Scholar: Crowd Control Evolved

[MrMageo]

pld smn and blu come to mind

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

pld smn and blu come to mind

PLD is defined as a tank, pretty much anything it would use as a subjob supplants that function. PLD loses nothing in the way of being a tank and if it does in Sea, its to mobs no tanks are desireable for, like Yovra.

SMN has Pacts, hence, it has a weath of different JAs from just the two Pact types alone. Also Spirit Siphon.

Blue Mage gets job traits from set spells. Also Chain and Burst Affinity and merittable JAs.

[MrMageo]

im just saying they all have A- and no native melee traits

[Karinya]

If this is the direction SE wants to go, there's still a lot of work that needs to be done on making high end jug pet materials available. The changes that have been made haven't been enough in that department. The other updates have been nice, but this is one concern that hasn't been fully addressed.

Agreed. But I'm not sure this is SE's fault - I've been trying to unload some king locusts for a while now (got them while doing the harvesting campaign op) and nobody is buying. There's no traffic in those items, but whether it's a lack of supply or a lack of demand is not exactly clear.

I generally find that when there's *no* traffic in something, it's a lack of demand that is the problem; if there is demand, someone will rush in and provide the supply. If there is *limited* traffic it might just be something like behemoth hides where there aren't enough sources of it. But locusts and moles are far, far deader on the AH than behemoth hides. It's entirely likely that whoever is doing HELM and getting those items is NPCing them or throwing them away because they know nobody will buy. I'll probably end up doing that myself, after losing some gil on AH fees first. So next time why wouldn't I go straight to the NPC?

As long as BST are content to use Carrie, Carrie and more Carrie, it's hardly surprising that cooks aren't going to buy up lots of CoP jug ingredients and make more CoP jugs. (Even though almost anything will do better in a party/alliance environment where the pet is not tanking than a crab. At least, if it's not crippled by unnecessary level caps.)

If SE doesn't want us charming mobs in endgame zones, then they need to give the job native melee traits to compensate for it, or Accuracy Bonus at least. BST is the only melee job in the game I know of with A- skill in a weapon and no native melee job traits.

How about if they give you a non-charm-dependent way of getting a pet, on a shorter timer than DRG or PUP? And then some ways to keep it alive?

You haven't addressed the question: exactly what mobs are you going to charm that won't completely unbalance the zone? Endgame zones (I assume you mean things like Dynamis, Limbus, Salvage, Einherjar), like BCNMs, have a limited number of mob spawns and getting rid of them typically equals winning. If you can get rid of them by having them kill each other, that's much safer and more efficient than fighting them yourself. A few mobs have good enough drops that you wouldn't want to risk giving them up - but others are just in the way.

BST *can* have pets in endgame zones - that's part of the reason behind the Call Beast improvements. BST + Call Beast isn't quite the same as DRG + Call Wyvern, the pet is stronger and the master possibly a bit weaker. But the pet is not negligible; BST can't be a WAR with a pet any more than PUP can be a MNK with a pet, and for the same reason: pets matter.

Having a pet is clearly part of the core design of BST - it's right there in the name. But why would you assume that it's always intended to be a *charmed* pet? Or that it's some kind of nerf when it isn't?

BSTs can and do charm in Campaign, but I assume you're not counting that as an "endgame zone" - with some justification. I don't know about Assault or Nyzul.


(Yes, I realize this whole post is about BST on a thread theoretically about SCH. But the OP brought it up.)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I was more alluding to endgame zones as in Sky, Sea and HNM camps. Barring what you find in DA, its either uncharmable, out of reach or its too weak to throw at an HNM.

Wyrms fights, that's less of an issue a BST can find something to hurl at wyrm in some of the zones they appear, barring Ouryu v2 and Vrtra, but at Jormy or Tiamat, they have something to bring along. Hydra, Cerby have options, but not Khimeria.

Sky its just birds. That's hit or miss and gods chew those up. No options inside the shrine. No options anywhere in Sea, which is lame.

Instances I honestly don't expecet many charmable options, particularly when most of them favor complete elimination to start with or need certain mobs killed to fufill a criteria or time extension.

[nanatsu]

im just saying they all have A- and no native melee traits

They aren't melee jobs either. Kitten specifically said that BST are the only MELEE job with only an A- skill in a weapon and no native melee job traits.

[MrMageo]

I dunno i consider blu and pld to be melee jobs 1 is DD the other a tank but they both engage weapons to a mob, so yes they are melee. Hell even I melee on my smn solo self SC ftw.

[Dranzia]

I'd consider BLU a melee, as it can participate in SC and deal decent DoT with its weapon.

However, (like BBQ said, see above...) spell combos still give it certain Job Traits, such as Attk Bonus, Acc Bonus, Counter, etc etc. Thus, even though I feel BLU is a melee job to a certain extent, it still falls under the "has melee Job Traits" that BBQ mentioned.

[IfritnoItazura]

I don't see how it would, B+ skill magic isn't exactly the same problem as B skill melee and even that is rather exaggerated by players. Additionally, the +skill gear out there for mages is a tad more abundant +skill gear for weapons. SCH AF body helps close the gap rather well seeing as it pushes +15 skill to Enfeebling, Dark and Elemental magic with Dark Arts active. Depending on where you are, there's also the Master Caster Bracelets to consider.

Regarding KS30 (Operation Desert Swarm), the problem for RDM is the building resist to sleep.

As RDM, I have +15 skill from AF body, +7 from Spider Torque, and +7 from Master Caster's Combat Bracelet. (Don't think I had HQ Dark Staff back then, though.) That's on top of native A+ skill and 4 merits in Enfeebling Magic.

Even with all that, things were a bit dicey as the sole crowd controller on RDM/BLM, since they build resist fast and the scorpions can, well, swarm you.

AoE Gravity would give SCH a great boon for safety, but SCH will be limited to playing off of timers for two Sleeps (Sleep I and Sleep II) instead of three like RDM/BLM. It sounds doable, but needs someone to go test it out.

I'm looking at Elemental and Enfeebling merits mainly. I have my doubts how worthwhile meritting enhancing would be and don't think doing it just for stoneskin is that great of an idea. I may consider sparing a few merits for Dark, though.

Why Dark?

[Naheo]

I dunno i consider blu and pld to be melee jobs 1 is DD the other a tank but they both engage weapons to a mob, so yes they are melee. Hell even I melee on my smn solo self SC ftw.

1.) Learn to type.
2.) Blue Mage. Blue. Mage. Mage.

[MrMageo]

/slap the above poster
______________________________
summoner. summon.

on another note

I wish Brenner/Ballista were still played en mass. SCH would be awesome addition to it, almost unfair.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

If brenner and ballista didn't have gear swap penalties, people would probably play it. As its stands, most people can't be bothered to write macros just for PvP.

And Blue Mage is still a mage. Its the BLM of Physical magic with a few more stuns in its spell list. They spend more time using physical magic than swinging their swords, hence, they are a mage.

And yes, summoners summon. Its all the last one in my PT did, only stopping to cure because, apparently no one but me can stand to see a PLD drop below 80% HP. I can and I'm the main healer. PLD need that gap in his HP to pull hate, doesn't hurt to let a melee get smacked around a little either, if the PLD cures him, the PLD gets hate for it. PT dynamics people, get with it.

[BurningPanther]

I think the point Mageo was trying to make was that being a mage and being a DD are not mutually exclusive. damage dealing is damage dealing, whether by weapon or by magic. Seeing as how both BLU and BLM deal scads of damage, they qualify as DD, even if they are mages.

[MrMageo]

Kinda my point, but the issue I was hitting on was jobs with A- - A+ melee traits that dont have any natural traits to boost them.

BST (Axe)- Gets nothing
SMN (Staff)- Gets nothing
PLD (Sword)- Gets nothing
BLU (Sword)- Gets nothing

You can rightfully argue that BLU can obtain them through spell combinations, however this is not natural its no different then subbing a job to attain these unattainable traits. If player x is missing 1 spell for the combo he still is without it. (you can also argue it is a mage but it gets no traits here either)

You can rightfully argue that SMN does not melee so it serves no purpose to give it traits, I agree. However SMN still poses skill with a staff, yet has no traits. (Also using BP's is not a trait it is an ability, much like a beasts Sic ability)

You can argue a PLD does not fit the term of DD again I agree, however it posses at least an A skill in 3 different weapons, yet gets no melee traits. (Shield Mastery is a defensive ability not a melee trait.)

Melee- To engage an enemy with use of a weapon (DNC,PLD,RDM,BST)
DD- To deal heavy damage to an enemy (BLU,BLM,DRK,SAM,WAR,MNK,RNG)

There is a fine line between the two terms and personally I dont like when the line gets glossed over. (mostly because so many assume its rdm melee is lol because it dosent put up high numbers, it is a melee job not a DD)


As for Balista/Brenner I would love for SE to fix it so its fun again.

1. Allow equip swaping as a settable option
2. Hold weekly/monthly tournaments (LS vs LS, PvP, Nation vs Nation)
3. Keep record of Wins/losses
4. Reward weekly/monthly winners with some type of reward (items/gil/xp scrolls)
5. Add more area for more mes at any time.
7. Point System (like assualt) to obtain some items or other rewards.

[Armando]

Mageo, it doesn't matter. You're arguing a point no one made. BBQ specifically said "MELEE job with an A- skill in a weapon." It was obviously used in the context of a job whose primary function requires trying to maximize melee damage, and that clearly rules out SMN. On top of that, SMN doesn't have A- Staff Skill, only B. PLD has the only A- Staff Skill in the game.

It also doesn't matter whether a BLU has to set his spells for a combo or not, it doesn't change the fact that spell combos are native to the BLU job and BLU has access to melee traits with or without a sub job, and naked. PLD gets Shield Mastery (which is both an offensive and defensive trait; if you don't think it's offensive, you've never played PLD and don't know how much extra TP it racks up over time.)

P.S. I disagree with categorizing BLU as a mage. It's very clearly a hybrid job, and though the bulk of its damage comes from MP, ironically most of that MP gets turned into physical damage, and a good BLU will also do a substantial amount of damage with his sword. It's undeniably part melee, and that's something simply labelling it a mage doesn't convey.