[Auron517]

Now, I've partied with a fair share of Summoners, but I realized that they're the only job that I'm clueless about. The leader will usually invite a Summoner to main heal since there's no WHM seeking, or if I join a Party with a summoner already in it, they usually just have their Avatar out meeleing the whole time.

I'm guilty of inviting summoners just to heal also, but that's because I don't know what else they can do. Ive heard that SMN damage dealing really kicks off 70+, but I doubt i'll be reaching endgame any time soon.

Can any of the SMNs here give me advice on how to utilize Summoners before the higher levels besides just spamming cure?

[WishMaster3K]

As a RDM, I get the pleasure of watching the battle from the background, enfeebling the mob and watching the change it does for the front line, and buffing the Mages so I can monitor them, hence, here are MY thoughts, as a humble RDM.

It is true that SMNs get invited in place of a WHM. And there are things a SMN can do that a WHM can't. Keep in mind that WHMs get awsome spells like Regen3 and Raise2 and 3, in addition to Stona(petrify) and another WHM only status heal.

SMN/WHM can do some healing, sure, but only up to Cure3. But what makes a SMN shine is not if they try to be a gimp WHM, but if they use their avatars for PT buffs to curb damage in place of a WHM's healing.

Titan has a Stoneskin move and a really damaging punch thing
Shiva has Hastega (doesnt last as long as Haste, but i's kool cause it's AOE) and AOE Blink
Leviathin's water heal move is like an AOE Cure 3.5, and heals all status at thtet cost of 99MP(SMNs like to complain about that -.-)
Curbuncle's Healing RubyII is very good, another AOECure2.5

In terms of pt buffs, that's all you see, but I'd like to point out also that Avatar's are very awsome. I've heard that when doing their special moves, they ignore defense, that's why their specials are always in excess of 900+ damage. And when I saw Ramah MB Thunder4 to the Light Skillchain, I almost cried.

So SMNs are very flexible, and if you've only seen them as replacement WHMs, then you haven't seen their full potential since they aren't focus on PT buffs and damage, but PTbuffs and healing.

And this is only what this humble RDM has seen in action. I have never raised SMN nor talked to them, so I don't know all the ins and outs.

[PyrroNeko]

Nice words there, WishMaster. n_n You just changed my thought of getting a SMN earilier by alot.

[Balfree]

Just correcting WishMaster3K on some points, so aspiring SMNs dont get confused:

Garuda does Hastega and AOE Blink, unlike Shiva like he stated.

Also, do not forget Fenrir's buffs: Increase to all stats and Increase to Dodge and Accuracy stats later on.

[Auron517]

I see, SMNs can be used as a support using their Bloodpacts to buff the pt. Can a SMN take the place of a BRD or RDM in a PT as a support as well then?

I also assume that inviting SMNs for damage isn't great until the 70s?

[WishMaster3K]

Haha, sorry Balfree, yeah, it's Garuda, i dun know why I was thinking shiva *_*

As for taking the place? Hmm. . . It's hard to party past the 50s without some form of Refresh, so BRDs and RDMs are generally in High Demand. SMN can take the place of a BLM, in terms of doing damage with Avatar and MBing, but that's only if there is already a RDM or BRD and a WHM.

Just like how a RDM can main heal if there are other jobs around to take some of the slack, a SMN can fit a few roles if there are corresponding jobs around.

[Grissom]

Originally Posted by Auron517

I see, SMNs can be used as a support using their Bloodpacts to buff the pt. Can a SMN take the place of a BRD or RDM in a PT as a support as well then?

I also assume that inviting SMNs for damage isn't great until the 70s?

Our bloodpack are to long for us to be able to replace them and I agree that past 40+ refresh is sort of neccesary.

[Auron517]

Originally Posted by Grissom

Our bloodpack are to long for us to be able to replace them and I agree that past 40+ refresh is sort of neccesary.

Well, then again, there's always juice...but for some reason, people don't like to use those...

[Enialas]

In addendum: what Shiva does do is frost armor. ie Ice Spikesga and while doing minimal damage to attacker, it does have a chance to paralyze the mob.

post 40, w/ a smn trying to take the place of a brd or rdm, {Um...} If smns want Refresh (which they do) despite thier Auto-refresh (self only) which does stack with Refresh. (1mp tic + 3 mp tic) you won't be looking for rdm brd or smn, but rdm or brd. smns despite thier support is in a whole different class than the rdm vs brd support that people want.

/whm is useful if there isn't a whm in the party, which unfortunately usually there isn't, but outside the massive mp pool compared to rdm, a rdm/whm is much better at main heal than smn/whm and a rdm/blm is a little better in the regards of "emergency cures."

when I'm in a pt with a smn, i assist main heal so they can do what makes smns shine, we often keep it balanced so we can both mb. smns have such nice BPs that if they're alloweb by the party can really alleviate damage and help the pt kill the mob quicker.

[Icemage]

Another often-overlooked feature of SMN is that of damage dealer. Lower level attack bloodpacts can form skillchains, and while avatars don't deal the damage a full-time attacker would do, certain abilities such as Shiva's Double Slap deal quite good damage, and can produce level 2 skillchains as well.

While it's rare to see groups that are open-minded enough to let SMNs do this, I do sometimes invite SMNs to be attackers, when I've got an "extra" WS in the party, from the main tank for instance. This allows for a second burstable skillchain, which can greatly speed up kill speed. SMN + NIN + RDM + DD + DD + BLM is a very potent group combination when used properly.

The myth that SMN are only good attackers post-70 should be imploded. It simply is not true since the lower level BP attacks were upgraded.


Icemage

[Jei]

Right now my summoner is 36. Surprisingly I didn't always have to main heal. Sometimes I was asked to and I acutally don't mind. But I got to PT with Nin really often and healing isn't all that needed.

Fenrir's accuracy/evasion debuff has to be the spell I use the most. I got fenrir at level 30 and I instantly felt like I have something useful to do. I almost always start any battle with this.

Blinkga isn't all that great at my level. I have around 400 MP, blinkga takes 100+ mp to call garuda and cast it. Most of the times I was struggling to have enough MP through the whole battle. And with 2/3 melee subbing nin it isn't all that much of an addition. Once I got higher with more MP to spend and mobs hitting harder, I'm sure blinkga will come more into play.

Ifrit's double punch are quite nice. about 50% it will do full damage to IT++ mobs which is around 140-170 at level 36. Almost match THF SATA.

I do MB from time to time if my BP is ready.

[LadyPeorth]

At level 62, I can burst Water IV vs IT+ Orcs (I have near maxed staff skill) for around 567 damage. While it's not BLM burst, it certainly is better than most people give credit for.

[WishMaster3K]

I got mad when Ramah did thunder 4 to a Light SC. Just another SMN that did more MB damage than me.

[Enialas]

Originally Posted by WishMaster3K

I got mad when Ramah did thunder 4 to a Light SC. Just another SMN that did more MB damage than me.

also considering when smns can mb IV spells, we rdms havent gotten III spells yet. I got my first tier III spell recently, guess that means blms moved on to tier IV now lol

[Kitalrez]

Originally Posted by Auron517

I see, SMNs can be used as a support using their Bloodpacts to buff the pt. Can a SMN take the place of a BRD or RDM in a PT as a support as well then?

Actually, yes we can. It's in a fairly specific, but increasingly more common instance: the "melee heavy" party. I'll give you an example:

NIN/WAR
NIN/WAR
THF
THF
BLM/WHM
SMN/WHM

As you can see in this setup, you really only have two mp users here, making a full time refresher kind of a waste. Also, most of your BLM nukes are going to be of the smaller variety here, since BLM really shouldn't be going overboard with a NIN tank like the AM MB skillchains you see with PLDs. Since the BLM isn't going to be drawing a lot of aggro here, you don't waste a lot of mp healing him. Which leaves you free to concentrate on things like Ecliptic Howl and Earthen Ward. Fight crabs or beetles using this setup and Aspir will take care of a lot of the mp refresh issues should they even arise. In ths party, you also want to use a lot of cookies and chocolates for mp refresh while healing. They don't last long, but stacks of 99 tend to cost roughly the same as stacks of 12 for other foods.


To give you an idea of what we can really do in a party, let me show you the group I was in last night. This is about the closest I tend to get to playing pure-SMN at my low 50s lvl, but it does give a good idea of what we're capable of in the mid-ranges.

Group Setup:
NIN/WAR
RDM/BLM
BLM/WHM
SMN/WHM
RNG/NIN
SAM/WAR

Now, RDM was 55 which kind of killed our exp/hr gain on Kuftal Crabs, but we did manage to chain pull with this setup to the point where my downtime was solely based on how long it took the RNG to run out and find a new target. My contribution was Ecliptic Howl at the beginning of the fight, and Earthen Ward about a minute later and again if needed later on. On one out of every 4 fights, I actually had to heal the NIN or BLM, but once these two figured out how to balance aggro, I usually spent the entire camp with 80%-full mp. If your NIN knows what they're doing, Ecliptic Howl can drastically reduce the amount of time you spend trying to heal everyone, especially if you're below 50% moonphase.


Just remember that there are three main support jobs:
RDM->BRD->SMN
The order from left to right is from most benefit to mp users to most benefit to melees. RDM tends to be more use to casters, since they don't use big group buffs and haste chains tend to screw up refresh chains. BRD is pretty much the support king, and we tend to be able to put our Bloodpacts to best use when there are a lot of people around to haste/acc buff/etc.