[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Eiyoko

I don't see what all the fuss is about with Summoner. I think it operates just fine. Sure, SMN could probably use a boost, but it doesn't need anything drastic if you ask me.

As for the initial suggestion, it's good that SMN will get more to do at once in a small amount of time, but the downside is if we decide to use a good number of those abilities in a small amount of time, we can pretty much kiss our MP goodbye.

Also, an avatar is still considered a "pet". If you made the avatar too powerful, then to balance the job then the summoner itself would likely have to be weakened in some way or another...otherwise you're basically having two players for the price of one, and that'd be pretty unfair.

Also, considering the AI control SMN has over its pets compared to other jobs, I think the tradeoff works just fine.

With the recent addition of Magic Mortar and the wtfpwn that SCH has now become, I don't think it would be terribly unreasonable to let SMN's use their pacts more often.

I think the best way to do it would be with more pact categories similar to how DNC has it's various dances divided up. You give each pact it's own timer, but also a timer on the pact menu (like how Divine Waltz and Healing Waltz have different recasts that will affect when you can do another Waltz)

And if a SMN wants to be stupid and blow all their MP in a blaze of pacts, that's their problem. I also think that any enmity accumulated through the avatar should get transfered to the SMN when it goes away (at least half anyway) thus putting yet more emphasis on keeping said avatar in good condition as opposed to their current expendable status.

[Kitalrez]

No, that last one is a terrible idea. Being an aggro free DD/heal/buffer is our ace in the hole right now. You take that away and no one wants to play this job at the end. I realize you haven't leveled this job since you gave up in frustration, but don't nerf our endgame to make the journey to it easier. If you want to make it easier to level, great, but keep the reward for actually leveling intact or you defeat the purpose of doing it.

If you change anything about us, maybe let us keep the ability to buff AE style in alliances like we do in campaign. I'd like to be at the point where an LS wants me to come on SMN, and they get annoyed when none of us show. Give me the ability to haste or earthen ward 18 people at once, make me useful and wanted on my main job. Right now, we have the ability to make long hard fights like Horns of War trivially easy with avatars. Most hnmls's don't realize this yet, but it's growing. That ability hinges on us not building up mass aggro while everyone else rests or debuffs, if we lose that ability, there's just one less thing for us to do later but play cure tank again. If they think they have to kite Kaiser Behemoth for that? Hell, I won't be called upon to BP him to death... someone sees I miss 3 of those due to kiting range and I'll be lucky if I get asked to ever use Pred Claws in a raid again.

[Malacite]

Hey, I'm just tossing every idea I can come up with on how to balance out the powering up of the job ><; it's not easy.

[MrMageo]

Hmmm I don't see the job needing a balancing f power up's. To be perfectly honest I think SMN is about as "fixed" as it will be. Lets look at some things here.

Self Skill Chains

SMN is one of the few jobs that has the aility to preform a self SC, Through the use of Staff WS and a BP, with an A- in Staff a SMN should have little to no trouble building TP on party mobs. This extra little amount of damae can boost a parties chains, or kill faster solo. (SAM,BLU,DNC are the only other self SC jobs without using a subjob)

Skill Chains

A SMN Has the ability to preform Skill Chains with any job in the game, Using BP's SMN has the power to preform a SC every minute. This is often looked over but the power this provides should not be ignored.

MB's

The ability to Magic Burst other skill chains, nuff said

AoE cures

Able to take care of status ailments use curaga 1 time a minute without the need for DS, Accession and the like, is extremley powerful. The MP cost is pretty friendly if you consider some of these moves are more powerful than their counterparts.

AoE Buffs

The ability to buff the party with blink Stoneskin etc is paramount at times, having an extra layer of protection or haste once a minute is a pretty powerful ability. Again the MP cost is fair considering the MP you have saved from curing by yourself or the other mages.

AoE enfeebles

Slowga, Sleepga, Paraga,. Having these abilities early in the game, means 2 things. You have more powerful debuffs then the RDM, and when used the -ga debuff from slow can not be removed by a self targeting haste buff or spell, pretty powerful I say.

Teir 2-4 Nukes

Teir 2-4 nukes long before even a BLM gets them, while not as powerful, the ability to magic burst with teir 4 @ lvl 60 can not be overlooked its a powerful addition to any party.

BP's

BP's are extremley pwerful when used correctly, they carry the element of the avatar in them, using a Shiva BP on a beetle leaves very impresive numbers. Yes there are some crap BP's, but there are alot of cap spells and abilities in this game the way around it, DONT USE IT. Properly used in conjunction with WS's brings on a SC. Properly used can enfeeb a mob in a pinch (thunderspark= paralyze)

Mal I dont think you respect all that a SMN brings to the table. The job is not defined by what it subs it is defined by how you use it. If you don't bother to time your BP usage for a SC, then yes your not producing to your full potential, If your not producing to your full potential then your not playing the job adn if your not playing the job you may as well quit. (Oh you did)

Prsonally when I build a party I dont expect a SMN to be main heal, I expect them to do what their job can do, which includes heal. Just like RDM I dont expect them to main heal, but they better toss some cures out because it is part of the job. The definition you claim to be rampant about SMN's main healing, is false, it is what you make of it. You can do more in a party then just main heal, if u dont like to main heal you can not party. Just like the RDM's who bitch and moan about main healing and dont do anything about it, either dont main heal, or prove you can do other things while main healing.

SMN is going to see in the future about the same amount of updates RDM and MNK have seen in the last 4 years. With the exception of new avatars. SMN has really come into its own this update, and has more capability to do any of those above things more often in a party now. Ifact im going to level my SMN right now just looking at all the stuff it can do, its kinda like a RDM who uses avatars, i think i might like it.

[Malacite]

I'm going to have to completely disagree with you. Avatars totally suck for DoT leading up to 75, and pacts are way too limited. There are several that need fixing (Well, Rolling Thunder finally became decent but there are still others that suck) and you can not deny the fact that it is terribly inefficient to keep avatars out for very long.

I think the best thing for SE to do is to further divide the blood pacts. Separate them into 4 categories: Physical Offensive, Healing, Enhancing and Magical Offensive. If they handled them in the same manner as DNC's dances then I think we'd be set. It'd be nice if we could use the lv 70 BP's for a chain and then MB off that chain with one of the merit pacts.

That would obviously eat up a crapload of MP but it'd be fun and a nice chunk of spike damage. And as I've said a million times, god forbid we use blood pacts to main heal instead of cures.

That's what it boils down to for me. More use of the avatars and their powers, not /WHM or /SCH's.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Malacite

That's what it boils down to for me. More use of the avatars and their powers, not /WHM or /SCH's.

Zillionth Time, what subjob is going to trump /WHM and /SCH?

If you're really desparate, I could point out /COR offers Pet Attack and Pet Accuracy bonuses, but Drachen Roll (which gives Pet MAB+ and MAcc+) is well out of the reach of the subjob.

Aside from COR, there's RDM and BLU and - guess what? - those subjobs can cure, too. There's really no way out until SE makes another subjob that enhances a pet user's abilities. But then, this isn't a problem that PUP, DRG or BST need to worry about. It shouldn't be a problem for SMN, either, but then, they're the ones living in denial about why they're invited. Some just accept it and make it to 75 and reach the peak of thier potential, some just refuse to.

[MrMageo]

Originally Posted by Malacite

I think the best thing for SE to do is to further divide the blood pacts. Separate them into 4 categories: Physical Offensive, Healing, Enhancing and Magical Offensive. If they handled them in the same manner as DNC's dances then I think we'd be set. It'd be nice if we could use the lv 70 BP's for a chain and then MB off that chain with one of the merit pacts.

So you want cake and eat it too....

This is ridiculously broken on so many levels. If i am understanding correctly you want seperate timers for cures, buff, BP's and nukes. How is that any different then having the BP and WP on seperate timers for each avatar. Instead of needing to switvh out your avatars you can just leave one out cure, buff, BP nuke, cure buff, BP, nuke. Thats even more ovepowered then your first thought.

All SMN needs is a way to negate the MP cost to them by using their avatars. Oh wait they got it already Siphon and at 70 sublimation. I dont see how you could want anything else. SCH has just hopped to #2 in MP regeneration, id they choose to use /SCH.

You want better BP's, what about the jobs that have Junk WS's, how often do you see flat blade tossed out, or wasp sting. All jobs have semi usless things that come with them, SMN is no different.

You stopped leveling your SMN @ 30 according to what others have said, so how do you know how it works later in the game Have you ever seen or bursted with a teir 4 @ lvl 60, 10 lvls before BLM gets them. Have you ever used your avatar to SC with somone so the BLM/RDM/SCH/PUP could burst off it.

Did you forget that this is a party game and all jobs are designed to help the party in their own way. SMN is no different. Do you know why 99% of SMN's sub whm. Its not because they arent allowed to sub anything else, its because they can support their party still while the avatars BP and WP are down. /WHM and /SCH does define the job, it makes the more effective for the party. If I was in a party where the SMN didnt use its BP's and WP's and only cured I would boot them and get a whm. I dont invite jobs based off the sub. I invite based off what they can do. If a ranger came RNG/WHM, he would still be pulling and if he didnt booted. If a RDM came RDM/WAR, hed still be enfeeblin, hasting, refreshing if he didnt booted. If a NIN came NIN/WAR and dosent use all his spells, booted. ee what I am saying, in none of those situations does the subjob come into it. A SMN could come SMN/WHM, but if they didnt use BP's, WP's theyd be gone.

A subjob does not define a job, ever. It merley enhances what that job can already do. I noticed earlier you said NIN/WAR is defined by its subjob. You are wrong. I have been in several parties where I had a main tank NIN/BLM. They have held hate as well as or better than most NIN/WAR i have partied with. Provoke is a tool for hate not a job defining ability. PLD's dont need to /WAR they do so to have another set of tools to hold hate. RDM dosent need to /WHM or /BLM they do because they provide another set of tools to support. and SMN dosent need to /WHM or /SCH but they do so they have another set of tools to support with.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by MrMageo

This is ridiculously broken on so many levels. If i am understanding correctly you want seperate timers for cures, buff, BP's and nukes. How is that any different then having the BP and WP on seperate timers for each avatar.

Extremely. Separate timers for each avatar would allow you to cycle through the avatars spamming the lv 70 BP's.

[MrMageo]

and spaming everything an avatar can do every minutes isnt lvl smn youll see why you cant have them out all the time youll see why you get a minutes between timers

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by MrMageo

Hmmm I don't see the job needing a balancing f power up's. To be perfectly honest I think SMN is about as "fixed" as it will be. Lets look at some things here.

Skill Chains

A SMN Has the ability to preform Skill Chains with any job in the game, Using BP's SMN has the power to preform a SC every minute. This is often looked over but the power this provides should not be ignored.

MB's

The ability to Magic Burst other skill chains, nuff said

Maybe with the recent adjustment to SC resist rates, they will make a comeback; otherwise this point is moot in most parties, unfortunately. Would be cool in a static though, with players who don't go "110% tp, eww, must spam ws immediately".

AoE cures

Able to take care of status ailments use curaga 1 time a minute without the need for DS, Accession and the like, is extremley powerful. The MP cost is pretty friendly if you consider some of these moves are more powerful than their counterparts.

Agreed with the exception of Whispering Wind, which costs a crapload of mp for no apparent reason. It's weaker than spring water and doesn't remove debuffs, so why does it cost so much? Spring Water and HR2 are damn nice though (at least, from observing SMNs using them - I'm not that high level with it myself yet.)

AoE Buffs

The ability to buff the party with blink Stoneskin etc is paramount at times, having an extra layer of protection or haste once a minute is a pretty powerful ability. Again the MP cost is fair considering the MP you have saved from curing by yourself or the other mages.

Also, Fenrir and Diabolos, if you have them, have some buffs that are hard or impossible to get otherwise. Not quite bard caliber buffs, but then, bards don't have 1000 mp and a hate free spike of several hundred damage every minute.

AoE enfeebles

Slowga, Sleepga, Paraga,. Having these abilities early in the game, means 2 things. You have more powerful debuffs then the RDM, and when used the -ga debuff from slow can not be removed by a self targeting haste buff or spell, pretty powerful I say.

I haven't seen much use for these. Their AOE-ness is normally pointless because you're only fighting one enemy at a time; if you do have several, you can't use thunderspark (what I assume you meant by 'paraga') because it will wake sleepers.

Hate free sleep might come in handy, though. IIRC Shiva's sleep is actually ice based, which makes a difference for resists on some mobs (bats come to mind).

Some attack BPs have an enfeebling side effect, too - particularly Tail Whip's gravity, which is another eva down that stacks with Fenrir's (which, IIRC, is a ward, so you actually can use both together at the start of a fight).

Teir 2-4 Nukes

Teir 2-4 nukes long before even a BLM gets them, while not as powerful, the ability to magic burst with teir 4 @ lvl 60 can not be overlooked its a powerful addition to any party.

Agreed, except it would be really nice if they got tier 3 at 40ish (for suitable cost and effectiveness), there's an excessively long gap between the level 10 and level 60 magical BPs. Oh well, at least the level 10s are cheap - you might not match a BLM's raw damage, but you'll probably beat their damage/mp even after counting the summon and perp costs. (And the BLM will get hate for his own nuke.)

BP's

BP's are extremley pwerful when used correctly, they carry the element of the avatar in them, using a Shiva BP on a beetle leaves very impresive numbers. Yes there are some crap BP's, but there are alot of cap spells and abilities in this game the way around it, DONT USE IT. Properly used in conjunction with WS's brings on a SC. Properly used can enfeeb a mob in a pinch (thunderspark= paralyze)

You're right that some BPs are very good, but I disagree with what you said about the weak ones: you *can* just not use them, but they're still a flaw in the job. I don't support the kind of radical changes Mal wants to make to SMN, but I do think some of the gimped BPs should be improved - partly to enhance one of the true strengths of the job, which is its versatility, and partly because I don't like seeing cool ideas fail for lack of numerical effectiveness.

A couple of other minor points:

- SMN can choose whether to do physical or magical damage. This is helpful against ahriman/pot magic shields, monsters with high physical defense but no magic defense or vice versa... basically, there is no wrong mob for SMN the way bones are for DRG/RNG/THF, ahrimans (or colibri) for BLM or slimes for MNK. SMN can even enfeeble a monster with magic shield up, by using one of the physical BPs with an enfeebling side effect.

- Different BPs have different physical damage types. Most actual physical DD jobs don't have that kind of choice, or have to change to a distinctly weaker weapon to get it.

- SMN's nuking isn't biased toward any particular element. If you're fighting an orc, their water spells are just as strong as their thunder or ice ones. And that pattern holds at all levels.

- IIRC, blood pacts can't be imitated by colibris even when they have the same name as a spell (like tier 4 nukes). This is an advantage for SMN over traditional mages.

(Flames deleted - I don't think Mal is the *only* person to want this kind of change to smn anyway.)

SMN is going to see in the future about the same amount of updates RDM and MNK have seen in the last 4 years. With the exception of new avatars. SMN has really come into its own this update, and has more capability to do any of those above things more often in a party now. Ifact im going to level my SMN right now just looking at all the stuff it can do, its kinda like a RDM who uses avatars, i think i might like it.

It's on my short list for next main, too. So many cool jobs, so little time...

[Malacite]

w/e, honestly to hell with you all. Everyone's always coming down on me saying every little thing I suggest (keeping in mind this is all speculation to begin with as SE has the final say in everything) is broken and shooting it down.

Why you people support the current dependency on SMN's SJ I'll never understand. Clearly you all find it just boatloads of fun to join a party only to cast 1 or two avatar buffs here and there and not really have any sort of fun with them whatsoever.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

You don't bring any logic or comprehension of job/game balance to the table. You refuse to address the subjob issue and instead just tell us SMN shouldn't be defined by subjob.

Guess what? SMN isn't the only job thats limited like this. NIN and PLD are somewhat restricted by party and alliance definitions and thus limited to certain subjobs. You can't level NIN as a DD, its just not tolerated by the community, you're seen as a tank period and there is no getting out of it. What about those that wanted to play NIN as a DD? Where's your argument for them?

Or is it because you see NIN as a tank and don't disagree with it being one?

Finally, you can't dream up a fix without directly stealing ideas from other jobs or wrecking the balance between jobs. That's why every little idea you have gets torn to bits.

[MrMageo]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Why you people support the current dependency on SMN's SJ I'll never understand. Clearly you all find it just boatloads of fun to join a party only to cast 1 or two avatar buffs here and there and not really have any sort of fun with them whatsoever.

SMN isnt dependent on the subjob it chooses. It is one of the few RoZ jobs that are fairly self reliant in what it can do. People chose/Choose to sub whm because it offered the SMN a way to additionally support the party. People choose to /SCH because it offers them additional ways to conserve MP. /SCH allows you to keep your SMN out for 2MP less then the normal cost. Making More summons clser to being "free". Allowing them to assist the PT through melee, even solo a undesired link until the party can fight it. If you look above the healing, (which supports the party) SMN offers alot more to the party outside of the little bag of tricks BP's bring.

In my carear I have seen SMN's sub many different things other than /WHM, I have seen BLM,NIN,BLU all for different reasons, its not a dependency on subjob it is a preferance on subjob. As BBQ said NIN and PLD are limited to the choices, however they are choosing WAR as a sub for more hate control tools to better support the party

[Malacite]

Can a mod please just close this thread? I'm really not interested in debating this anymore.

[Mhurron]

So stop posting. Others might want to continue the topic.