Elemental Syphon

[Kitalrez]

Ok, looking at the numbers, were I to raise summoning magic 2 points to the cap for lvl 73, I'd be at 259 skill. Using my torque, earring and ring, I can get that to 279. Assuming I use Elemental Siphon on the spirit of the day, I'll get back about 279 mp. Not bad. Here's what I can do with that.

@73 SMN, a spirit costs 18 mp a tick, or roughly 18mp/3 seconds.
@259 skill for 73 smn, or the lvl cap for summoning magic, it'll cast roughly once every 45 seconds. I'm 20 above cap, putting me at 39 seconds. Since I'm using it on the correct day for ES purposes, this will reduce another 3 seconds to 36.
So... 36 seconds go by and eat up around 216 mp normally, (I use austere robe, evoker's ring and HQ staff to get this down to 156 mp). At this point it will start to cast a spell.
If I hit /assault immediately upon seeing the casting notice, another 36 seconds will go by before it casts a 2nd spell. This uses up a 2nd 210 (156) mp. At this point, if you had just the 10 mp to cast the spell and siphon when you started, you would be out of mp or close to it. So, basically you get 2 spells off. If they were both IVs or AMs, that might not be bad. If it was Rasp and Slow, you're pretty much screwed. Also, he can be interrupted mid-cast.

Let's now assume you're at full merits for elemental perp and lvl 75 capped skill.

75=269 skill.
Full merit=13mp/tick spirit perp
*Conceivably at 75 SMN you could stand at least an even chance of getting the following gear*
Nashira's Gages from Limbus: -1 perp
Evoker's Ring: -1 perp, +10 summoning magic
Evoker's Doublet: -3 perp/day (For our purposes this will be always active) +1 version doesn't do anything for spirits over regular.
HQ staff of the day: -3 perp
Summoning Earring: +3 skill
Summoning Torque: +7 skill
Evoker's Pigaches +1: -1 perp, (normal doesn't have this).
Evoker's Horn: +5 skill
Summoner's Spats: -5 casting time for spirits.

Total: -9 perp, +25.
So, you've got 4 perp/tick with full merits, and 294 skill. Skill reduces your cast timer by 8 seconds under this setup, dropping it to 32 when you factor in the -5 from spats.
10 mp to summon... ES for ~300 mp.
32 seconds go by, costing you 40 mp in perp.
Cast 1
next 32 seconds barring an AM = 40mp.
Cast 2
next 32 seconds. 40 mp
Cast 3
next 32. 40 mp
Cast 4
next 32. 40 mp
Cast 5.
You probably have barely enough mp to complete this cast before spirit goes down to 0 mp.

So, 5 spells... perhaps six if your spirit is summoned while you have aggro on you, since this halves the time to the first cast. 5 AMs might be nice. 5 Rasps would probably suck.

[Omniblast]

It's a craptacular convert. That's all it is. I would have liked the timer every 2 minutes atleast. Bah.

[IfritnoItazura]

It's a craptacular convert. That's all it is. I would have liked the timer every 2 minutes atleast. Bah.

Huh?

As Mithra RDM75 on mostly AF and AH gear, my Convert yields ~900 MP if I stretch MP to the last twenty or so. (Less, if I want a little more HP post-Convert.) This new SMN job ability apparently can gives~300 MP per use, without the damage to HP bar, every 5 minutes.

Convert without merit is 10 minutes in recast. In that time, a SMN can recover ~600 MP. You have summoning cost for the spirit, while I have drop a Cure IV and maybe an additional Cure III, situation depending.

It may not be as good as Convert, but sure is not shabby.

[Pteryx]

It may not be as good as Convert, but sure is not shabby.

And it's timed to work once a chain, for when they finally fix the party type balance. And it's based on actually summoning, something SMN could stand to have more excuses to do.

I'm satisfied with this as a significant step in the right direction. SMN's not fixed, but it's better, and now has two subs to boot. -- Pteryx

[Vatic]

I wil agreee with the statment that smn is not fixed.

Even tho its a new ability, I dont think it is ballanced.

I am a Taru, and my SMN is lvl 56, at the moment in party setup I have 989 MP. If I change 2 equips I have, I then have 1040 MP, at lvl 56. I am not finished with getting my equips, in I am expleacting to be adding about 40 MP to both those figuers.

and this current with full smn magic equips I get +14 ontop of my capped 183 I get 160 MP is back. To me thats more like a 6th of my MP Pool.

Other races would have smaller mp pools than me with exactly same equips, and get the same about of MP back at my lvl.

My point is, to me at the moment I am getting 1/6 of me mp back, while for other races, they could be benfiting more from it, by having a smaller MP pool, because they will be getting up to 1/5 of there mp pool back.

[Feenicks]

It helps, that's the way I see it.

The primary tip to being a good mage, in my opinion, is to conserve MP usage wherever you can. Don't waste MP and you'll be much better off. For me, Elemental Siphon is a way to relax the amount of conservation you have to do and gives you more room to achieve a little more as SMN.

[IfritnoItazura]

Other races would have smaller mp pools than me with exactly same equips, and get the same about of MP back at my lvl.

OK... So everyone with the same gears and skills gets the same MP back. That's ... unfair? How?

My point is, to me at the moment I am getting 1/6 of me mp back, while for other races, they could be benfiting more from it, by having a smaller MP pool, because they will be getting up to 1/5 of there mp pool back.

Well, the solution is obviously to reduce the amount of MP Tarutaru has, so the job ability will return ~1/5 of your MP as well.

[MrMageo]

lol take away my MP and ill bite your knee caps.

the way i see it XXX MP is still XXX MP no mater what MP pool it goes into. Its better than not having anything at all, right?

[Vatic]

You are right that, that any MP back is a good thing.

But this point I was trying to make, is I think that ablility should have worked off a percentage of the smns mp pool, rather than a direct translation of the smn skill magic.

Like for instance, the abilitiy on the same day at element would give like 20% MP back, and for every skill over the cap, you get like and extra .5% on top.

If it is the wrong day, then there is a 5% reduction, or something like that.

But to the case of lowering the MP pool, not going to happen, most of my parties I have to main heal, the more MP I have to manage, means more possible chains for the party.

[Saren]

Other races would have smaller mp pools than me with exactly same equips, and get the same about of MP back at my lvl.

My point is, to me at the moment I am getting 1/6 of me mp back, while for other races, they could be benfiting more from it, by having a smaller MP pool, because they will be getting up to 1/5 of there mp pool back.

Nonononono they aren't benefitting more than you they are benefitting the same as you. It doesn't matter what proportion of your mp pool you are getting back what matters is the amount you get back. Two smn in the same gear can do exactly the same things with 100 or 200 or 300mp.

But this point I was trying to make, is I think that ablility should have worked off a percentage of the smns mp pool, rather than a direct translation of the smn skill magic.

Why? Why should a taru smn get more mp back than a Galka one? Also, summoning skill is very central to how a lot of the job works so it makes sense that the ability be based off skill. Just because convert works off a percentage doesn't mean anyything else necessarily should, rdm is a 'jack of all trades' both job wise and skill wise (barring enfeebling skill), smn is gyroscopically based around summoning skill.

[Omniblast]

ok I take back my previous comment a little bit as I had more of a chance to play it last night.

SMN/SCH was partied up with me last night, they would do Elemental Siphon, and Sublimation. Every 4~5 minutes (Sublimation needs about 4 minutes to work depending on your hp) Sublimation gave back roughly 184~194 mp, and Elemental Siphon gave back roughly 261-284 mp for them.
They didn't rest much except when all the imps were dead and kept their MP up through out the time we were fighting. It wasn't a bad Combination now that I think about it a bit.

Need 4 more levels of SCH and I'm done for sub. XD

[Sabaron]

So... Let's look at SMN/SCH.

Your siphon returns roughly as much MP as you have skill, so you're now getting at 75, 270ish MP every 5 minutes that's equivalent to...

270/5 = 54 mp/minute
54/60 = 0.9 mp/second
0.9 * 3 = 2.7 mp/tick....

You're 0.3 off of an extra refresh spell that doesn't cost anything Come on now... That's awesome.

SMNs are always saying how they would like more auto-refresh so they could keep their pets out... Well.... There it friggin' is!

Now... let's add /SCH's Sublimation when we don't have a RDM...

A Hume SMN has a base HP at level 75 of about 890. Sublimation can convert up to 25% of that into MP...

890 * 0.25 = 222.5

It takes 890 * 3/8 = 333.75 seconds (5.56 minutes).

You have to cast a Cure III to fix it which costs 46mp so we net...

222 - 46 = 176mp every 333 seconds or:

176/333*3 = 1.6mp/tick

So an extra 1/2 Refresh.

With the setup: RDM + BRD + SMN/WHM, you'll be getting 3 (Refresh) + 3 (Ballad) + 1 (Auto-refresh) + 2.7 (Siphon) = 9.7mp/tick or 10.7mp/tick in ToAU/WoTG. Let me make that bigger...

With BRD+RDM: 10.7 MP Per Tick

Without the RDM... BRD + SMN/SCH, you'll be getting 3 (Ballad) + 1 (Auto-refresh) + 2.7 (Siphon) + 1.6 (Sublimation) = 8.3 base, 9.3 ToAU/WotG

With BRD: 9.3 MP Per Tick

With just the RDM... BRD + SMN/SCH, you'll be getting 3 (Refresh) + 1 (Auto-refresh) + 2.7 (Siphon) = 6.7 base, 7.7 ToAU/WotG

With RDM: 7.7 MP Per Tick

All by your lonesome, SMN/SCH, you get 1 (Auto-refresh) + 2.7 (Siphon) + 1.6 (Sublimation) = 5.3 base, 6.3 ToAU/WotG

Solo: 6.3 MP Per Tick

Should we give SMN the ability Auto-Refresh VII too?

Let's do more...

If you happen to be using Sublimation, you can't rest. Why not whip out a pet?

[Omniblast]

While your at it, add in the cost of Regen II instead of the cost of casting Cure 3 and you've saved 10 MP. Don't forget the reduced cost of having Light Arts on as well. So 33 mp vs. 42mp or so.

My party setup was basically 4 summoners doing imps, so we didn't care too much about having down time. Though we did too many risky pulls and got a bit cocky.

[Thoris]

i would love if they can bump up spirits ai a bit. Make it like the pups blm head. I would also like to have better acc and attack for the avatars. Or a Enspell for them.

[Pai Pai Master]

So I haven't been paying attention...someone break it down for me. SMN/SCH is very workable now, it seems? But not for main-healing?