[Silent Howler]

Alright, SMN seems like a pretty hot topic. And this is the big o' thread for it. To start things off, let's take a look at a quote concerning SMN.

SUMMONER: One observation the development team has noticed has been the tendency of Summoners to only cast an avatar when they need a specific spell (i.e. Aerial Armor), and then to release them. The team would like the Summoner to leave the avatars out longer. To achieve this it's considering giving the Summoner more MP, although in reality a lower perpetuation cost might be more effective. The duration of Summoner-derived party buffs will depend -- finally -- on the level of a Summoner's summoning magic skill. The FFXI team is planning to add more abilities for avatars. There are no plans to add Bahamut as an avatar. The reason for this is because if the developers were to add Bahamut as a summonable avatar, they would have to reduce his strength considerably, and the team didn't want to do that. New avatars will, however, be added in the future.

http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?pa...=3&cId=3148759


That seems like a good idea right? Lowering perpetuation cost for avatars. But then I started thinking about it...

Bahamut's Staff or a HQ Elemental Staff (Apollo's Staff) reduces the cost by 3.
Penance Robe reduces the cost by 2.
Nashira Gages reduces the cost by 1.
Evoker's Ring reduces the cost by 1.
Evoker's pigaches +1 reduces the cost by 1.

And that's some of the basic equipment for lowering the cost. Summoner's Doublet and Summoner's Horn can also reduce the cost by 3 each, but they are dependant on day/weather conditions. And let's not forget about Carbuncle Mitts.

So not counting those last two Summoner pieces or the mitts, it adds up to -6. Factor in SMN's auto-refresh and throw in a Yagudo drink for Refresh +3. Heck you can already get a free Carby even without the mitts. Fenrir would only be 2mp/tick, the other avatars would be 4mp/tick. And again, this isn't even counting Summoner's Doublet or Summoner's Horn. At higher level, SMN can do just fine.

But let's look at that again, "at higher level" SMN can do just fine.

See now, there's your problem. It's not the avatar's perpetuation cost, it's the lack of equipment to do anything about it at lower levels. Sure, there's Carbuncle Mitts, but you have to defeat a lvl 70 NM to get them... But what about the Dragon Staff? Oh right, you have to win against The Wyrmking Descends... Honestly, unless you did these before with a higher job or could get some people to help you with these, you're not going to get anything to help you with the perpetuation cost until you reach lvl 50.

So, there are two things I have thought of to help with this. One or the other could work. The first would be an Exclusive item that could be an additional reward to the lvl 20 solo avatar fights. For example, "Ifrit's Ring. Ifrit perpetuation cost -1. Lv. 20 SMN" There would be one for each of the six elemental avatars.

And as much as I like that idea, I know it would be a pain for SMNs to carry six rings around with them. So I came up with an alternative idea. It would be an enchantment item, probably similar to the Mana Cloak except the enchantment would be "Avatar perpetuation cost -1" (The item should be either a cloak, gloves, or a ring. And the lvl requirement could be 21+). I don't know if it should be a normal store item though.






So there's a thought from me. But remember, there's more to discuss than just what I've been talking about. Like for example, how do you feel about not having Bahamut summonable? Do you think the SMN group two merits are worth it, or should they be made into normal Blood Pacts and give us new merits? Are the Astral Flow Blood Pacts worth it at higher levels or should they be changed?

[Taskmage]

I haven't really thought this through so don't come down on me too hard, but what if summoners were just allowed to rest for mp while they had an avatar out? It seems to me that the drawback of not being able to rest is greater than the drawback of perpetuation cost, but I don't see why that additional caveat is required.

[Malacite]

Even with all the perp-down you can get, I believe celestial avatars and diabolos still take at least 8 MP.

[Satori]

I've not had much experience with smn but I'd love to see the magus sisters in the game,

while most are drooling of the thought of Odin and Alexander, I'd rather summon 3 at once lol. but thats just me being greedy as usual lol.

[Silent Howler]

Originally Posted by Taskmage

I haven't really thought this through so don't come down on me too hard, but what if summoners were just allowed to rest for mp while they had an avatar out? It seems to me that the drawback of not being able to rest is greater than the drawback of perpetuation cost, but I don't see why that additional caveat is required.

Well, if it were like that then everyone would spend the whole time resting except when they need to use a blood pact. And I'm guessing S-E didn't like that. But here they say they don't like it when everyone only summons for a particular blood pact and then unsummons.

Make up your mind S-E!

But either way, you basically get the same result. However, if they make it so each blood pact had a timer on it's own rather than one timer for the whole catagory, you might see something different.

[Silent Howler]

Originally Posted by Malacite

Even with all the perp-down you can get, I believe celestial avatars and diabolos still take at least 8 MP.

If this is accurate and you factor in all the perp-down, it does get pretty low.

[Clever Ninja]

They honestly just need to redo the scaling of Perpetuation cost. It hurts low level SMN's so much that they're good for nothing but spamming Cure's. They need to make the cost lower for low level SMN's, then just raise it for when all the good equipment in the 50's and 60's kicks in.

[Malacite]

Seriously. At level 1, Carby and Fenrir are 2 MP. No biggie. The celestial avtars are severn and Diabolos is 3 and quickly surpasses the celestials in cost. They're not even all that stonger than carbuncle either, so WTF? (Fenrir remains the strongest I find)

Seriously wtf SE? Either drop the perpetuation costs or better yet raise avatar performance based on skill level and the avatar itself (making them a little more unique apart from being separate elements)

For example, Ifrit would be a heavy DD type, while Titan would have high DEF VIT ad HP and thus tank best out of the avatars.

This would help add an entirely new dimension to SMN, and possibly get them into more PT roles (Having a SMN use Titan to tank mobs would be really, really cool IMO)

[Silent Howler]

Originally Posted by Clever Ninja

They honestly just need to redo the scaling of Perpetuation cost. It hurts low level SMN's so much that they're good for nothing but spamming Cure's. They need to make the cost lower for low level SMN's, then just raise it for when all the good equipment in the 50's and 60's kicks in.

They kind of do that already, actually.

Looking at the avatars, other than Carbuncle and Fenrir, it starts off with: lvl 1, 3mp/tick. lvl 10, 4mp/tick. lvl 19, 5mp/tick. The level gab in between increases in cost is 9. Looking at the later end of the scale: lvl 68, 11mp/tick. lvl 71, 12mp/tick. lvl 74, 13mp/tick. Now the cost goes up every 3 levels.

[Akashimo]

Originally Posted by Malacite

This would help add an entirely new dimension to SMN, and possibly get them into more PT roles (Having a SMN use Titan to tank mobs would be really, really cool IMO)

Thong man tank {Do you need it?}
Seriously though, I like the idea of boosts based on them.
Based on the elemental defuffs, and general elemetals spell line and random stuff to noticed

Ifirit = STR/ATK
Ramuh = DEX/Crits
Titan = VIT/DEF
Garuda = AGI/EVA/Haste
Levithan = MND/Cures?
Shiva = INT/Paralyze?
Carbuncle = chr?
Fenrir = Stats/modifiers?
Diabolos = rdm?

[Taskmage]

Originally Posted by Silent Howler

Well, if it were like that then everyone would spend the whole time resting except when they need to use a blood pact. And I'm guessing S-E didn't like that.

That's kinda the way it already is. Unless a smn is using a BP or casting cures, they should be sitting. If they were allowed to keep their avatar out, they'd have to jump up to assault each pull in addition to that. The rest of the time they'd basically be meditating to maintain their avatar, and gaining back small amounts of mp they can use for BPs.

Maintaining Fenrir for one minute at level 30 costs 100 mp, which really isn't that much. It's about the same as a blm casting two Water II or a whm casting two Cure III. One solid minute of resting at the same level regains 123 mp. A blm or a whm can cast their two spells and sit for the rest of the minute, or cast, sit for 5 ticks and cast again, and break even on mp. A summoner loses that mp AND the ability to rest, which is basically the same as losing 223 mp for every minute they decide to keep an avatar out instead of resting. At that price avatar melee stops looking anything close to cost-effective.

[Susurrus]

Maybe make them a bit more effective. If the amount of melee damage they do can at least match most DDs, then maybe it would be a bit more worthwhile to hold them out.

[Thoris]

i 2nd that, make there attacks stronger. Come on carby would attack a Easy prey and do 8 dmg when ur lv 10. That just sucks. They need to make them stronger as melee stronger and lower mp cost

[Malacite]

Avatars used to get stronger against lower leveled opponents like players do but SE changed that back in 2004 I believe. Also, there's actually a set damage cap for their melee (I think it's arounf 160, at least for carbuncle).

It doesn't matter if the avatar scores a critial hit either, their regular melee will never exceed the preset cap.

[Rain_Blade]

Well, I feel like I repeat myself in a lot of threads like this, but meh it's my choice posting again anyhow. Well, in my opinion, Summoners have 3 setbacks. Perpetuation, Blood Pact Timers, and MP cost. Honestly, I can deal with the Blood Pact timers (except in Ballista). The perpetuation and MP cost only bothers me because we have BOTH. I feel like we should have one or the other. I know SE wants to balance the jobs like making each job have advantages and disadvantages, but sometimes I feel like they may go too far in really trying to balance things out in a way it's actually hurting the job.