[Ketaru]

Originally Posted by Takelli

The official Bitching thread for Bards new songs! Why not all jobs get Str bonus!!!

The topic of the thread is now officially "How to make BRD more interesting and more engaging", not "How to make BRD more tedious for no reasons". And it is definitely not "How to further widen the job popularity gap".

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Armando

That doesn't change the fact that Minne, Minuet, and Mambo will perpetually be eclipsed by March and Madrigal in all but the most obscure and situational settings. Haste is the ultimate offensive AND defensive stat because of affecting spell recast timers, and Accuracy increases your damage in a non-linear manner as well so a lack of it is downright crippling to the point that even PLDs and NINs will probably see more benefit from a fat Acc boost than a fat Defense/Evasion Boost. The answer is always "Need Acc? OK, let's trade off a Haste song for an Acc song." If the mob's Eva isn't a problem, the answer is invariably Haste, not Attack.

But none of that is a BRD problem - the same stat hierarchy applies whether a BRD is present or not. The fact that some stats are more important leads to people asking BRDs to buff the more important stats and not the less important stats. (Although I think *some* of the neglect of Attack is conventional wisdom triumphing over actual effectiveness - people see more frequent WS and think they're doing more damage. Haste and Acc certainly are useful, but it's possible to focus excessively on them and get pwned by a more balanced stat build, especially at lower levels where mobs aren't quite so pathetic relative to players. I think that lower level exp is much better balanced than 60+, atm.) But that's not a problem with the design of BRD, it's a problem with the exp environment as a whole - it's oriented toward killing nonthreatening mobs as fast as possible, especially at high levels.

Moreover, there is not a wide enough variance in stats across mobs.

And the variance in commonly fought mobs is even less. But again, that's not a BRD problem, it's a whole game problem. Redesigning BRD wouldn't solve it. I think SE should do more to differentiate mobs and *much* more to encourage players to fight a wider variety of mobs. But that has little to do with redesign of specific jobs, which I think it's fair to interpret as meaning in the absence of such major game-wide changes.

You forget that my idea also implies having the situational songs not require that you sacrifice another buff. Etudes aren't strong enough to warrant replacing another buff with them. If you could Etude on top of other buffs, it would be feasable.

Likewise, if the change was applied to a defensive song (say, Carol) then although you wouldn't be keeping the Carol up 24/7 like before, you would still be getting back an extra song on top of the Carol. And like I said, in many cases you don't really need the Carol up 24/7, you only need it when certain attacks are going to happen.

That would certainly make those types of songs more attractive. But increasing the stacking limit directly increases the power of BRD. I hope you agree it is not an underpowered job, just one some people find boring to play. Unbalancing it in the pursuit of more interesting gameplay is not necessarily a step in a positive direction.

Two general purpose buffs, a specific resist buff (or one element and one status?) and a short-term buff, per player per bard? (Even that doesn't rescue Minne and Mambo, if they're not currently worth using even with Pianissimo.) Seems a bit much.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Armando

Yes! Let's increase song redundancy and improve SAM!

Strike 2.

Read between the lines. I was using SAM as an example since it arguably gets the most out of any other job from piling on STR. Being able to jack a BLM's INT by 20 or more would be insane O.O;

[Armando]

But none of that is a BRD problem - the same stat hierarchy applies whether a BRD is present or not. The fact that some stats are more important leads to people asking BRDs to buff the more important stats and not the less important stats.

It's not fair to absolve BRD from the blame. BRD is partially to blame because of the quantities by which stats get buffed by their songs. If Madrigals gave less Accuracy and Minuets gave more Attack, the status quo might be different. If Marches added up to less than 21% Haste, the song status quo might be different. But it does add up to 21%, and that opens up a whole world of imbalances. The fact that it can be Soul Voiced sure doesn't help.

Haste and Acc certainly are useful, but it's possible to focus excessively on them and get pwned by a more balanced stat build, especially at lower levels where mobs aren't quite so pathetic relative to players.

If your Attack is in the shitter, odds are so is your hit rate. Level difference counts more than almost anything else, and screws both areas of your damage simultaneously.

But I honestly don't see people in a situation where they're in danger of hitting for 0's unless they're deliberately being stupid. With all the DD gear that's available today, and Marinara Pizza (which is already as effective as Rice Dumplings by ~Lv.15 and gives as much Acc as Jack-o-Lanterns by ~25), you would have to be fighting Lv.+12 crabs or beetles. And if you're doing that you deserve a slap to the face.

Two general purpose buffs, a specific resist buff (or one element and one status?) and a short-term buff, per player per bard? (Even that doesn't rescue Minne and Mambo, if they're not currently worth using even with Pianissimo.) Seems a bit much.

There are alternatives. It could be designed such that there's only room for a 3rd song - can't Etude with a Carol and vice-versa. Alternatively, could make it such that there can only be one Etude and Carol on the player, no matter how many BRDs, period. Or both - only one temporary song per player no matter what.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Armando

But I honestly don't see people in a situation where they're in danger of hitting for 0's unless they're deliberately being stupid. With all the DD gear that's available today, and Marinara Pizza (which is already as effective as Rice Dumplings by ~Lv.15 and gives as much Acc as Jack-o-Lanterns by ~25), you would have to be fighting Lv.+12 crabs or beetles. And if you're doing that you deserve a slap to the face.

True that... God idk how many times I've been in a PT in the past where we were overhunting and even the BRD or COR couldn't make up for it. As broken (let's not kid ourselves, BRD is rather OP but no one complains) as the job is, it can't fix stupid.

[Etra]

So, about those summoners...

[Malacite]

Yes what of them?

[Cid2020]

This thread is nothing but a b#@ch fest.. wish they would just close it already. Its not even on topic anymore.

[Aksannyi]

You must be new here lol.

Most threads start out on track and slowly derail. This one is a rare exception in that it took a sharp curve away from the original topic.

As for bitchfests, we're very opinionated here, so it happens a lot. And there wasn't any outright flaming or mean-spirited arguing - in fact, this thread pretty much had died completely - which would really warrant a closing.

[Darkhound]

Yep.. it ended up talking aboutg something else!

But oh well.. let u hope that in the next patch we get our avatars