[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Murphie

ITT Shrayn_lolsam tells us what s/he thinks!

I'm still oblivious as to what his derail has to do with the topic. He's free to think what he wants about me, but I take exception to the notion I crave attention nonetheless. Anyone who says that about me really doesn't know me very well.

Originally Posted by Saren

Don't make it about whm the job.

You had a bad whm. I hate those panic 200HP cure 5 they won't listen if you tell them they are doing a bad job because "I'm keeping people at full health!" and their running out of mp is always someone elses fault or "zomg you can't do above chain 4, I need to rest mp". Whm and sch can work very well together if you have decent people behind both jobs.

I mean I get the feeling, I resent having a rdm in an exp party most of the time because most of the rdms I've partied with in pickup groups have been ruddy awful or decide to be lazy because I'm there. For example, I had a merit party at Mamool Ja staging point with a rdm where I was doing the link handling and sleeping the pets because the rdm just didn't seem to see the need. I've had the odd good one though (one who knows their job, talks to you and watches what's going on) and when you do get a good one and you are against the right mobs, rdm and whm together can be wonderful.

Oh its not really about the WHM job. I'm just extremely efficiency minded and dislike redudancy or awkward/mismatched situations. Additionally, I don't respond well to being ordered around or barked at when I'm already in the situation. The more you do it, the less I'm going to be inclined to help you, much less be polite to you.

WHM and the others didn't even want a part of the argument, which pretty much showed the leader was the only one with a problem. The wasn't really anything amiss about the PT to the rest of us, leader just wanted to be a spaz I guess.

[dirtyclown]

I've read this over a couple times and here's what I'm gathering. Dave decides that he'd rather increase his own damage output rather than play support, assuming that the Paladin and White mage had it locked down. White mage overcures, Paladin whines about not having a refresh battery, Dave simply laughs at them and nukes. The party gets angry that Dave is trying to be a Black mage, nobody's really communicating very well with each other, and everyone involved pretty much fails in all areas save maybe the DDs. We have no proof that your paraphrased quote is true, so the next best guess is that you were probably booted for not using your MP efficiently, as opposed to "not enough". We all have a tendency to skew things in our favor when it comes to this sort of thing. If I were the tank, both you and the White mage would be out on your asses even if I was forced to go do campaigns for exp. Then again, I'm not inclined to bitch when my PT lacks a Red mage, but that's beside the point.

[Karinya]

Hold on... If the PLD was the leader, what was he doing complaining about what jobs were/were not in the party? Who did he think *built* the party? (Unless he inherited it from an earlier leader who left mid-party; I know it pisses me off when someone sticks me with leadership of some half-assed jumble of jobs).

In any case, in a mire pt the pld should have 2 mp/tick guaranteed (unless he's sitting on so many mp sanction isn't ticking), more if he can satisfy parade gorget latent, rest or vermy swap between fights (unlikely in mire, there isn't much of a "between fights"). Setting aside time when he's silenced, that should leave considerable MP for curing. However, if the whm was overcuring that much it might explain why the PLD wasn't. I hate wasting my MP simul-curing - if mine doesn't land first I don't even get any hate, and either way, *someone's* MP is down the drain. If you can't convince the whm to give you some room to work with then you might as well just flash.

Ebullience seems like a bad deal to me outside of magic bursts, compared to Parsimony. But then, I haven't gotten to the level to use it yet. Am I missing something? It looks like the damage boost is not that big compared to cutting the MP cost in half, which allows you to throw a lot more nukes. Unless you have big numbers fever, what's the attraction of Ebullience?

P.S.

Thankfully, imps will be a thing of the past soon.

What makes you think that?

[Taskmage]

What ... the ... fugg ... I thanked dirtyclown.

I haven't fought VT-ITs with enspell since the accuracy change, but remembering what resistant bastards imps are, I doubt that enspell would be hitting for full damage 80% of the time. On the other hand, Ebullience + Fire III on the Jnun seems like a dubious use of mp also, not because of mp efficiency or any such thing, but because Jnun are the fluff chain filler in Caedarva. Additional damage shouldn't have been needed. Jnun were the mobs that I'd take a knee for as a rdm, since I knew the party could survive and keep the chain without any support from me.

Assuming the pld and whm were as bad as you say, I think staying in Addendum White and AoEing buffs would've been the best use of strategems. You can't fix the whm but you can largely mitigate the pld with stoneskin and phalanx.

Disclaimer: I'm not a scholar.

[dirtyclown]

Originally Posted by Taskmage

What ... the ... fugg ... I thanked dirtyclown.

Next thing you know, IceMage and I will be getting along...Ok, maybe not that, but stranger things have happened, right?

[Celeal]

Well.... for PLD/WAR under Imps's Amnesia, basically Cure + Flash is the first reliable hate tool, sword swing comes second (for hybrid setup), third comes from Job Ability or WS for entry point of each battle. If done properly, the PLD/WAR in Imps camp should be the *main healer* (main curer), while the main healer should prioritize on Silena and Haste, and dump Cures which PLD cannot cover, like big nukes or sleepaga from the Imps.

[TheGrandMom]

Originally Posted by dirtyclown

I've read this over a couple times and here's what I'm gathering. Dave decides that he'd rather increase his own damage output rather than play support, assuming that the Paladin and White mage had it locked down. White mage overcures, Paladin whines about not having a refresh battery, Dave simply laughs at them and nukes. The party gets angry that Dave is trying to be a Black mage, nobody's really communicating very well with each other, and everyone involved pretty much fails in all areas save maybe the DDs. We have no proof that your paraphrased quote is true, so the next best guess is that you were probably booted for not using your MP efficiently, as opposed to "not enough". We all have a tendency to skew things in our favor when it comes to this sort of thing. If I were the tank, both you and the White mage would be out on your asses even if I was forced to go do campaigns for exp. Then again, I'm not inclined to bitch when my PT lacks a Red mage, but that's beside the point.

Oh lord, this thread made my day. LOL I think I laughed at this post till my sides ached!

Originally Posted by Taskmage

What ... the ... fugg ... I thanked dirtyclown.

I'll get your meds for you....wait I'll get you mine, they're stronger.

Originally Posted by Taskmage

I haven't fought VT-ITs with enspell since the accuracy change, but remembering what resistant bastards imps are, I doubt that enspell would be hitting for full damage 80% of the time. On the other hand, Ebullience + Fire III on the Jnun seems like a dubious use of mp also, not because of mp efficiency or any such thing, but because Jnun are the fluff chain filler in Caedarva. Additional damage shouldn't have been needed. Jnun were the mobs that I'd take a knee for as a rdm, since I knew the party could survive and keep the chain without any support from me.

Assuming the pld and whm were as bad as you say, I think staying in Addendum White and AoEing buffs would've been the best use of strategems. You can't fix the whm but you can largely mitigate the pld with stoneskin and phalanx.

Disclaimer: I'm not a scholar.

I totally agree.

Originally Posted by dirtyclown

Next thing you know, IceMage and I will be getting along...Ok, maybe not that, but stranger things have happened, right?

<cue music> Dreamer...nothing but a dreamer...

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Nuriko

I think the point to not pulling on RNG was you're already racking up a lot of damage, who needs the extra hate from pulling? As for enspells, they are MUCH weaker than MrMageo thinks without native skill on the recipients.

That, and RNG has E rated evasion and thus has to rely on Shadows where as a THF will have A+ on top of 4 traits and well, if they get hit it's their problem >_>

[Jensen]

i may have a bias due to being a DNC but i know i hate it when SCH use enspells and half the partys im in they are told not to do it at all because it over rights sambas which are alot more useful(at least in my eyes) and tbh i Would pull before a rng did anyday i even forced a rnger to let me pull once because they ate my tp and mages mp because of the eva issue they have while i had B+ with 3 traits to it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Assuming the pld and whm were as bad as you say, I think staying in Addendum White and AoEing buffs would've been the best use of strategems. You can't fix the whm but you can largely mitigate the pld with stoneskin and phalanx.

Well, I'd agree, but what good does the mitigation do when the PLD makes no genuine effort to tank to start with? I still don't think running into AoE range constantly would have been a great idea since Amnesia would have knocked out a subsequent Strategem for a signifigant period of time. Silence wasn't an issue, I just bring drops for that. I could have gotten Phalanx off a lot, probably, but I have doubts about Stoneskin since the casting time is quite a bit longer.

At any rate it was the first PT I really ever had problems with since taking up the job. I've had PTs with weak melees, but that's never as bad as a weak healer or tank.

i may have a bias due to being a DNC but i know i hate it when SCH use enspells and half the partys im in they are told not to do it at all because it over rights sambas which are alot more useful(at least in my eyes) and tbh i Would pull before a rng did anyday i even forced a rnger to let me pull once because they ate my tp and mages mp because of the eva issue they have while i had B+ with 3 traits to it.

Yeah, SCH and DNC don't mesh on proc effects. I tend to see Enspells as novelty unless the mob has a weakness to a specific element and the matching day happens to be going on. I don't use then with a DNC present. I'd only disagree about Sambas in the case of Haste Samba, which is pretty weak, Drain and Aspir Samba would be more worthwhile.

[IfritnoItazura]

En-spell and fast hitting melees seem like a perfect fit, though; if your line up has NIN, MNK, THF, it just may be worth the Stratagem. On the other hand, Imps have so little HP, I wouldn't bother with that; save that for something with a bit more life bar, like Hilltrolls and Abraxas/Tavnazian Ram.

Stoneskin may be worth risking Amnesia for, in a party without RDM to silence Imps. Thundaga II followed by Firaga II followed by Thundaga II isn't very good for mages' MP flow.

Oh, and I'd use SCH/WHM over SCH/RDM for Imps; it'd be silly not to have access to Silena and Erase at all times, and have to fiddle with Stratagems just to use those spells. Not sure if I'd nuke the Jnuns or anything without Parsimony, especially in a party where the main healer mismanage his MP consistently. May sound a bit strange, but the more wasteful the healer is with his MP, the more important it is for the backup healer to keep an MP reserve, IMO.

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

En-spell and fast hitting melees seem like a perfect fit, though; if your line up has NIN, MNK, THF, it just may be worth the Stratagem. On the other hand, Imps have so little HP, I wouldn't bother with that; save that for something with a bit more life bar, like Hilltrolls and Abraxas/Tavnazian Ram.

Which are also targets where you won't need to worry much about walking into aoe range to pull off the accession+self-only buff. This doesn't have much relevance to a mire party though.

Stoneskin may be worth risking Amnesia for, in a party without RDM to silence Imps. Thundaga II followed by Firaga II followed by Thundaga II isn't very good for mages' MP flow.

Even RDM are often going to fail to silence imps - the little bastards are as bad as ahriman. If not for the resist rate you might as well have silenced them yourself, with either /whm or /rdm. Stunning is more reliable, if you have access to it. (SCH/DRK? Well, not at 68, anyway.)

I don't think one stoneskin would stop that kind of aoe spam anyway.

In any case, you can accession + cure from a distance, I think, or if you're /whm, just curaga (or penury + curaga, or rapture + curaga, or accession + regen2...) and avoid getting into amnesia/silence range. Multiple people getting hit doesn't have to be bad for MP, if you know how to deal with it efficiently.

None of those methods have the insane casting time of accession+stoneskin, which you almost can't get off at all without also using celerity (and then for a sub-70 you're talking 2:40 worth of stratagems).

Oh, and I'd use SCH/WHM over SCH/RDM for Imps; it'd be silly not to have access to Silena and Erase at all times, and have to fiddle with Stratagems just to use those spells.

Well then, obviously you wouldn't be enspelling anyone, would you? I'd probably agree, except I don't see what use Erase would be (AFAIK, amnesia is not erasable). But definitely (IMO) addendum:white does not remove the usefulness of /whm as a source of na spells. It just means you have *some* access to them even when you're not /whm.

Not sure if I'd nuke the Jnuns or anything without Parsimony, especially in a party where the main healer mismanage his MP consistently. May sound a bit strange, but the more wasteful the healer is with his MP, the more important it is for the backup healer to keep an MP reserve, IMO.

I don't think it's strange at all; when there's only one healer you can trust, that healer had better be ready for trouble (like an imp popping in your face during a fight and resisting sleep).

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

En-spell and fast hitting melees seem like a perfect fit, though; if your line up has NIN, MNK, THF, it just may be worth the Stratagem. On the other hand, Imps have so little HP, I wouldn't bother with that; save that for something with a bit more life bar, like Hilltrolls and Abraxas/Tavnazian Ram.

Given there was a stead mix of imp and Jnun in this PT, I just didn't see it as worth it at all. Jnun were far too infrequent and Imps too resistant to magic to make it worth it.

Stoneskin may be worth risking Amnesia for, in a party without RDM to silence Imps. Thundaga II followed by Firaga II followed by Thundaga II isn't very good for mages' MP flow.

Oh I'm not arguing that it isn't worth in general. It just wasn't worth it in this PT because I had no idea where the hate would go next. Not knowing if that imp is going to stay on the PLD or not is a major factor for me. Accession buffs pull a nice amount of hate, I can usually watch and know when to go, but when no hate tools are being used, i can't even be sure that the WHM won't pull hate before I will.

Also, I can pop Accession before I run into AoE range, so that's not a major problem, its just the frustration of getting silenced along the way.

If everyone gets silenced and amnesia because the tank never tried to hold hate, thats a bad place to be. Inevitably, people will run out of echo drops in this camp.

Oh, and I'd use SCH/WHM over SCH/RDM for Imps; it'd be silly not to have access to Silena and Erase at all times, and have to fiddle with Stratagems just to use those spells. Not sure if I'd nuke the Jnuns or anything without Parsimony, especially in a party where the main healer mismanage his MP consistently. May sound a bit strange, but the more wasteful the healer is with his MP, the more important it is for the backup healer to keep an MP reserve, IMO.

It might have been better at 68, yeah, at 70, Strategems are plentiful and recharge quickly enough you'll usually have time to spare an Addendum White if you're in a situation you need to switch, by the same token, I have Erase from Addendum White and Dispel from /RDM without having to activate Addendum Black. If I'm in Addendum White most of the time, I feel RDM is the better choice so I have more options.

IF I'm the main healer, nuking isn't a priority for me, no matter how good I might nuke.

[MrMageo]

You werent invited for free nuking.
You werent invited to main heal

You were main support, that means supporting the party.


In regards to your SS comment. If the MOB is bouncing around alot all the more reason to have stoneskin up, regardless if you can predict where it is bouncing next. If the whm pulls hate who cares they should have SS up anyhow to take a couple hits.

Just admit you made an error and move on, everyone can see it wasnt just the party you were in, you caused problems too. Learn from your mistake and move on, instead of trying to defend your position of doing a bad job.
______________________________

Originally Posted by Malacite

That, and RNG has E rated evasion and thus has to rely on Shadows where as a THF will have A+ on top of 4 traits and well, if they get hit it's their problem >_>

Acctually I put this because BBQ said a few months ago he dosent pull on RNG because it isnt what the job was meant to do. When Selphie and I tried to say yes RNG is designed to pull thats why it has a ranged attack BBQ went on his typical defensve.

[Silent Howler]

Originally Posted by MrMageo

You werent invited for free nuking.
You werent invited to main heal

You were main support, that means supporting the party.

Quote please.