[Armando]

(non-elemental, very rare on multihit as it may only crit on one of the blows)

Again, according to whom? Multi-hit crit WS like Rampage or Vorpal Blade can score multiple crits.

Then you have the spikes of 1300+ damage. If already showing that double attacking (noted by the additional 1-2 TP gained after the WS), then where does the additional damage come from?

Could just be luck. Every hit has variance. While your average may be 500, your best might be 600. If you DA, you could roll high on one hit and low on the other. If you're unlucky, you could roll low on both. If you're lucky, you could roll high on both, giving the illusion of a damage spike.

[Tokitung]

Sry, I editted my last post, which mention that not all WS can crit, i.e. Sidewinder.

[hexx]

Originally Posted by Armando

I'm not a SAM. I can't test it. All I know is that, by default, no WS can crit unless the description says so. This is a general truth. There could be an exception. I don't know. But you're gonna have to show proof.

You put it best, YOURE NOT A SAM, and yet youre arguing with two 75SAMs here. For one, we all know SAM is SE's pet and has been buffed up quite a bit. I tend to go SAM/NIN because rarely can a tank hold hate against me (enmity merits and the like =/) and when I see these sudden spikes of damage (where no DA can take place due to lack of /war or DA gear) I find myself believing more and more that ws CAN crit even if it doesnt say so in its description. if you read carefully, ws like Vorpal Blade say "Chance of crit varies with TP." All that means is that it has a higher chance of landing a crit based on the TP. You cant blame these sudden spikes on damage variance.

[Armando]

You put it best, YOURE NOT A SAM, and yet youre arguing with two 75SAMs here.

Don't even. I've argued with 75 MNKs, 75 THFs, 75 NINs, 75 PLDs, 75 RDMs...it doesn't mean jack shit. Not only does it not mean much of anything, you'd be amazed how many 75's don't know much about the game. Not that I'm implying you two are that way, mind you. Point is, I know what I'm talking about, regardless of whether I'm 75 or not. I don't need to be 75 to know how the game works, nor do I need to be a SAM to understand game mechanics that are universal.

WS can't crit unless the description says so. It's a fact. Any WS that does (I'm not aware of any,) is a rare exception to the rule. This is a fact. Either SAM WS are a rare exception or you're wrong.

You will never get Fast Blade to crit without forcing it with SA. You will never get Shield Break to crit. You will never get Hard Slash to crit. It's how the game works.

[hexx]

Originally Posted by Armando

Don't even. I've argued with 75 MNKs, 75 THFs, 75 NINs, 75 PLDs, 75 RDMs...it doesn't mean jack shit. I don't need to be 75 to know how the game works, nor do I need to be a SAM to understand game mechanics that are universal.

WS can't crit unless the description says so. It's a fact. Any WS that does (I'm not aware of any,) is a rare exception to the rule. This is a fact. Either SAM WS are a rare exception or you're wrong.

You will never get Fast Blade to crit without forcing it with SA. You will never get Shield Break to crit. You will never get Hard Slash to crit. It's how the game works.

You keep saying we're wrong..........yet all you could drum up as a counter argument is damage variance........come on man.......seriously. Im not saying you cant argue a job just cuz you havent leveled it, but you also cant say you know the in's and out's of it until you DO level it.

Simply put, the damage differential is too high for it to be simple variance and my crit build says a lot when my gekkos are doing 1k+ w/o /thf or /war.

[Tokitung]

I am not arguing, I'm debating. The difference is the ability to understand ones views/facts/experience and to take them into account rather than just saying "No, your wrong."

Where does SE explicitley state that WS cannot crit? As well, how do you explain the damage output difference when a War uses his 2 hour Mighty Strikes (Every hit criticals) and his WS damage gains a major boost? Again, I believe that the text stating "Increase chance of critical hits" merely means that it will grant a higher than average chance of a crit.

Look at magic. Did people even know that magic could "crit" until they put the adjustment onto armor/weapons? Or did they mearly explain it by "a random variation".

[Armando]

You keep saying we're wrong..........yet all you could drum up as a counter argument is damage variance........come on man.......seriously.

I've done and recorded over 200 Fast Blades under controlled conditions. Not one of them crit'd. I could pull up the numbers but they wouldn't mean anything to you, though, since you're not convinced by the formulas in the first place.

Simply put, the damage differential is too high for it to be simple variance and my crit build says a lot when my gekkos are doing 1k+ w/o /thf or /war.

Are you aware that your damage for a single hit WS can easily vary by 300 points?

[Tokitung]

Again, it may not be all WS, i.e. Sidewinder. Also, check my last post, specifically referencing War 2hour.

Also, I have Rng, Mnk, Sam, Bst, and Blu leveled to 75 and many others leveled to 37+ (Nin @ 62). With the multipled variety of WS I have performed, I can say that not all WS can crit, but there are some that can. Also, look at "forcing a crit with SA." Not all WS can be "forced" to crit. So if a crit was completely impossible on it's own, why would you be able to SA with it? SA just means it will crit for sure, but only if it already has the ability to crit on it's own (SA> Tachi-Gekko = Yes, SA> Tachi-Koki = No)

[Armando]

Where does SE explicitley state that WS cannot crit?

Nowhere. SE sucks at stating things explicitly. It's even more common for them to mislabel things. They describe Shell as increasing Magic Defense when in fact it has nothing to do at all with Magic Defense Bonus, and is in fact "Magic Damage Taken -X%", which is something else entirely (e.g. MDB doesn't reduce Skillchain damage or Breath damage; Magic Damage Taken -X% will.) They also mislabeled Sidewinder. If I recall correctly the in-game description states it does quadruple damage, when in fact it does quintuple damage.

As well, how do you explain the damage output difference when a War uses his 2 hour Mighty Strikes (Every hit criticals) and his WS damage gains a major boost?

Again, every hit has variance (even if it's a critical hit.) The more hits in a WS, the more the damage can fluctuate. Not only do you have a lot of fluctuation due to each hit fluctuating, which means you can reach all-time lows or highs if every hit rolls low or high, but the chances of landing all of your hits drop with each hit in a WS, and your odds of triggering a Double Attack increase. As a matter of fact it's possible to score 2 Double Attacks in the same WS.

Look at magic. Did people even know that magic could "crit" until they put the adjustment onto armor/weapons? Or did they mearly explain it by "a random variation".

Magic has never scored critical hits. The new Wise Strap and Witch Sash items give you a random chance to get +10 MAB on a nuke. Without these items, you will never get this supposed "magical critical hit." In fact, as long as you don't get resisted, nukes will always do the same damage. The only exception is that you can randomly get a damage boost or reduction if you're casting spells strong or weak to the current day or weather.

I may sound confrontational but these topics have been beaten to death in other forums in the past. It's nothing new. I don't expect anyone to know all this stuff but it gets aggravating to have to prove things that have already been proven time and time again.

EDIT: To prove my point: Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI

Here's an Allakhazam thread from early 2007 dealing with this very same topic. In the thread, there is a link to another thread that was made in the BLU forums that came to the same conclusion: with the exception of Feather Storm, which is a ranged attack and not melee, no BLU spell would crit unless the description said it had a chance to crit.

[Lmnop]

To give a more complete definition:

Melee WSs cannot crit unless they are of the "critical chance varies with TP" variety, but may have a crit forced on them via outside factors. This means Mighty Strikes, Sneak Attack (as Armando mentioned), and Trick Attack from a 60+ (Assassin) THF.

It's unfortunate that he didn't back up his argument with facts, but the truth is, this is one of those things that people tested the crap out of 3.5 years ago and we've all lost track of the jp blogs that had the data posted. If you care and are lucky, maybe Armando held onto all of his data for his 200 Fast Blades.

Originally Posted by FF wiki

Only weapon skills that say "Chance of critical varies with TP" can have a critical hit within the WS without forced critical (i.e. Sneak Attack or Mighty Strikes).

Calculating Weapon Skill Damage - FFXIclopedia - a Wikia Gaming wiki

Though you'll notice in the discussion pages people who sound just like you guys. I can't really up and say "shut up, guys! That's not how it works!" but... well, guys. That's how it works.

One thing I'll concede:

It's never been tested (to my knowledge) if the +critical hit rate from items/merits create a chance for WSs to crit. I honestly wouldn't be terribly surprised but don't bank on it.

Sneak Attack 300% Steel Cyclone on Ixion with double minuets and attack food. Under all those conditions, I've still managed an 800 damage difference w/out double attacking.

That's on a WS already crit'ing. The damage variance you guys are speaking of is odd, but doesn't specifically point to a crit occurring.

OPINION: the damage formula seems to get "sticky" to certain values. Either i'm making this up or it's part of a phenomena that someone else can explain better. What I mean to say is: you'll be hitting a bad guy rather consistently for 80-100 damage, and then suddenly hit for 52. Or maybe 140. If you just looked at the numbers, you'd say "yes, 140. that's a crit". But it's not. I wonder if this is the sort of thing that causes WS-crit-look-a-likes.

Or maybe i'm just full of it.

[Armando]

Fortunately this sort of thing happens a lot so I tend to keep bookmarks of important threads. Here you go.

Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI

It's from early 2007. Within that thread there are also references on an earlier thread in the BLU forums that came to the same conclusion with BLU spells - with the exception of Feather Storm, which counts as a ranged attack and not a melee attack, none of the BLU spells tested would score a crit unless the description said they could.

I believe I recall similar debates broke out in BG as well, but I didn't save those because the Alla thread is sufficient proof in general. But I still have those 200 Fast Blades if anyone really cares.

[Tokitung]

It may a trait granted by merits, as I began Sam after I had merits into Crit+. But, if having those merits does allow for certain WS to be granted the ability to crit, then using items and dex increase to enhance that ability would prove more viable that the +4 str granted from said legs.

As for the forumlas, while helpful in guidance, they are not concrete. Otherwise there would be no "unexplained variance". And 200 Fast Blades is the parsing of a single WS, were there any merits and/or gear that enhance crits? Do a parsing of different jobs/different WS with adding/subtracting merits/gear that increase crits.

[Lmnop]

Actually, they are concrete.

Only extenuating circumstances (exceptions to the rules or traits/abilities/gear that create exceptions) make them unreliable. And that simply means we need those exceptions MAPPED. Hop to.

[Tokitung]

Originally Posted by Lmnop

Actually, they are concrete.

Only extenuating circumstances (exceptions to the rules or traits/abilities/gear that create exceptions) make them unreliable. And that simply means we need those exceptions MAPPED. Hop to.

A concrete BASE. Not a concrete formula for a 75 who has Traits/Abilities/Gear. If we were talking to a new char who just started, it is a great beginning. Once you hit End Game though, the lines are smeared by many different modifiers.

[Lmnop]

I just read that AK thread: those thieves were testing with full crit merits so that plan's bunk.

And no, it's not a good BASE. It was mapped out and proven with level 75 characters. Most data for this game is gathered by level 75 characters who care about tweeking their level 75 characters. The other 74 levels were probably only ever tested for completeness sake.

It's concrete.