brd sucks for PTs.

Thank you for displaying such great reasoning skills.

[John Doe III]

Thank you for displaying such great reasoning skills.

Np D;/

Thf/brd sucks. The Thf/brd was also one of the earliest importers to FFXI, probably less IQ than Arvy. She knows more about the game than you i'd amagine though.

Primary reason is to be able to stack 2 songs at once. Seconday is for songs such as minuet, which draw from singing and wind or string skill to get total modifier. Third is for the +1 and +2 upgrades to songs which are a really minor effect, +2 madrigal is only +4 more accu and 30 seconds extra. Same thing with +2 minuet, the extra atk from it isn't very large. AOE size for a wind instrument and singing are nearly the same.

What does two songs have to do with thf/brd? They only get one subbing brd, so stop straying off topic.

The str difference between subs at this lvl is minimal. You will have a much larger difference from your race selection alone which everyone says doesn't matter.

And there is a STR telling difference low level bud..>.> That's why they have damage dealing jobs...doh.

Go ahead, waste your time quoting more! I can go on, I think Toki can to.

[Tokitoki]

heres what we're gonna do. Since the reasons you give are basiclly saying that ANY job can sub BRD and be successful, ill take my 14 MNK and sub BRD. Ill do Paeon at the end and beginning of fights, ill do Madrigal at 22, ill do Minuet, and lets see:

1) How many invites i actually get, the problem with this is my rank..

2) How useful the PTs actually think this is, and ill take Fraps SS as to EXACTLY what they say.

3) Ill record the exact amount of ATK+ for everyone to see (yet again pic courtesy of Fraps) so you can stop saying "id addeda bout this" and "~that."


This should be an incredibly BORING weekend and waste of time...

[Rones]

What does two songs have to do with thf/brd? They only get one subbing brd, so stop straying off topic.

If you would stop being so arrogant and took 2 min to read my post you would have seen I was responding to Tok's comments as to why/what brd's use instruments for. So stop posting if you aren't going to read.

And there is a STR telling difference low level bud..>.> That's why they have damage dealing jobs...doh.

Hume lvl 20 thf/war has 22 str. lvl 20 thf/brd has 21 str. 1 str difference is nothing and pales to difference caused by race.

John, why are you even posting? You have not stated a single valid point yet and are just degrading the quality of this entire discussion.

Ill do Paeon at the end and beginning of fights, ill do Madrigal at 22, ill do Minuet, and lets see:

I would recommend paon until madrigal is avaiable personally. I double checked my minuet amounts. Full brd with +2 instrument is +16 atk. Subbed without instrument is +6. Either way minuet doesn't make a huge difference.

I never asked you to go do anything that extensive in game, I'm mainly asking what do other sub jobs offer that surpasses paon and madrigal before lvl 30?

1) How many invites i actually get, the problem with this is my rank..

That wouldn't be a problem with the combination, that's a problemof people personal bias and ignorance of how the job works when subbed. (such as the misconception that song length is drastically cut).

[John Doe III]

Originally posted by Rones
John, why are you even posting? You have not stated a single valid point yet and are just degrading the quality of this entire discussion.

Actually i'm just doing this for fun now D;/ You seem so determined to prove that THF/BRD JUST PWNXORZ!

[Odepa]

Just as a reference, I would never sub BRD or any other job that can be -lets call it- odd, but last sunday leveling WHM from 25 to 27 in Kazham, I was leading a PT of WHM, BLM, SAM, SAM, PLD, DRG; and the BLM got DCed, the DRG asked very nicely if I mind if he changed his sub to BRD and promissed it would be good, well I accepted. I have to say that I only used enfeebling for the rest of the PT, we where doing Expchain4, we could have done better but it was way too crowded, I only used regen on PLD, and DRG at the start of each fight and forgot about anything but being sure that the mob kept enfeebled and that I had full MP pool at all the time. I never invite ppl with unusual jobs even if they are from my LS, but at that time we where about to stop PT and I accepted, being the WHM I really noticed a difference, but I have to note that:

-We all had been in Kazham at least 4 times before with other job
-We all knew what the job we where doing is about, no chickensh*t PLD afraid to cure himself, the SAMs knew how to SC, DRG do very decent dmg at those lvls
-Having +50 jobs we all had combat/magic status maxed, wich surely helps
-All the hate of the mandragoras went from the PLD to the DRG, neither the SAMs or I where getting hitted once.
-Definitly not having a trigger happy n00b BLM, that nuked everything before the PLD even voked was more of a benefit to the PT and downtime caused from raising her 3 times.

Now, I wonder if the hate turned to the DRG because of the songs or the dmg he was doing, but if it was because of the songs I think that having a gob doing rush or trowing bolts wouldnt be healthy for a THF. Once again, I wouldnt sub BRD in any of my jobs (I dont like to wait for invite, I really dont), but after that PT, if I see someone with decent equipment and rank LFP, while lvling a pre 30 job, with subbed BRD I will invite him/her just to see if it still work, of course Im not talking about the PLD or anyother tank. BTW besides going duo with a RNG to 25, that was the only decent PT I had in the whole weekend.

[Rones]

Thank you Odepa. That is exactly what I was trying to get across. I'm not saying its an awesome sub job like John is implying I am. I am saying compared to the other sub jobs available at pre 30 it can perform better. Majority of subjobs pre 30 are near worthless when looking at abilities and job traits, they just don't provide anything yet. Brd on the other hand, does provide a free boost to your party and you aren't missing out on any key abilities yet (eg: berserk for melees, conserve mp for mages).

I have had the pleasure of partying in valkurm and qufim on 2 occasions with some very experienced players who subbed brd for their melee job and it worked quite nicely.

[Macht]

I have to chime in on this. While leveling all my jobs, did for kicks, I leveled half of them using BRD up to 20. BRD came is very handy especially between lv. 10 - 20 when I got Paeon.

Even though Paeon doesn't seem like much of a boost it was just that little extra I need to continue taking on EM and Tough monsters till I was 15. The jobs were I did not use BRD couldn't solo EM monsters after lv. 10 and definatly not Tough ones it became to much of a risk to do so.

The biggest benefit that having someone with BRD sub at that level is you reduce the MP used after battles. Any smart WHM seeing that Paeon is in effect will not attempt to heal the party to full HP, because odds are at that level the Paeon will be capable.

The odd combinations actually work fine there is only one catch to it. The rest of the party has be smart enough to put the combinations effectiveness to use. That usually is the biggest problem with it to many with lack luster Intellect to do that.

For me with the jobs though after lv. 20 I switched out BRD nearly every time.

[Huck]

Thf/blm is more than it's suspected to be :/
Has anyone ever Tried it?
I have.
Here are some pro's you've missed on it
-Magic Attack Up trait effects elemental WS (30% extra damage to elemental WS's per +magic attack bonus) This is real nice 20~33, where you use Gust Slash for your WS. And fun to AOE Cyclone things for more damage when farming.
-You can Warp. (at 34+) Hume with RS pants has over 100MP for it
-You can MB Blizard on your Distortion SC's (For like 70 damage too!)
-You have the same dex/agi as thf/nin at lv50.

I was a thf/blm for a while, it was good stuff ^^

I was also a thf/sam.
Thf/sam isn't great. You don't get any more TP with it, even 60+. At 60+ meditate isn't as great as I thought. It only gives you 60% TP.

I currently play thf/war.
I like it more than thf/nin. Berserk is Sick on SA/TA/WS. SICK! I have a lot of +atk, and if I get a Warcry too, I have 600+ atk before doing WS.

I like thf/whm for farming.
Stoneskin, Blink, Cure's (MP comes back so much faster than HP.) and Invisible/Sneak/Deodorize all sorts of fun things. I can even raise dead newbies I see laying around

I'll close with my personal opinions of thf/nin. I wouldn't use it, but heres what I can say about it.
I've also used thf/nin
The problem with thf/nin, is everyone seems to want to use a lust dagger/Greed Scimitar, for stats. You forget to note, that your Sword is like D- on your skills. The sword adds a big delay, and misses a lot due to -20~40 skill points from the low skill cap. The key to thf/nin is to get a little speedy dagger in the offhand, the main stat you want is speed. Get a Hornet Needle, or Garuda's Dagger, and your TP will come very fast. But not so much faster that it is worth choosing thf/nin over thf/war. Thf/war manages to get TP just about as a thf/nin using a semi-fast dagger, only if you have a 150ish delay dagger, will a thf/nin out TP gain a thf/war. Thf/war has double attack too. Commonly overlooked, Triple and Double = Good Stuff. Just about every attack is one of these, and sometimes they both occur at the same time.
Imagine each X is a "hit" and a , seperates it by the attack.
The common Triple would look like this X X X. Some thf/nin get excited about "Double Tripling" X X X, X X X... Wow, twice in a row... they should get a prize.
Each hit of a triple CAN trigger a double, and each hit of a double CAN trigger a triple. This can happen with a warrior X XX X, or X XXX, I see this happen sometimes. It's not uncommon to see chain reactions of these like XX[XX(X[XX])] X[XX]X XX.... This CAN happen.

[Rico]

Great information, sticked .

[Huck]

I don't think this deserves a sticky.
All toki did was estimate what he thought the subjobs would do. I bet anyone who has never played as thief, or thought about every detail of it could write the same thing. Then he said how they were not thf/nin -> Should not be played.

[Spider-Dan]

I don't understand why there is so much hate towards pre-30 /BRD.

Before you hit 30, /WAR doesn't offer anything if you aren't tanking. We can all safely agree that subjob base stat differences are so small as to be meaningless. Considering subjob traits/abilities, what does /WAR offer? Provoke and Defense Bonus. That's it.

If you are not tanking, almost every melee subjob is the-same-or-better than /WAR pre-30. From 20-29, /RNG is hands down better for any DD melee job (ACC+10 from Accuracy Trait). /MNK's Martial Arts and Boost are also much more useful (especially if THF is not pulling). /NIN DW gives you a guaranteed extra hit on every SA and 10% DW haste.

The only argument you can make pre-30 for /WAR is that it's another Provoke. This is actually a more valid point than in later levels, since (in these low levels) the defense difference between melees is not particularly big; pretty much everyone is wearing the same gear. Still, if you've got a "dedicated tank" in party, this point doesn't really apply.

Madrigal and/or Minuet are much more useful to yourself and the party than the tiny stat benefits from /WAR. Before Berserk comes into the picture, /BRD would certainly seem to be better.

[Rico]

I don't think this deserves a sticky.
All toki did was estimate what he thought the subjobs would do. I bet anyone who has never played as thief, or thought about every detail of it could write the same thing. Then he said how they were not thf/nin -> Should not be played.

But this sticky prevents for people doing the same topic over and over. Sure the information is breif and simple but have you seen how many topics of Thief sub jobs have been made? Too many so I thought it would be best to sticky this and for everyone to add information. :p

[Tokitoki]

Originally posted by Huck
I bet anyone who has never played as thief, or thought about every detail of it could write the same thing. Then he said how they were not thf/nin -> Should not be played.

The point was for people to stop posting the same topic like rico said... I know its not terribly in-depth but i wrote it right before i went to bed after seeing tons of topics about sub jobs...

And i NEVER, ANYWHERE said anything other than /nin shouldnt be played... All i said is that it is what i prefer and that it makes pulling faster mobs easier because you ahve less chance of being killed on a long pull...

[Funguwari]

THF/BRD?

Wow...

Go home, you tool.