[Ryoii/Nonomii]

My level sync parties (Lv25-45) have seen easy access to a main healer or parties where one isn't needed (PLD+2xDD/DNC), so I've been inviting SMN primarily for damage dealing, pulling, and healing assistance.

Even in a party taking significant damage, DNC SJ seems to provide 33% of the healing needed. What do you think about SMN/DNC? Would you use it over SMN/WHM for times when you can keep your pet out or DD with Blood Pact: Rage?

Some Numbers to Consider

Lv30 SMN/DNC

Melee DD
Carbuncle Mitts
FoV Refresh
Auto Refresh

Damage & TP:
Elm Pole +1
- 4.62 DPS
- 10 TP per hit
- 6.5 seconds per swing
Carbuncle for 0 MP/Tick

Rough damage for comparison with Lv30 Blood Pact: Rage & Lv30 Military Axe (5.82 DPS) = 4.62*60*0.95+Carbuncle DoT = 263.34 DMG + ???

Curing Waltz 70HP/20TP = 3.5HP/TP

TP from meleeing for 60 seconds with 95% accuracy = 60/6.5*0.95*10 = 87.69 TP
HP healed from TP = 87.69*3.5 = 306.92 HP
HP healed from Healing Ruby = 44 HP (formula on wiki apparently isn't correct)

Total HP healed = 350.92 HP

Magic DD
FoV Refresh (1 MP/Tick)
Auto Refresh (1 MP/Tick)
Clear Mind II (18, 19, 20, ...)
Ginger Cookies (+5 resting MP)
Mana Wand (+2 resting MP)

Damage Dealt = Double Punch DMG = ???

Cure II 90HP/24MP = 3.75HP/MP

MP from 60 second rest = 25+26+27+28+29 = 135 MP
MP from refresh = 20+20 = 40 MP
MP used for Double Punch = 56 (blood pact) + 7 (summoning) + 12 (perpetuation) = 75

HP healed from MP = (135+40-75)*3.75 = 375 HP

Notes on Accuracy
I just assumed 95% accuracy to get an idea of how much healing could be accomplished from TP. I'll figure out actual accuracy the next time I log in. I need to get the evasion from a Lv38 enemy, but here are my thoughts on gear and food.

Head: Emperor Hairpin DEX+3
Neck: Spike Necklace DEX+3
Body: Mercenary Captain's Doublet DEX+1
Hands: Carbuncle Mitts
Ring1: Balance Ring DEX+2
Ring2: Balance Ring DEX+2

Hume Lv30 SMN/DNC
Base DEX = 28
Staff Skill = 89
Gear = DEX+11
Food = Bream Sushi = DEX+6 & ACC+16%

Accuracy
ACC from DEX = (28+11+6)/4*3 = 33
ACC from Skill = 89
ACC from Gear = 3
Total ACC = (33+89)*1.16 = 141

Hit Rate
Lv37 Soldier Crawler = 124 evasion
(turned from normal evasion with 133.5 accuracy to low evasion with 134 accuracy)
Hit Rate = 75% + (ACC-EVA)*0.5% + (ATK_LV-DEF_LV)*2%
= 75 + (141-124)*0.5 + (30-37)*2 = 75+17*0.5-14 = 69.5%

[Armando]

Damage Dealt = 4.62*60*0.95+Carbuncle DoT = 263.34 DMG + Carbuncle DoT

This formula does not really represent damage (much less the SMN-to-Carbuncle damage ratio) in any way since Attack/Defense isn't factored in. Also, perfect hit rate is impossible at Level 30 in a normal party without some really heavy, fucked up support (BRD + COR?)

Not to mention the fact that Summoning in itself takes a lengthy amount of time...a minimum of 7 seconds from what I understand, so that's 14 secs every time you switch from Carbuncle to Shiva and back.

If you ask me this won't really fly very well until around 50 when you can really start reaping the benefits of Accuracy foods, in addition to having access to Life Belt and Accuracy Rings (which are mandatory if you're even considering pulling this off.)

[Yellow Mage]

Not to mention that, hey look at that, a SAM/DNC can actually do all three of those things much better.

Shame that Summoners have crap for melee stats and the second best INT and MND in the game when the latter mean diddly-squat and you can't rest with a summon out, anyway.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Sorry for the way I conveyed the original post. I was just looking for some thoughts from others on an alternate play style. The biggest fault I find for SMN as melee DD/support is staff DoT. SMN/WHM meleeing with Carbuncle out and doing weak WS seems like such a waste, but that is usually what I end up with whenever I invite one. However, Summoners usually do a fantastic job pulling, which tends to make the parties great.

Armando is absolutely right though about the DMG numbers. I was just haphazardly throwing out a number since it really didn't matter without knowing the avatar base damage and delay. Originally I wrote down damage numbers to compare against a Military Axe (5.82 DPS) or Blood Pact: Rage if I could get numbers for Double Punch and Carbuncle DoT.

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Personally I just play to have fun and form parties out of whoever is seeking. So far I've only gotten complements on how remarkably successful my strange parties have been (>6k xp per hour).

Here are just a few of the odd yet successful parties I've had since I started play again (RDM/DNC or DNC/NIN):

Lv25-28 (Yuhtunga Jungle Mandragora and Goblins)
WAR/MNK (tank), DNC/NIN (main healer), DRK/NIN (puller), RDM/WHM (regen), SCH/RDM (nuking), WAR/NIN (backup tank)

Lv33-36 (Garliage Citidel Siege Bats and Borer Beetles)
DNC/NINx2 (tanking and healing), RDM/WHM (dispel, regen, and enfeebles), BST/NIN (pulling), MNK/WAR, SAM/WAR

Lv41-45 (Crawlers' Next Soldier Crawlers and Blazer Beetles)
BST/WHMx2 (DD/healing), RDM/DNC (healing, enfeebling, refreshing), THF/NIN (pulling), SAM/WAR (tanking), BLU/NIN

Lv41-45 (Crawlers' Next Soldier Crawlers and Blazer Beetles)
WAR/NIN (tanking), BLU/NIN (often also tanking), RDM/DNC (healing and dispel), RDM/WHM (enfeebling, regen, & refresh), BRD/NIN (pulling), MNK/WAR

Lv45-47 (Crawlers' Next Rumble Crawlers and Blazer Beetles)
PLD/WAR (tanking), RDM/DNC (healing, enfeebling, refreshing), SMN/WHM (meleeing and pulling with carbuncle always out), MNK/WAR, SAM/WAR, DRG/NIN

[Yellow Mage]

Originally Posted by Ryoii/Nonomii

SMN/WHM meleeing with Carbuncle out and doing weak WS seems like such a waist,

And not a particularly attractive one, at that.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Crawler Evasion & Defense

Lv37-41 - Yuhtunga Jungle - Soldier Crawler

Lv37
Normal Evasion @ 133.5 ACC > Low Evasion @ 134 ACC
Evasion = 134 - 10 = 124

Normal Defense @ 164 ATK > Low Defense @ 165 ATK
Defense = 165/1.25 = 132

Lv38
Normal Evasion @ 136.5 ACC > Low Evasion @ 137 ACC
Evasion = 137 - 10 = 127

Normal Defense @ 166 ATK > Low Defense @ 167 ATK
Defense = 167/1.25 = 133

Lv39
Normal Evasion @ 140.5 ACC > Low Evasion @ 141 ACC
Evasion = 141 - 10 = 131

Normal Defense @ 171 ATK > Low Defense @ 172 ATK
Defense = 172/1.25 = 137

Lv40
Normal Evasion @ 143.5 ACC > Low Evasion @ 144 ACC
Evasion = 144 - 10 = 134

Normal Defense @ 174 ATK > Low Defense @ 175 ATK
Defense = 175/1.25 = 140

Lv41
Normal Evasion @ 147.5 ACC > Low Evasion @ 148 ACC
Evasion = 148 - 10 = 138

Normal Defense @ 179 ATK > Low Defense @ 180 ATK
Defense = 180/1.25 = 144

Lv40-44 - Crawlers' Nest - Worker Crawler

Lv40
Normal Evasion @ 143.5 ACC > Low Evasion @ 144 ACC
Evasion = 144 - 10 = 134

Normal Defense @ 174 ATK > Low Defense @ 175 ATK
Defense = 175/1.25 = 140

Lv41
Normal Evasion @ 147.5 ACC > Low Evasion @ 148 ACC
Evasion = 148 - 10 = 138

Normal Defense @ 179 ATK > Low Defense @ 180 ATK
Defense = 180/1.25 = 144

Lv42
Normal Evasion @ 149.5 ACC > Low Evasion @ 150 ACC
Evasion = 150 - 10 = 140

Normal Defense @ 181 ATK > Low Defense @ 182 ATK
Defense = 180/1.25 = 145

Lv43
Normal Evasion @ 152.5 ACC > Low Evasion @ 153 ACC
Evasion = 153 - 10 = 143

Normal Defense @ 185 ATK > Low Defense @ 186 ATK
Defense = 186/1.25 = 149

Lv44
Normal Evasion @ 156.5 ACC > Low Evasion @ 157 ACC
Evasion = 157 - 10 = 147

Normal Defense @ 190 ATK > Low Defense @ 191 ATK
Defense = 191/1.25 = 153

Lv47-49 - Crawlers' Nest - Soldier Crawler

Lv47
Normal Evasion @ 165.5 ACC > Low Evasion @ 166 ACC
Evasion = 166 - 10 = 156

Normal Defense @ 201 ATK > Low Defense @ 202 ATK
Defense = 202/1.25 = 161

Lv48
Normal Evasion @ 169.5 ACC > Low Evasion @ 170 ACC
Evasion = 170 - 10 = 160

Normal Defense @ 204 ATK > Low Defense @ 205 ATK
Defense = 205/1.25 = 164

Lv49
Normal Evasion @ 172.5 ACC > Low Evasion @ 173 ACC
Evasion = 173 - 10 = 163

Normal Defense @ 208 ATK > Low Defense @ 209 ATK
Defense = 209/1.25 = 167

Lv53-55 - Crawlers' Nest - Rumble Crawler

Lv53
Normal Evasion @ 192.75 ACC > Low Evasion @ 193.5 ACC
Evasion = 193 - 10 = 183

High Defense @ 183 ATK > Normal Defense @ 184 ATK
Defense = 184

Lv54
Normal Evasion @ 197.75 ACC > Low Evasion @ 198.5 ACC
Evasion = 198 - 10 = 188

High Defense @ 189 ATK > Normal Defense @ 190 ATK
Defense = 190

Lv55
Normal Evasion @ 203.75 ACC > Low Evasion @ 204.5 ACC
Evasion = 204 - 10 = 194

High Defense @ 193 ATK > Normal Defense @ 194 ATK
Defense = 194

Hit Rate Analysis

Calculations

Lv30 SMN/DNC
Staff Skill = 89
Hume DEX = 28
DEX Gear = 13 (Brass Grip +1, Emperor Hairpin, Spike Necklace, Balance Rings, Merc. Cpt. Body)
ACC Gear = 0
Food = Bream Sushi (DEX+6, ACC+16%)
Total ACC = [89+0+(28+13+6)*3/4]*1.16 = 144
Hit Rate = 75+(144-124)*0.5-(37-30)*2 = 71

Lv40 SMN/DNC
Staff Skill = 118
Hume DEX = 35
DEX Gear = 8
ACC Gear = 15
Food = Bream Sushi (DEX+6, ACC+16%)
Total ACC = [118+15+(35+8+6)*3/4]*1.16 = 196
Hit Rate = 75+(196-156)*0.5-(47-40)*2 = 81

Lv48 SMN/DNC
Staff Skill = 141
Hume DEX = 42
DEX Gear = 8
ACC Gear = 20
Food = Bream Sushi (DEX+6, ACC+16%)
Total ACC = [141+20+(42+8+6)*3/4]*1.16 = 235
Hit Rate = 75+(235-194)*0.5-(55-48)*2 = 81.5

Lv30 SMN/DNC v. Lv37 Soldier Crawler = 71% Hit Rate (DEX+13, Bream Sushi)
Lv40 SMN/DNC v. Lv47 Soldier Crawler = 81% Hit Rate (Tilt Belt, Woodsman Rings, DEX+8, Bream Sushi)
Lv48 SMN/DNC v. Lv55 Rumble Crawler = 81.5% Hit Rate (Life Belt, Woodsman Rings, DEX+8, Bream Sushi)

As Armando pointed out, this definitely isn't a 95% hit rate. I would not have guessed accuracy would be so low with sushi.

In a trio fighting tough enemies, you'll probably see 95% hit rate. Perhaps Lv60 will also bring a higher hit rate (DNC accuracy bonus, chivalrous chain, and increased skill will all help sushi).

[Kailea]

SMN/SCH with dark arts and do decent magic damage instead

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Hmm, SMN/SCH as magic DD, puller, and support. Seems odd at first, but I think I like it more than SMN/DNC. They could even have Carbuncle melee while nuking or pull with the avatar they plan to use for the blood pact to save casting time. I suppose they would summon, pull, blood pact, regen, nuke, dismiss, rest, and repeat.

Lv24 - Aero
Lv32 - Fire
Lv34 - Cure II
Lv36 - Regen
Lv40 - Blizzard
Lv42 - Drain
Lv48 - Thunder
Lv60 - Sleep
Lv60 - Stone II
Lv60 - Cure III
Lv64 - Dispel

However, I did some calculations, and my Lv48 WAR/DNC using a Viking Axe only has an 88% hit rate with Bream Sushi while tanking Lv55 Rumble Crawlers, so an 81% hit rate isn't too bad.

[Karinya]

Sleep and Dispel require Addendum: Black, which somewhat cuts against the curing and regen idea. Also, your nukes will be small, even though not necessarily heavily resisted.

Don't forget Level 70 Raise, Reraise, Sublimation, and Level 74 Regen II.

Oh, and aspir, if the mob type allows it. I forget the exact level, but it's higher than drain.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

SMN/DNC for the fail. FTF

SMN/SCH FTOIG (for the OK I guess...)

SCH gets MAB doesn't it? Which makes better sense than /WHM...

[Yellow Mage]

Originally Posted by ShadowHolyFlyingDragon

SCH gets MAB doesn't it?

No I don't believe they do. They do get every other mage-relevant trait. But since we're dealing with Summoner here, two of those traits are already present (and like traits don't stack), and the other two are almost-always tragically irrelevant.

That aside, I am a firm supporter of the SMN/SCH combination. Hint: you usually don't sub it for the traits so much as the native magic tricks. And Sublimation. The traits are really just icing that comes with the cake.

One more thing: if you're going to nuke, first gear for it, then Drain. Accept no substitutes. If you're fighting undead it's probably best not to bother.

[Sabaron]

SMN/SCH is more useful as a healer than as a DD. SMN is not a DD job. You cannot make a job into something else just by wishing it.

SMN/SCH gives: Scholar Support Job - FFXIclopedia, the Final Fantasy XI wiki - Characters, items, jobs, and more

Among other things:

MP Recovery:
Sublimation
Aspir

Buffs & Curatives
Regen II
Reraise
-na spells through Cursna
Cure I, II, & III
Raise
Sneak/Invisible

Utlility Spells
Dispel
Sleep

Nukes are meager at best.

/SCH is inferior to /WHM for most lower level ranges because of /SCH's slow Cure spell progression, and only really comes into its own after Sublimation at 70th level.

[Solymir]

A long long time ago in a time when partying with friends was more commonplace (perhaps I am remembering it more fondly than it really was) I was partying on my Summoner in Crawler's Nest fighting the crawlers in the lower level. Since I was with friends and they didn't mind a little experimentation (sp?) I was meleeing with a decent staff, doing stoneskin and then a fenrir rage blood pact. Now I had no way of knowing what my actual numbers were, but for me on that day it seemed better for me to rest between pacts, do some back up cure, and let my avatars do the occasional damage. That was probably the day I fully resigned myself to the fact that I would be a Buffer, Damage Dealer (through avatars), and Backup Cure when I was in parties.

YM already said it, but I will repeat it here, that time between pacts when you can rest and get mp back is too valuable to spend on meleeing. An idea like this might be okay in the lower levels, but I won't recommend trying to do it. If a Summoner wants to use their staff to hit stuff they should either solo or go to campaign. Oh and if you for-go eating hMP food for Acc food you are only cheating yourself out of doing more blood pacts.

That is my two gil, which probably isn't worth that much.

Originally Posted by Sabaron

SMN is not a DD job.

Yes it is. However, it does not make a great Melee job.

[Kailea]

well when I mentioned /SCH, I ment is at dark arts > nuke, would be better then anything /DNC would do -.-

your a SMN, you dont melee

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Kailea

well when I mentioned /SCH, I ment is at dark arts > nuke, would be better then anything /DNC would do -.-

Because Stone II at Lv.60 is just that impressive? Or perhaps you were thinking about Water II at Lv.75?